TWU negotiations.........what?

[Frank Szabo]

I'd like to hear what the company would have to have in return from us to reinstate the 2001 contract - all holidays, vacation, payrates, etc. and et al.

I'm sure they would for a price (bean counters always have a price) but I'd like to hear what that might be - our so-called "representation" doesn't seem to be interested in going there.

 

[odie01]

That's about to get changed to: "Being required to work on a first or second day off shall be considered OT..." I'll bet...

And the misery of working on the weekends really can be minimized by examples pointed out by another poster on this thread. A lot of carriers come up with schedules that keep the base operating 24/7, but offer one weekend day off, or a 4/10 sch to cover weekends. Point is, there's ways to spread the misery around, so no one dock or crew gets hosed weekly. This is a very doable deal with the company for some wins in compensation.

The line guys on nights really get the business. In most all cases, you're stuck on mids for a very long time. As if that's not bad enough, your days off suck big time.
This goes on forever... It takes A LOT of seniority for a guy to get off nights and get a piece of the weekends on second(retirement age for day shift!). Which...is why I too, feel like seperate agreements for Line and OH may have some kind of merit to it. Those that haven't "been there"...it really does suck.

Seperate agreements betweeen line and OH are not going to happen this contract, but if we get another contract before we retire that may be a good idea. Like I said before, the guys I work with at AFW are not opposed to working the weekends, but if the line is going to get a premium, we would like some sort of compensation for working the weekends. Most jobs that work weekends and Mids, get weekend premiums and shift differential, all the more reason to get rid of the twu for not realizing our undesirable shifts that go un-compensated for, this goes for line and OH. The twu sucks people, get involved with AMP, AMFA, Dog catchers, Pipe fitters, any union that dethrones these crooks, so we can move on and be taken seriously by the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

A quick note about Bob's reply................

There doesn't have to be hoards of technicians overseas doing OH, there just has to be one guy signing for it. AA could fly a 777 to China on a trip and they could do check there or Thailand and do a trip back to the USA...........737's can do a trip to Central America. Then go through a OH check and then do a return trip.

They couldn't equal AA's OH mechs experiance, qaulity or even the convienence, but it is possible.

Possible but whether they can sign for their work or not they need to know how to work with tools, and the airlines arent the only industry that needs such workers.

I can say that bases keeping weekends off and not being labor loaned, is not a strike issue for most line mechs who work weekends and are labor loaned all the time, and if a strike is called (which I doubt/hope doesn't happen) we are going to need to know from the union, what the defining reason we are striking for is.

The question is do they really need weekend coverage when they have the option of fully stffing all three shifts on a five day schedule? If all three shifts were fully staffed and they still could not get the planes out then they may have a point, but they dont. To me it seems that they want to use the weekend coverage until they get caought up, avoiding paying OT on the weekends but then what? Having to work weekends without the line premium (company current table position is $2.55) would motivate the younger workers to go to the line where the company is likely to see shortages in the future.

I agree that we all should have weekends off if possible, we know thats not possible with line operations. It should be possible on the bases, and with B-cks on the line. When I worked AAR we had the weekends off. The fact is that was a reason for rejection but my guess is that the money, or lack there of, was the defining reason for all the NO votes.

 

[Bob Owens]

After reading this, why is there an issue re: 5 day/7 day or whatever? It would appear management can dictate the working hours/shifts/days on/off etc.

Article 3(i) spells out the limitations, its referred to as "the 1/7th rule".

So as you can see the company already has the ability, and does run a 24/7/365 operation in OH, they are just limited on the weekends but as I pointed out before, they havent exhausted their current production capabilities by fully staffing Afternoon and night shifts. They probably never will. So other than having more control just for the sake of it, and possibly as an encouragement for base guys to go to the line I dont see why management wants it so badly. I dont see it really cutting down on OT unless they hire more guys.

 

[Bob Owens]

Seperate agreements betweeen line and OH are not going to happen this contract,

I dont see it ever happening. The pain of concessions seems to have brought about an awareness of the cost of living but the weekend issue may have brought about an awareness about weekend and shift work that has been lacking as well. There should be something substantial for working odd hours and weekends. When I was hired the line premium, for working weekends out in the elements, was 10 cents an hour, or around a half of one percent(.5%). in 2001 it was bumped up to 55 cents or around one and one half a percent(1.5%). Pitiful, so pitiful that over the years thousands have transfered away from their homes and families to work in places like Tulsa where they could work days with Sat Sun off. Most industries have very substantial premiums, in the trades if they work Saturday they get double time and for Sunday they get triple time, in other words if they work the weekend they can make a whole weeks pay in two days, we got one and a half percent extra.

In negotiations past usually thhe line guys reps were very senior fleet service clerks and the base guys had no interest in upping the compensation for working odd hours, especially mids, as it did not affect them or most of their members. The IGM atitude that has peveailed has put us where we are today.

Since I cant figure out why the company needs the Weekend coverage so badly part of me thinks that the reason why they are pushing so hard for it is to aggravate this old wound and cause division between the line and OH. They know the bases feel strongly about it, many relocated to OH in order to work days with weekends off, and they know that the line has always resented the fact that they've never been properly compensated for it. Maybe management feels if the line was led to believe that this was the sole issue holding back financial relief that it would help them slip though a slightly modified version of the failed TA again in August. I know that the close relationship Larry and I have is something that bothers them and they've intentionally been sending field trips from AFW to JFK in order to cause friction between our Locals. Why not consider that all this weekend stuff is just an attempt to cause division?

 

[Buck]

There has to be something more to OH 7-Day coverage. D in TULE is the only 737 7-day coverage in TULE. I believe that there is a reason, like an attempt to see if the company can negotiate it in the contract. The compensation Article 4, in the Ta/d articles has for the line a premium and Geographical pay, while OH a weekend premium of .50. From the actions of local management, it would appear that the company is conducting a testbed for the contract. However this weekend, the managers and a VP are attempting to change the 7-day coverage into a 5/8 working one weekend day or 5/8's for mids and 4/10's with TFS or SMT off.

 

[Hopeful]

There has to be something more to OH 7-Day coverage. D in TULE is the only 737 7-day coverage in TULE. I believe that there is a reason, like an attempt to see if the company can negotiate it in the contract. The compensation Article 4, in the Ta/d articles has for the line a premium and Geographical pay, while OH a weekend premium of .50. From the actions of local management, it would appear that the company is conducting a testbed for the contract. However this weekend, the managers and a VP are attempting to change the 7-day coverage into a 5/8 working one weekend day or 5/8's for mids and 4/10's with TFS or SMT off.

I'm all for 4/10's myself....One less day a week driving (which saves a little bit of gas), One less day a week at work (a biggie for me!) and one more day a week at home with family..(a real biggie.)

 

[Birdman]

However this weekend, the managers and a VP are attempting to change the 7-day coverage into a 5/8 working one weekend day or 5/8's for mids and 4/10's with TFS or SMT off.

Time will tell if the incompetent buffoons have finally come to their senses. Again we have another failed policy that was allowed to drag on until many of the seasoned AMT's had bid out. Don't be surprised when those responsible are promoted to an even higher level of clueless manAAgement.

 

[Interested]

Article 3(i) spells out the limitations, its referred to as "the 1/7th rule".

So as you can see the company already has the ability, and does run a 24/7/365 operation in OH, they are just limited on the weekends but as I pointed out before, they havent exhausted their current production capabilities by fully staffing Afternoon and night shifts. They probably never will. So other than having more control just for the sake of it, and possibly as an encouragement for base guys to go to the line I dont see why management wants it so badly. I dont see it really cutting down on OT unless they hire more guys.

I've heard that it takes 25-30% more people to run a true 7 day coverage line. Not sure if that applies to 4-10's as seven day coverage though.

 

[eolesen]

Assuming production is at the same level, probably not too far off on that. But you'll never see production at the same level unless you also have full support from all of your vendors and the supply chain. Sometimes that's the bigger issue to overcome.

 

[Hackman]

Article 3(i) spells out the limitations, its referred to as "the 1/7th rule".

So as you can see the company already has the ability, and does run a 24/7/365 operation in OH, they are just limited on the weekends but as I pointed out before, they havent exhausted their current production capabilities by fully staffing Afternoon and night shifts. They probably never will. So other than having more control just for the sake of it, and possibly as an encouragement for base guys to go to the line I dont see why management wants it so badly. I dont see it really cutting down on OT unless they hire more guys.

Bob, I can tell you the main reason that AA management will never fully staff a 27/7/365 OH operation. Management and engineering doesn't want to work it themselves. It's just fine to have the AMT's working on undesirable shifts, weekends, and holidays, but you won't get the needed support from engineering or management. On weekends and holidays, they won't be having their golf games, birthday parties, kid events, and family outings on weekends and holidays interupted by supporting the operation. If have found in some (not all, but most) of the docks and shops I have worked, if there is a problem that needs an engineering decision or management needs to make a critical decision on what to do with a part, engine, or aircraft on a weekend or holiday, it frequently waits until a regular work day and the operation is dead in the water right there. Good luck getting them to come in to work off the golf course. This was the main complaint, no support from engineering or management.

Therefore, if management is stating they want a fully staffed 24/7/365 OH operation, ask them why they want it to be a dismal failure on their part.

 

[strikeforce]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits? Give me a break!!! I think this issue should stop before you all look like a bunch of idiots to other airline workers on this forum.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits? Give me a break!!! I think this issue should stop before you all look like a bunch of idiots to other airline workers on this forum.

It's doubtful the company actually wants 24/7/365 as it would be rather expensive but it certainly would be a good gage of what the company union can sell the troops.

The company will pay only a given amount for aircraft maintenance - that figure divided by the number of dues-paying people wanted by the TWU equals concessions. More people employed by American equals less pay and benefits for us and more income for the TWU.

No rocket science here.

 

[Birdman]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits? Give me a break!!! I think this issue should stop before you all look like a bunch of idiots to other airline workers on this forum.

We can stop talking about it but the fact remains that ever since this base was established in 1946 the A&E's, A&P's, and AMT's were paid overtime on the weekends. There have been many efforts lately to change the "corporate culture" with no success. BTW, It has been admitted that the line also has AMT's with weekends off due to the bid process so I'm sure they feel the same way. And yes, there are a bunch of idiots in Tulsa and they couldn't care less if the whole universe knows it.

 

[Buck]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits? Give me a break!!! I think this issue should stop before you all look like a bunch of idiots to other airline workers on this forum.

It is the culture that is bred into OH, as Birdman stated. The AMT's do not have a big problem working a 7-day schedule, however the AO AMT's do have a problem if the culture is not passed to the rest of the operation. I believe that the difference in OH and line pay is a minor issue. Every one of us require some form of cost of living increase. The goal on 1D has been to achieve this requirement of 24/7 for Tulsa but we still require the support to OH the aircraft. The TWU is not even considering the non-AMT work 24/7 unless OT is offered. And as an example, the Industrial Unionists have watered down the A&P tickets to the point where contractually Facilities Maintenance Journeyman receive two License Premiums for possibly holding 1 ticket. One thing that is forgotten in Tulsa, is that seniority does not seem to mean much to the younger mechanics. Maybe they need a taste of the line?