TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

there is obviosly widespread dissatisfaction with Little.but Little is not the TWU.why throw the baby out with the bathwater.bring your issues to the floor of the next convention.there is a massive opposition to Little developing at local 100.nyc transit workers are fed up with the Toussaint /Little collaboration style engagement with these bosses.local 100 constitutes about 1/3 of the TWU,and the vast majority of convention delegates will not support Little ,especially if he keeps up his political support of the sell out Toussaint.i know it will not solve any ATD problems in the short term,but we can restore the TWU back to its members.we need to start now.we need to get out info on the issues each industry is facing,and how Little is handling or mishandling each situation.we need to join forces.

Read up on the history of the TWU. The paralells between the NYC transit industry and the air transit industry are mind boggling. Prior to the formation of the TWU NYC Transit workers were in the same position as Airline workers. Some were unionized, some werent. many different unions existed within the industry and they all were inefficeint and ineffective because they didnt want the company where they had members shrink.

Just as reforms within the many unions that preceeded the TWU would not have improved conditions for workers in the highly competitive NYC transit system, improving the TWU would not repair the damage that having the workers in our industry divided into many unions has done. Basically airline workers need to follow the example of what the TWU did for Transit Workers. We need to unify into one union.

That said, I still believe that, although the TWU will never be what we need, I certainly cant see it within the business union climate of the AFL-CIO, we should try to make it as good as we can, who knows, maybe the TWU could be the union that sets out to unify the industry, but they will have to resort to raiding like they did back in the early days of Santo and Quill. Todays leaders would never go for that, its a lot easier to sit back and collect the spoils of selling out the membesr while blaming the members for the decline of unionism.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

GO to this link and watch video. Key in on what Jim Little says than who is booing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9haL5R8gu18


Jim Little was the same guy who told us in 2003 negotiations "that we are in no position to ask for anything" all i was asking for "was to remove the part time language that was in our contract since the company had no plans to use part time Mechanics."

here he is now in 2007 claiming to be upset about we gave up. The TWU was the driving force in accepting the contract. The proposals for the concessions of 2003 did not come from the Negotiating Committee. The TWU handed out different proposals as an exercise and then made one of the proposals (#2) the main focus to work off of. A majority of the concessions came from Proposal #2. I repeat, We did not come up with the concessions. We were presented a list of options and told to choose our poison!

 

[TWU informer]

GO to this link and watch video. Key in on what Jim Little says than who is booing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9haL5R8gu18
Jim Little was the same guy who told us in 2003 negotiations "that we are in no position to ask for anything" all i was asking for "was to remove the part time language that was in our contract since the company had no plans to use part time Mechanics."

here he is now in 2007 claiming to be upset about we gave up. The TWU was the driving force in accepting the contract. The proposals for the concessions of 2003 did not come from the Negotiating Committee. The TWU handed out different proposals as an exercise and then made one of the proposals (#2) the main focus to work off of. A majority of the concessions came from Proposal #2. I repeat, We did not come up with the concessions. We were presented a list of options and told to choose our poison!

Amazing how the ELECTED leaders (APA/APFA) seem to have members willing to listen and follow and the APPOINTED leaders of the TWU get booed.

The TWU is not supported by the very folks that pay dues to the organization.

The TWU would have been replaced had AA not protected the TWU from an NMB Ballot.

The TWU can not properly represent or negotiate a labor agreement because the membership has complete contempt for the leaders and the constitution.

The Pilots and F/A's would be far better off to NEVER disclose information to Jim Little or any other APPOINTED leader of the TWU as this information will be directly submitted to AA Management.

 

[AMFAMAN]

The Pilots and F/A's would be far better off to NEVER disclose information to Jim Little or any other APPOINTED leader of the TWU as this information will be directly submitted to AA Management.

I do wonder if they are aware that they are dealing with a former member of AA management in Jim Little.

 

[TWU-NYC]

Have you ever been to the TWU convention? It is far from democratic and very political in nature. Unless you have a unified group and solidarity on your voting prior to the convention. The elections are conducted by calling out yea or nay and the man at the podium decides on who yells the loudest. The alternates are commonly yelling out their vote even though they are suppose to be observing only. The need for electronic voting has not and probably will not be addressed because it hold everyone accountable for their vote.

I have been to three conventions as a Local 100 delegate.I was among the sizeable Local 100 contingent opposed to Sonny Hall in both 1997 and 2001.We formed an alliance with some of the AA delegates from NYC.We never stood a chance because Sonny had a lock on everything outside of New York. Additionally,Sonny had a chunk of Local 100,from the bus side of our Local.In 2009,Jim Little is looking at scant support out of Local 100,and he seems to have his detractors in the airlines.Local 100 represents about 1/3 of the total delagate count.If Littles opposition in Local 100 can unite with his opposition in the airlines ,we will constitute a legitimate threat to his re-election.Yes,we will need to force a roll call vote.We will need a lawyer down there with us.We already have that covered.It is obviously a very difficult fight,but it will never happen if nobody begins to organize for its success.Local 100 will deliver a substantial number of delegates prepared to take out Little and his friend toussaint.That is a very good start.Instead of saying it can never happen,we need to work to make it happen.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -------- Well AA! The man is saying "Put up! Or shut up!" Whatya guna do?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

<_< ----Bear it's real easy to call people "Cowards" when your retired, sitting back in your easy chair,with your computor, and looking at it in hindsight! I can't speak for those in TUL, but maybe I can give you a little insight on what went on here at MCI.---- If you remember at that time the "Overhaul Base" was on AA's hit list, and everyone know it! I have no doubt in my mind that, at that time, AA had every intention of shutting us down. Now remember, under Kasher's ruling, if that happened, most would have nowhere to go but the street. Remeber,these are people in their fifties, and early sixties! And jobs ,that paid enough to support ones family, were, and still are, almost nonexistent! So under those circumstances, maybe voting "yes' took more courage than you realize!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, ..MCI,

I'll accept your criticism leveled at me, due to your INITIAL extenuating circumstance !!

But I'm SURE you know that HDQ will use MCI as a Giant PAWN, as they play their evil game of "divide and conquor"

Ps,
How's the KC Chiefs doing ?(the NE Pats are "7-0")

 

[Chuck Schalk]

The TWU has announced they are opening negotiations. What have they been doing for last 8 months or so when the tWU said they were in pre-negotiations! Nothing!
And that is exactly what will happen now.....Nothing but smoke and senseless dialoge. nothing will happen with the holidays coming. The TWU would not want their work group upset around the holidays. They will await till february or march as they always do and then lay down what the company wants and vote on it. Is it just me who sees this?

 

[Raptor]

<_< ----Bear it's real easy to call people "Cowards" when your retired, sitting back in your easy chair,with your computor, and looking at it in hindsight! I can't speak for those in TUL, but maybe I can give you a little insight on what went on here at MCI.---- If you remember at that time the "Overhaul Base" was on AA's hit list, and everyone know it! I have no doubt in my mind that, at that time, AA had every intention of shutting us down. Now remember, under Kasher's ruling, if that happened, most would have nowhere to go but the street. Remeber,these are people in their fifties, and early sixties! And jobs ,that paid enough to support ones family, were, and still are, almost nonexistent! So under those circumstances, maybe voting "yes' took more courage than you realize!

Thats what I have been saying all along MCI Transplant, we are all in different situations, so whereas it might be easy and a whole lot less risky for one person to strike or vote no it could be a whole lot harder for someone else in a different situation.

We all must do what is right for ourselves, because in the end the only one who will be there for you and your family is you.

It is very easy to call someone names from the other end of a keyboard, but much harder up close and personal.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Raptor,

"We all must do what is right for ourselves, because in the end the only one who will be there for you and your family is you."



BULLSHIT!

Your statement just shoots down exactly what unionism is all about. So in your opinion if a company wants to take pay & benefits away from a work group if it is okay with one person, ie. you, then these cuts should be accepted?

Look, we all have families to provide for. THAT is why unions were created in the first place. But standing together to BETTER our craft for EVERYONE is what we are in a union for. If you feel that YOU are happy and will come to work regardless of what the company does to you, like lie to your face, and not fight, well, that is pathetic.

You sound exactly like the story about pre-WWII. They came for the Catholics but I was okay with that. Then they came for the Jews, Russians, Poles. But I was okay with that too. Then they came for me and that made me upset but no one was around to help me when I needed it.

Perhaps instead of a Raptor your avatar could be a white flag.

There is no anger or malice in this post directed at you. Just guidance.

 

[Bagbelt]

The big wild card right now is fuel, eventually there will be ways to cope. However in the near term if gas goes to $4-$6 a gallon and in the long term to whatever, the days of cheap airfares are over- cutting demand and capacity. The contract provides the company the option to do whatever it has to do in event of a resource shortage. We may be heading back to the days when only businessmen and celebrities are flying, I don't see this industry staying in it's current form.

 

[Raptor]

Raptor,

"We all must do what is right for ourselves, because in the end the only one who will be there for you and your family is you."

BULLSHIT!

Your statement just shoots down exactly what unionism is all about. So in your opinion if a company wants to take pay & benefits away from a work group if it is okay with one person, ie. you, then these cuts should be accepted?

Look, we all have families to provide for. THAT is why unions were created in the first place. But standing together to BETTER our craft for EVERYONE is what we are in a union for. If you feel that YOU are happy and will come to work regardless of what the company does to you, like lie to your face, and not fight, well, that is pathetic.

You sound exactly like the story about pre-WWII. They came for the Catholics but I was okay with that. Then they came for the Jews, Russians, Poles. But I was okay with that too. Then they came for me and that made me upset but no one was around to help me when I needed it.

Perhaps instead of a Raptor your avatar could be a white flag.

There is no anger or malice in this post directed at you. Just guidance.

Ken my statement is a true one, find yourself in a jam sometime and see how many Union brothers
come to your aid. :unsure: They may talk a good talk but actions speak louder
than words, as for courage and bravery look at this forum how many people here have the guts
to do something as small as give their real names you do, I do ( Dan McCoy ) and there are a few others but most people don't even have the courage to do something that small, they talk a good talk from a keyboard but when it comes to real action most of them would be nothing more than talk.
I learned alot about people during the AMFA drive, there were maybe 150 hard working AMFA organizers
fighting to make a change and maybe 100 TWU guys fighting back for a grand total of 250 people out of
7,000, everyone one else did nothing but maybe sign a card after you begged and or bugged them enough too, do you really think you can count of these people to protect your Future of course you can't
they will let you down just as they have in the past, and they will not be there for you when you need them that much you can count on.

Remember all the different wage scales we use to have and now the SRP/OSM Mechanic program these are just a few examples of Union guys screwing each other, I could type all day listing them, we are not united and we never will be, because we are all to different with different needs and situations.

If you are not happy with your current situation then you should withold your labor not for me or someone else but for you, because you are unhappy, you do not have to accept the pay and benefits if you don't like them, you have a choice as do everyone else, should AA ever choose to take the pension away or pay me less than I can be happy with, then I will simply leave but I will not ask you to join me, because I can leave without you, that has really been my point all along.

Trust me Ken do not count on other people to get you what you need they WILL let you down, the past 20 years is clear proof of that. :angry:

I have never said if the company wants to take pay and benefits away and one person is happy then it is ok, it is up to each individual is what I am saying, we all have a choice as to what we will work for.

Unions are about Majority rule, I am not for Majority rule myself because I don't trust the Majority, but you being a hard core Union Man HAVE to be for Majority rule, the reason you have been screwed for the last 20 years is because that is what the Majority wanted, not what I wanted or you wanted, they voted for the contracts including the concession that you hate so much.
The fact is I have only voted for 2 contracts in the last 20 years.

Your Union brothers that you think care so much about you and your family will more than likely screw you again, because they are looking out for themselves regardless of wether they have the guts to say it out loud like myself.

After 20 years of being pissed off, I am finally content and even happy, I do not want to fight the company or the TWU anymore, that does not mean I will never take anymore risks, I certainly will but I pick my battles a little more carefully these days, there was a time I would fight at the drop of a hat but now I sit back and think about it first and I decide if the benefit is worth the risk.
Being as I am happy now and close to retirement the benefit I could get from fighting the company are not worth the risk of having to start over, the time for me to fight was years ago but my fellow Union brothers were not with me then and they won't be with you now, I am 100% sure there will not be a strike over this next contract and at this point in my life I am glad.
I do think the company will give us something back but not everything and I think the Overhauls not just Tulsa but all three of them will buy the contract, they will be the Majority and in a Union it is all about Majority, so you should be happy that the Union way worked the way it is suppose to regardless of how it personally effects you. That is how a hard core Union man should feel after an election.

As far as what my Avatar should be, a Raptor is still good for me when I find a fight that I want to fight.
I am not giving up fighting altogether I am simply choosing my fights more carefully, I do tend to choose fights these days that I do not have to rely on others to help me, I already gave one example of where I am going after a woman that stole 12,000 dollars from our Neighborhood Pool, there are 300 Members at our Pool and 7 Board Members but only one is pushing prosecution of this woman and that one person is ME, all by myself, all the other Pool Members much like our Union Members are to Apathic to bother with it. This woman will soon find out just how much of a Raptor Dan McCoy can be.
The company however is safe from me for the time being unless they come for my Pension in which case the war is on. :angry:

Anyone else care to give your real name to PROOVE to me and Ken that you are really as brave and or courages as you say you are. :unsure: A location as to where you work would be nice as well.

Have a good day Ken and keep on kicking A##.
and thanks for the guidance.

 

[Raptor]

I guess their are NO brave men willing to take my challenge and give their real names?

How about you Limit, or Goose or MCI Transplant or AMFAMAN, are there NO brave soles among you

Of course there arn't and you guys want me to believe that you would potentially give up
your jobs in a strike or possibly miss a house payment
There is not a snow balls chance in hell I am going to believe that, if you are afraid the
company is reading this board ( they very well could be ) so you are scared to give your
real names that you would be brave enough to put your Job at risk.

I would probably be the last guy on this board to cross the line
and if I did cross I would not be hiding behind a sheet or a ficticious name like LIMIT.

I take back my offer to go drinking with you LIMIT you are not
BRAVE enough to drink with me.

My hat is off to guys like Ken and Bob and Chuck and I will even give some
credit to Dave because we all know he is Informer he does not deny it.
The rest of you guys are all talk and NO action scared the company will read your post and
take your worthless low paying crummy benefit job away from you.

And you want to trust these guys with your Future Ken :unsure: that is just plain
Stupid in my opinion no slam intended just trying to give you a little guidance.

shouldn't you be calling these guys cowards about now Ken. :unsure:

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Raptor,

"shouldn't you be calling these guys cowards about now Ken."

I have stated many times regarding the use of an alias Raptor. Using an alias does not make an individual a coward. It merely gives the reader a reason to pause and think about the poster. It is easy to use an alias and post lies because not knowing a poster doesn't allow people to know who the liar is.

Using an alias while personally attacking another poster is where I have an issue. But we digress here.

"Your Union brothers that you think care so much about you and your family will more than likely screw you again, because they are looking out for themselves regardless of wether they have the guts to say it out loud like myself."

I disagree. I believe that if the membership speaks loudly enough mountains can be moved. The membership spoke loudly during the previous AMFA drive and that mountain would have moved if we were able to get the dead to sing. Nothing is impossible. Difficult? Hard? Trying? Yes, but if things were easy we would not be on these BBs communicating.

 

[Raptor]

Raptor,

"shouldn't you be calling these guys cowards about now Ken."

I have stated many times regarding the use of an alias Raptor. Using an alias does not make an individual a coward. It merely gives the reader a reason to pause and think about the poster. It is easy to use an alias and post lies because not knowing a poster doesn't allow people to know who the liar is.

Using an alias while personally attacking another poster is where I have an issue. But we digress here.

"Your Union brothers that you think care so much about you and your family will more than likely screw you again, because they are looking out for themselves regardless of wether they have the guts to say it out loud like myself."

I disagree. I believe that if the membership speaks loudly enough mountains can be moved. The membership spoke loudly during the previous AMFA drive and that mountain would have moved if we were able to get the dead to sing. Nothing is impossible. Difficult? Hard? Trying? Yes, but if things were easy we would not be on these BBs communicating.

I disagree with your assertion that the Membership spoke loudly during the last AMFA drive, the fact is 150 people did all the work while
the vast Majority did nothing more than sign a card after an Organizer bugged them for months to do it, it takes little to
No effort to sign a card but it takes a great deal of effort to go on strike and fight a multibillion dollar company.
If the Members are not willing to get involved in the little fights they most certainly will not get involved in the big fights
here in Tulsa less than half of the Membership even vote on the contracts
How much effort does it take to fill out a ballot that will have a huge impact on your life :unsure:

Our Members won't be moving any Mountains not even a small ant hill in my opinion.
I do agree that you cannot trust anyone who is afraid to give their real name, as there really is No incentative for them to
tell the truth, they just tell you what you want to hear because they do not want to go against the group even when they are
anonomous

Don't put your faith in these people Ken you will only get burned .AGAIN
Do yourself a favor and watch your own back.