Question, Foreign Maintenance

[Hopeful]

There'a real Catch-22 here!
Japan and even China starting some years ago have demanded that they get some of the work for building Boeing aircraft or they would stop buying Boeing products.

PORTION DELETED OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION

 

[j7915]

A couple of Russian planes recently went down from suicide bombers. A few years ago the World Trade Centers collapsed due to al-queda operatives. Do you not see the need for concern?

[post="173506"][/post]​

Mechanics from an MRO in China or Singapore were responsible for those incidents?

I see a need for concern, but the change has to come thru the FAA regs and that requires congressional action, which requires a Congress and an adminstration that cares about American A&Ps. You know,us, the ones who vote them into office? Do you see AMFA co-ordinating a serious program of political activism that will actually make Senators and Congressmen look up and pay attention?

Why should they pay attention to a handful of mechs, uncoordinated from any other group. All the A&Ps together don't have the funds nor the manpower to help turn elections.

 

[Buck]

Mechanics from an MRO in China or Singapore were responsible for those incidents?

I see a need for concern, but the change has to come thru the FAA regs and that requires congressional action, which requires a Congress and an adminstration that cares about American A&Ps. You know,us, the ones who vote them into office? Do you see AMFA co-ordinating a serious program of political activism that will actually make Senators and Congressmen look up and pay attention?

Why should they pay attention to a handful of mechs, uncoordinated from any other group. All the A&Ps together don't have the funds nor the manpower to help turn elections.

[post="173744"][/post]​

It will take the actions of a "handful of mechanics". Any political activism would be effective if the mechanics would unite under one union across the country. The continuing association with the other work groups under the current socialistic industrialized system of unionism know as the AFL-CIO has achieved nothing for these handful of mechanics. But of course you do not believe in the mechanic profession and have stated so, many times in these forums. Your belief in the power of strength in numbers of the AFL-CIO has achieved only concessionary contracts since deregulation became effect in this industry.

 

[Rusty]

Mechanics from an MRO in China or Singapore were responsible for those incidents?

I see a need for concern, but the change has to come thru the FAA regs and that requires congressional action, which requires a Congress and an adminstration that cares about American A&Ps. You know,us, the ones who vote them into office? Do you see AMFA co-ordinating a serious program of political activism that will actually make Senators and Congressmen look up and pay attention?

Why should they pay attention to a handful of mechs, uncoordinated from any other group. All the A&Ps together don't have the funds nor the manpower to help turn elections.

[post="173744"][/post]​

I would agree that it will take congressional action but I disagree that the administration has to care about A&P's. We need to push for a congressional hearing based on the flying publics safety and we need to tighten the safety belt from all countries. The flying public can make or beak our industry and if they are afraid to fly, who are we going to blame, the administration , A&Ps, or the laws that govern safety? Al-Queda is not based in Afghanistan alone and there are many other hate groups around the world. There has already been an arrest in Singapore for a known Al-Queda operative associated with maintenance. How many are unknown? Point being if we lobby congress (which we [AMFA] are already doing) for the right reasons we will eventually get some action or at least help plant the seeds for change, as it pertains to these concerns.

 

[j7915]

It will take the actions of a "handful of mechanics". Any political activism would be effective if the mechanics would unite under one union across the country. The continuing association with the other work groups under the current socialistic industrialized system of unionism know as the AFL-CIO has achieved nothing for these handful of mechanics. But of course you do not believe in the mechanic profession and have stated so, many times in these forums. Your belief in the power of strength in numbers of the AFL-CIO has achieved only concessionary contracts since deregulation became effect in this industry.

[post="173788"][/post]​

A handful of mechanics will be ignored. What part of "what can your group do for me"... fill in the name of any senator or congressmen don't you understand?

The public may shy away from flying, either permanently or more likely until they hear the usual soothing BS from the usual suspects about how security has been tightened; and then they'll fly for the lowest fare.

Buck, you are getting tiresome, I don't have anything against mechanics, as the saying goes: I is one, I am working it from the QA side now.

As to your fear of socialism, it was the socialists who founded the unions, not the capitalists. It is the socialist ideals that either make a break a union, and yes strength in numbers is important.

Start explaining how the political climate would be different without the AFL-CIO?

Craft unionism really worked for the brakemen on the railroad, the fireman, the radio operators and the navigators, didn't it? Economics and technology and regulations are now overtaking the mechs , unless you keep the the work under one umbrella organization you will be marginalized.

 

[Rusty]

A handful of mechanics will be ignored. What part of "what can your group do for me"... fill in the name of any senator or congressmen don't you understand?

[post="173802"][/post]​

How many will it take? Is it worth trying?

The public may shy away from flying, either permanently or more likely until they hear the usual soothing BS from the usual suspects about how security has been tightened; and then they'll fly for the lowest fare.

I would agree with your assessment to an extent. Are we not relying on an excellent management team for competition in the market? Is it the low wages paid at SWA that we are competing with, or is it a top heavy bureaucratic system? By all means please expand on your statement.

As to your fear of socialism, it was the socialists who founded the unions, not the capitalists. It is the socialist ideals that either make a break a union, and yes strength in numbers is important.

Again I would agree with you to an extent. I believe the numbers are only part of the equation as you seem to have left other parts out. To have the numbers in a complete sector is equally important as is Democracy in order to allow that voice to be heard and reconed with.

Start explaining how the political climate would be different without the AFL-CIO?

The afl-cio has taken on other issues such as gay rights, same sex marriage, gays in the Boy Scouts, girls in the boy Scouts and other issues not related to labor in order to gain numbers. Although they may be important issues, in my opinion they weaken labors position by compromising the values of the majority. Just like some politicians take on these groups for the numbers but are weakened by the same. Do we need this to strengthen labors position??? The afl-cio is shrinking and weakening due in part to these problems, are we to follow???

Possibly creating another or joining another encompassing labor only focused organization is an answer. Changing the afl-cio would be like changing the twu, impossible!!!

Craft unionism really worked for the brakemen on the railroad, the fireman, the radio operators and the navigators, didn't it? Economics and technology and regulations are now overtaking the mechs , unless you keep the the work under one umbrella organization you will be marginalized.

"unless you keep the the work under one umbrella organization you will be marginalized." I would take it that you mean the afl-cio. Is that working, is that the total answer???? Wanna bet the pilots chart doesn't look like this.

 

[Buck]

A handful of mechanics will be ignored. What part of "what can your group do for me"... fill in the name of any senator or congressmen don't you understand?

With all of the mechanics in the industry under one group looking out for ourselves, the mechanics, we can become strong.

The public may shy away from flying, either permanently or more likely until they hear the usual soothing BS from the usual suspects about how security has been tightened; and then they'll fly for the lowest fare.

Buck, you are getting tiresome, I don't have anything against mechanics, as the saying goes: I is one, I am working it from the QA side now.

I am only beginning to become tiresome! Why do you lie about your feelings for the mechanics? You do condone the SRP/OSM classification. Therefore you condone division within the ranks to satisfy your socialistic based industrial unionism doctrines.

As to your fear of socialism, it was the socialists who founded the unions, not the capitalists. It is the socialist ideals that either make a break a union, and yes strength in numbers is important.

And it is the socialists who have failed the membership and have turned into dues collecting business machines. And strength in numbers is only important if you use it. The TWU and the AFL-CIO have failed to do so for a long time.

Start explaining how the political climate would be different without the AFL-CIO?

Again what has the AFL-CIO done recently for the mechanic craft and class?
If the membership felt as strongly as you do about voting Yellow Dog Democrat then not one member would vote for the opposition. Have you ever voted for a Conservative issue? Are you a gun owner?

Craft unionism really worked for the brakemen on the railroad, the fireman, the radio operators and the navigators, didn't it? Economics and technology and regulations are now overtaking the mechs , unless you keep the the work under one umbrella organization you will be marginalized.

I guess the crafts you listed are under the AFL-CIO right?

[post="173802"][/post]​

 

[777GUY]

The information about the Interior workers with no Aviation background was given to me by the Instructor who was sent over there to train them. He came to me because I was a union official. As he was teaching the class he either got blank stares or unusual questions. After one student asked "Whats an empanage?" he finally asked "Dont you guys work on airplanes?" To which they replied "Not yet, you are training us to". He then found out they had no prior training. Putting someone with no prior aviation background through a 40 Gen-Fam course which is designed for an A&P mechanic is a waste of time.

Also we had AA mechanics at JFK getting training, although over there they are classified as Engineers. He didnt say that he had an FAA liscence and I doubt that he would have recieved it over there. I think that you are wrong about what is the governing body which certifies them if you are implying that they are FAA certified.

As far as not losing the work, well we dont have it anymore.

[post="173462"][/post]​

Well I think that the instructor must have been getting his wires crossed. I state once again that all AA employed AMT's in Europe are FAA A+P certified. No unlicenced mechanics are employed and never will be, simply because you are not allowed to go anywhere near an ETOPS aircraft (which is all that flies into Europe) without a valid A+P licence and a 40 hr Gen fam course. How do I know all this? I work there.

 

[Buck]

Well I think that the instructor must have been getting his wires crossed. I state once again that all AA employed AMT's in Europe are FAA A+P certified. No unlicenced mechanics are employed and never will be, simply because you are not allowed to go anywhere near an ETOPS aircraft (which is all that flies into Europe) without a valid A+P licence and a 40 hr Gen fam course. How do I know all this? I work there.

[post="173842"][/post]​

Are you stating that there are not any Overhaul Shop Mechanics that accomplish TWU work in the European system? Nothing is farmed out to any unlicensed MRO technicians?

What if a part is required to make the aircraft airworthy? Are all of these parts repaired in Europe by FAA A&P certified employees?

 

[Rusty]

Well I think that the instructor must have been getting his wires crossed. I state once again that all AA employed AMT's in Europe are FAA A+P certified. No unlicenced mechanics are employed and never will be, simply because you are not allowed to go anywhere near an ETOPS aircraft (which is all that flies into Europe) without a valid A+P licence and a 40 hr Gen fam course. How do I know all this? I work there.

[post="173842"][/post]​

Why are you not in Europe and what brings you to visit this board while you are away? Are you a full time A&P? Just curious!

 

[j7915]

[post="173833"][/post]​

Buck what is it with you that you really think that a guy breaking down tires or stripping foam off a seat, or any number of semi-skilled jobs, that need to be done need should be paid at the scale that you are making? Are you that underpaid that every job is only worth your scale?

All these jobs have to be done, but if you price them out of the economic scale, they will be contracted, and your skilled job will not be far behind. SWA has set the example, right or wrong it works well for them. Will it work for everyone? Is there a threshhold of aircraft numbers where AA's in-house maint is just as cheap and more flexible, you tell me.

 

[Buck]

Buck what is it with you that you really think that a guy breaking down tires or stripping foam off a seat, or any number of semi-skilled jobs, that need to be done need should be paid at the scale that you are making? Are you that underpaid that every job is only worth your scale?

So prior to the devastation created by the TWU when they created the B-Scale and its successors, all mechanics who were receiving compensation equally were overpaid in those classifications?

And yes we are all underpaid. Are you really a union man or management QA?

Why do you insist that fellow union members be compensated on different pay scale for the same work? Remember if you have any time in aviation, you could have been overpaid if you performed any work the TWU has deemed to be unskilled, with the blessing of the company of course.

All these jobs have to be done, but if you price them out of the economic scale, they will be contracted, and your skilled job will not be far behind. SWA has set the example, right or wrong it works well for them. Will it work for everyone? Is there a threshhold of aircraft numbers where AA's in-house maint is just as cheap and more flexible, you tell me.

What do mean price them out on an economic scale? Is this an excuse for the TWU's poor attempt at collective bargaining? If the AFL-CIO and it's affiliates would remember what unionism is about and use their strength in numbers, there would be no reason to concede the jobs in this classification.

You tell me at what point you will consider stopping the concessionary contracts?

The low cost carriers wages are rising and the TWU represented wages wages are falling, at what point are you going to become a union man again? Those of you who have sold out the industry for the promise of a larger pension at the expense of those not yet hired are not union men and women. As the saying goes at AA, "I've Got Mine Brother" With your attitude we should all take lower wage and benefit packages to keep the legacy carriers afloat, no matter how bad they are managed. AA continues to increase its fleet size and our wages continue to fall. Let me see, more work lower wages different classifications. Kind of anti-union isn't it?

[post="173878"][/post]​

 

[777GUY]

Are you stating that there are not any Overhaul Shop Mechanics that accomplish TWU work in the European system? Nothing is farmed out to any unlicensed MRO technicians?

What if a part is required to make the aircraft airworthy? Are all of these parts repaired in Europe by FAA A&P certified employees?

[post="173857"][/post]​

Correct, any spares that are fitted to AA aircraft come from the US with an AA 8130 tag. All unserviceable parts are shipped back to Tulsa for repair.

 

[777GUY]

Why are you not in Europe and what brings you to visit this board while you are away? Are you a full time A&P? Just curious!

[post="173858"][/post]​

I am in Europe (its the world wide web, get it?!) and yes I am a full time A&P.

 

[Rusty]

I am in Europe (its the world wide web, get it?!) and yes I am a full time A&P.

[post="173899"][/post]​

Excuse me for the assumption 777GUY. The "I work there." threw me off!!! If I were talking to a person in Europe, I would have said "I work here" meaning the USA so again forgive me. I see no reason for the "get it?" summation. Why such a defensive answer?