TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

Unfortunately, there is no mechanism to remove the trash infesting the International - those people have made certain they're not accountable to the membership.

Look at it this way - if the Congress and Senate made laws/rules that actually made them accountable to the electorate, how long do you think any of them would last?

Just as dealing with corporate executive trash, the only way to get the attention of these people is to threaten their financial security; i. e., find another union.

In as far as retaining their position Congress and the SEnate ARE accountable-we get the option to vote them out at the end of their terms. However with the TWU the members are never given the option.

With the TWU we are removed from power. If we were to compare the TWU structure to our semi-democratic government structure would be as if the Governers of each state (who we vote for)chose those served at the Federal level, but how each Governor voted was kept secret from the public but not from Federal officials. Thats what we have with the TWU where the International is chosen by elected local officials who are subordinate to the International. There is no published record of how each representative votes. Only pass or fail.

I agree wholeheartedly with your closing statement. Threatening the unions finaces is the only way to get results since they can not be held accountable any other way.

 

[Bob Owens]

Your memory is failing - no worry, it happens as we age. By early 2003, when you voted on the concessions, USAir and UAL had already filed Ch 11 (both in 2002, IIRC) and both had obtained at least temporary paycuts from their unions.

True, but you left out the fact that the permanent concessions that AA won outside of BK were by far in excess of what had been temporarily imposed on those in BK. In fact other carriers had to return for more cuts in order to compete with AA. Even after several visits some of those who went BK retain things that AA workers lost. The only thing that AA workers kept (for now) was their defined benifit pension and the only reason they kept it was because it was cheaper than switching to the defined contribution plans the other carriers went to.

AMR had about $1.2 billion in the bank on 3/31/03, and had less than that when the concessions were imposed. Not $3 billion.

Thats right, and those who where at AA in the days of Crandall remembered how Crandall bragged about his $500million "War Chest" . So a few years later with more than double that AA is broke? BS.

The fact is that even back in 1997, when AA was making record profits they claimed that they were nearly bankrupt. They claimed that within weeks of a pilot strike the company would be liquidated.

Dont worry about AA's finances-you cant do anything about them anyway, thats what Arpey and his gang are paid for. Work harder for less? Or in the companys terms "pull together-win together"-its a fools folly.They can piss away money faster than we can save or generate it. Just concern ourselves with getting what we need. When they cite fuel costs-cite your gas or electric bill. When they cite operating costs cite our living expensse. When they cite health care costs cite YOUR health care costs.

Give their numbers just as much consideration as they give ours-none.

We are not responsible for their numbers-they are. We should not even attempt to allow their incompetance to become our burden, let them stand on their own merits and force the stockholders to hold them accountable.

 

[WeAAsles]

True, but you left out the fact that the permanent concessions that AA won outside of BK were by far in excess of what had been temporarily imposed on those in BK. In fact other carriers had to return for more cuts in order to compete with AA. Even after several visits some of those who went BK retain things that AA workers lost. The only thing that AA workers kept (for now) was their defined benifit pension and the only reason they kept it was because it was cheaper than switching to the defined contribution plans the other carriers went to.



Thats right, and those who where at AA in the days of Crandall remembered how Crandall bragged about his $500million "War Chest" . So a few years later with more than double that AA is broke? BS.

The fact is that even back in 1997, when AA was making record profits they claimed that they were nearly bankrupt. They claimed that within weeks of a pilot strike the company would be liquidated.

Dont worry about AA's finances-you cant do anything about them anyway, thats what Arpey and his gang are paid for. Work harder for less? Or in the companys terms "pull together-win together"-its a fools folly.They can piss away money faster than can save or generate it. Just concern ourselves with getting what we need. When they cite fuel costs-cite your gas or electric bill. When they cite operating costs cite our living expensse. When they cite health care costs cite YOUR health care costs.

Give their numbers just as much consideration as they give ours-none.

We are not responsible for their numbers-they are. We should not even attempt to allow their incompetance to become our burden, let them stand on their own merits and force the stockholders to hold them accountable.

I like the way you think Bob. Pull Together Win together was a farce. Arpey is an old west tonic water salesman. Well I drank that water and I didn't get better so I don't think I'll buy that water again!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

The big wild card right now is fuel, eventually there will be ways to cope. However in the near term if gas goes to $4-$6 a gallon and in the long term to whatever, the days of cheap airfares are over- cutting demand and capacity. The contract provides the company the option to do whatever it has to do in event of a resource shortage. We may be heading back to the days when only businessmen and celebrities are flying, I don't see this industry staying in it's current form.

You worry too much.

Expensive fuel, how expensive is it really compared to the 70s when adjusted for inflation? Cheap fuel helped to lower our wages, cheap fuel allowed other costs to increase without having as much of an impact on us, if energy prices had remained constant there would have been more resistance to substandard raises over the last twenty years.

We got too used to cheap petroleum and as a result failed to develop other resources. We can thank Reagan for that , his legacy is a nation dependent on resources that come from hostile or unstable parts of the world. Carter had put a plan in place to make us "energy independant by the year 2000", Reagan scrapped it as soon as he took office.

Twenty years ago there was talk about hydrogen fueled aircraft. Maybe its time has come. It can be produced anywhere,(except for maybe the desert) no need for pipelines, supertankers or dealing with people who hate us. Its easy to produce-just run an electric current through water.
Salt water, polluted water, any water would do, and the waste product is pure water!

Bet the oil companies would love that!

If the airlines switched all their domestic airline flights to hydrogen fuel there would be a glut in oil. Instead of allowing the price of oil to come down tax the hell out of it to further develop more effecient engines, solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, nuclear power and hydrogen production.

The challenge lies in handling it and getting it past our oil industry controlled government.

 

[limit]

The need for alternate sources is real.

In the meantime here is an interesting graph.

 

[Raptor]

The company has a new Negotiations website that gives pay rates for the Airlines at present but
not benefits yet. http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsWagesACMech.asp

WN is Southwest
B6 is Jetblue
FL is Airtran

No one seems to know what the MRT of .50 is so I am not sure if anyone is really actually getting
that at AA ? :unsure: , this info is coming from the company of course so one could suspect accuracy but
it does look about right from what I remember when I made a similar chart 4 years ago.

AA did leave out Holidays, Vacation and sick days hopefully that will show up as I think we are
a little behind some of the big 5 on that.

In the past AA has never been #1 in Pay & Benefits compared to the big 5 Airlines at present we are #2 by about .50 cents

I am thinking we will probably get more news on the Negotiations from the company than we will from the Union. :angry:

It does appear we get better A&P license pay than any other Airline.

It does not look good for big Pay raises.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

No one seems to know what the MRT of .50 is so I am not sure if anyone is really actually getting
that at AA ? :unsure: , this info is coming from the company of course so one could suspect accuracy but
it does look about right from what I remember when I made a similar chart 4 years ago.

AA did leave out Holidays, Vacation and sick days hopefully that will show up as I think we are
a little behind some of the big 5 on that.

In the past AA has never been #1 in Pay & Benefits compared to the big 5 Airlines at present we are #2 by about .50 cents

I am thinking we will probably get more news on the Negotiations from the company than we will from the Union. :angry:

It does appear we get better A&P license pay than any other Airline.

It does not look good for big Pay raises.

MRT is midnight retention pay.

Nice chart showing how we are #5 in pay and 25% behind SWA, not to mention UPS. Now compare this to the rest of the work groups who are either #1 or a close second. If we were #2 in pay like other workgroups, we would be making over $2.50 more an hour going into these talks.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

Continued...

 

[Raptor]

I meant #2 compared to the big 5 which are AA, Continental, Delta, Northwest, United,
In my opinion these are the Airlines that we actually compare too, you know Apples to Apples
Oranges to Oranges the other Airlines are smaller and do not do their own Overhaul work,
that does make a difference.

Personally I think AA will look at the big 5 I just mentioned when deciding on what we
should be paid, watch and see if that does not happen, and of course UPS does
not even come in to play with us or the Pilots as we are not a cargo company we are an Airline.
Nice try though

Thanks for posting the other charts I did notice that other work groups are at the top of the scale.
AA Pilots are also at the top of the scale. <_<

Good to know what MRT means.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

I meant #2 compared to the big 5 which are AA, Continental, Delta, Northwest, United,
In my opinion these are the Airlines that we actually compare too, you know Apples to Apples
Oranges to Oranges the other Airlines are smaller and do not do their own Overhaul work,
that does make a difference.

Personally I think AA will look at the big 5 I just mentioned when deciding on what we
should be paid, watch and see if that does not happen, and of course UPS does
not even come in to play with us or the Pilots as we are not a cargo company we are an Airline.
Nice try though

So what your saying is that line guys are subsidizing your overhaul salary by not including all airlines. Besides according to the company chart, NW outsources much more than SWA.

 

[Raptor]

So what your saying is that line guys are subsidizing your overhaul salary by not including all airlines. Besides according to the company chart, NW outsources much more than SWA.

No actually what I am saying is what I said and that is AA compares as an overall company much
more closely to the top big 5 Airlines United, Continental, Delta, and Northwest.

Our cost's, size and expenses are closer to matching those Airlines, that is all I am saying
and those are the 4 companies that AA will be comparing us to in Negotiations.

Sometimes you just have to take a post for what it says and not read into any further.

really all my post's are what I expect will most likely happen based on what has happened in the
past, they are not necessarily what I would like to happen.

I like money as much as anyone else, money and retirement are my main reasons for working for
AA, I just think that when you look at all the data it is not likely we will be getting a big raise, so
it would be wise to not go out and start spending money expecting a big raise.

 

[Bob Owens]

Of course there arn't and you guys want me to believe that you would potentially give up
your jobs in a strike or possibly miss a house payment
There is not a snow balls chance in hell I am going to believe that, if you are afraid the
company is reading this board ( they very well could be ) so you are scared to give your
real names that you would be brave enough to put your Job at risk.

I would probably be the last guy on this board to cross the line
and if I did cross I would not be hiding behind a sheet or a ficticious name like LIMIT.

I take back my offer to go drinking with you LIMIT you are not
BRAVE enough to drink with me.

My hat is off to guys like Ken and Bob and Chuck and I will even give some
credit to Dave because we all know he is Informer he does not deny it.
The rest of you guys are all talk and NO action scared the company will read your post and
take your worthless low paying crummy benefit job away from you.

And you want to trust these guys with your Future Ken :unsure: that is just plain
Stupid in my opinion no slam intended just trying to give you a little guidance.

shouldn't you be calling these guys cowards about now Ken. :unsure:

Ah ha! Fooled you, my real name is Jim Little.

The fact is people are social creatures and like most social creatures there are leaders and followers. There's nothing wrong with following good leadership, but good leadership is a rarity, pretty much non-existant within the structure of the TWU. People have to have faith in their leaders before they will follow, leaders have to inspire such faith, that is impossible with the TWU because TWU members can not pick their leaders.

 

[Bob Owens]

The company has a new Negotiations website that gives pay rates for the Airlines at present but
not benefits yet. http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsWagesACMech.asp

WN is Southwest
B6 is Jetblue
FL is Airtran

No one seems to know what the MRT of .50 is so I am not sure if anyone is really actually getting
that at AA ? :unsure: , this info is coming from the company of course so one could suspect accuracy but
it does look about right from what I remember when I made a similar chart 4 years ago.

AA did leave out Holidays, Vacation and sick days hopefully that will show up as I think we are
a little behind some of the big 5 on that.

In the past AA has never been #1 in Pay & Benefits compared to the big 5 Airlines at present we are #2 by about .50 cents

I am thinking we will probably get more news on the Negotiations from the company than we will from the Union. :angry:

It does appear we get better A&P license pay than any other Airline.

It does not look good for big Pay raises.

When you factor in that we have the lowest vacation accumulation rates in the industry you can chop off 60 cents an hour, our lowest holiday pay and recognized number of holidays is the equivelent of another 100 less hours pay per year so take another $1.55 off. So when you figure in lost vacation and holiday pay we make about $2.15 less.

(10 holidays x 2.5 x 8hrs =200hrs for 80 hrs of holidays worked)
(5holidays x 1.5=7.5 +5=12.5 x 8=100hrs for 80 hrs of holidays worked)
200-100=100hours pay lost with the loss of 5 holidays and the reduction to 1.5x from 2.5x

Also not figured in is the loss of OT for training, the loss of doubletime, the paid lunch, meal allowance etc.


That puts us below UAL and Delta, two airlines that went BK. So how did saving AA from BK help us? We are worse off than any carrier that did not go BK and two carriers that did!


The loss of Holiday pay alone comes out to a loss of over $3200/year or $1.55 an hour. We used to see $3800 a year for working 10 extra days a year that most people got off and were paid for, now we only see $600 more for working those 10 extra days, it breaks down to $7.50/hr to work 10 holidays.

Holiday Pay is one of the most obvious examples of the spitefullness of the scumbags who came up with these concessions. If only we had the labor laws that people in free countries have we could have a wildcat strike on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years Day, this way Little, Arpey and all their underlings would have to work and be reminded what its like.

 

[UAL_TECH]

The company has a new Negotiations website that gives pay rates for the Airlines at present but
not benefits yet. http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsWagesACMech.asp

WN is Southwest
B6 is Jetblue
FL is Airtran

No one seems to know what the MRT of .50 is so I am not sure if anyone is really actually getting
that at AA ? :unsure: , this info is coming from the company of course so one could suspect accuracy but
it does look about right from what I remember when I made a similar chart 4 years ago.

AA did leave out Holidays, Vacation and sick days hopefully that will show up as I think we are
a little behind some of the big 5 on that.

In the past AA has never been #1 in Pay & Benefits compared to the big 5 Airlines at present we are #2 by about .50 cents

I am thinking we will probably get more news on the Negotiations from the company than we will from the Union. :angry:

It does appear we get better A&P license pay than any other Airline.

It does not look good for big Pay raises.

Raptor,
You forgot 'skill pay' for UA:
Article XXII, Section O.5 -- Revise to read as follows:
Employees who work in the Mechanic or related premium classifications, the
Computer Technician or Lead Computer Technician or in the Metrologist
classification will receive a high skill premium of $1.33 per hour effective May 1,
2004 adjusted as follows:
Effective
6/1/05 1/1/06 1/1/07 1/1/08 1/1/09
$1.28 $1.30 $1.32 $1.34 $1.36

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

Raptor,
You forgot 'skill pay' for UA:
Article XXII, Section O.5 -- Revise to read as follows:
Employees who work in the Mechanic or related premium classifications, the
Computer Technician or Lead Computer Technician or in the Metrologist
classification will receive a high skill premium of $1.33 per hour effective May 1,
2004 adjusted as follows:
Effective
6/1/05 1/1/06 1/1/07 1/1/08 1/1/09
$1.28 $1.30 $1.32 $1.34 $1.36

Take Care,
B) UT

Now you didn't expect accurate statements from the twu/aa. <_<