Points to Ponder

[TWU informer]

dupe

 

[TWU informer]

Informer writes "Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed."

Overspeed writes: "US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005. "


What do we get from Informer?



Crickets.

US Airways merged with America West and the Pilots had a tansition agreement that was a consensual agreement between the Pilot Groups and Management. "CONSENSUAL AGREEMENT"!!!!!

Find a case that a POR was approved without a plan for Labor Peace and quit parsing semantics to sell the next round of TWU Industry Leading Concessions.

Even before the second bankruptcy filing of 2004, one of the alternatives US Airways Group explored was a possible merger with America West, as the two airlines had complementary networks and similar labor costs. The parties held preliminary discussions and conducted due diligence from February through July 2004. Ultimately, these talks ended due to issues related to labor, pension, and benefit costs.[citation needed]

By December 2004, US Airways had cut labor costs significantly. Its investment adviser, the Seabury Group, suggested putting the airline up for sale. The following month, US Airways Group and America West Holdings resumed their discussions. On May 19, 2005, both airlines officially announced the merger deal, structured as a reverse takeover. Financing for the deal was supplied by outside investors including Airbus, an aircraft manufacturing subsidiary of EADS, the European aerospace consortium. Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation, operator of numerous US Airways Express flights, and ACE Aviation Holdings, the parent company of Air Canada, also bought shares in the combined airline. The merged airline retained the US Airways name to emphasize its national scope, as well as to capitalize on US Airways' worldwide recognition, Dividend Miles frequent flyer program, and Star Alliance membership.[32] On September 13, 2005, America West shareholders voted to approve the merger agreement, and three days later the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Virginia approved US Airways' emergence from bankruptcy, allowing the merger to close on September 27.[citation needed]

Since the merger, US Airways has been headquartered at the former America West corporate offices in Tempe, Arizona, and America West executives and board members are largely in control of the merged company. The company's aircraft merged FAA operating certificate includes America West's airline call sign "CACTUS."

 

[Tex-Mech]

US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005.

Wrong
http://www.fltops.com/profile.asp?ID=14

In October 2004, pilots at US Airways ratified a concession package that included additional pay cuts of 18 percent, a decrease in company contributions to their retirement plan and increased productivity. The deal, which is in effect until December 31, 2009, includes a profit-sharing plan for pilots as well as equity in the airline. Pilots agreed to significant givebacks in the airline's first bankruptcy and had their pension plan terminated and replaced with a less expensive one.

 

[TWU informer]

US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005.

Bottom line?

An airline can emerge from BK without consensual agreements.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/06/04/20110604us-airways-pilot-negotiations.html

And then

Informer writes "Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed."

Overspeed writes: "US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005. "
What do we get from Informer?
Crickets.

http://www.fltops.com/profile.asp?ID=14


In October 2004, pilots at US Airways ratified a concession package that included additional pay cuts of 18 percent, a decrease in company contributions to their retirement plan and increased productivity. The deal, which is in effect until December 31, 2009, includes a profit-sharing plan for pilots as well as equity in the airline. Pilots agreed to significant givebacks in the airline's first bankruptcy and had their pension plan terminated and replaced with a less expensive one.


Cricket....Cricket....Cricket......Cricket


Bottom Line

Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed.



Thank you Tex-Mech

 

[Mr Red]

And voting no means what? That we will get huge raises? Really? Time to wake up. Judge Lane is going to say that AMR should as a consequence of huge layoffs give everyone a big raise? Really? Has that happened? Uh, no.

The past is that in court CBAs get abrogated and jobs, benefits, and wages get hammered. That's the truth. No one has gotten a raise in BK court, no one. The thing you hang your hat on is that somehow in a matter of months or years of continued negotiations after BK we will get a raise to at best what? $38? $40?

Not likely but what is likely is that 4,300 will be out of a job and you will still blame the TWU and ask for another union to be our savior. Again, those that forget the past our condemned to repeat it.

This thing was dead on arrival,the usual TWU fear tactics and false statements just don't work anymore.We can make the TWU work,but we would have to clean house at the ATD,they do not speak for the membership at all!!!
VOTE NO !!!!

 

[Overspeed]

US Airways merged with America West and the Pilots had a tansition agreement that was a consensual agreement between the Pilot Groups and Management. "CONSENSUAL AGREEMENT"!!!!!

Find a case that a POR was approved without a plan for Labor Peace and quit parsing semantics to sell the next round of TWU Industry Leading Concessions.

Is NWA's agreement with AMFA during the BK "labor peace"? Was UAL's agreement and closing of IND and OAK labor peace? Was DL's outsourcing of all airframe overhaul labor peace?

And the transitional agreements were in place for the merger. Had very little to do with BK. AMR does not need CBAs in place to emerge from BK, they just need a ruling. The fact is that the transitional agreements were for the merger and USAPA is STILL filing motions in court and has no agreement in place for 7 years.

Vote no? Yeah, go for it. I don't think we will be waiting seven years though. More like a few years at most. Why? Because the 3/22 term sheet will be implemented, 4,300 jobs will be gone, and you will still be blaming the TWU and saying the judge shouldn't have done that.

The fact remains, no one has gotten a better deal in BK than they had negotiated outside of BK. Is this a great deal? Hell no but didn't we get here because some people recommended a no vote because they KNEW AA was just threatening BK and more money was on the table?

No DIP financing won't get you a pay raise and less outsourcing.

 

[Mr Red]

Is NWA's agreement with AMFA during the BK "labor peace"? Was UAL's agreement and closing of IND and OAK labor peace? Was DL's outsourcing of all airframe overhaul labor peace?

And the transitional agreements were in place for the merger. Had very little to do with BK. AMR does not need CBAs in place to emerge from BK, they just need a ruling. The fact is that the transitional agreements were for the merger and USAPA is STILL filing motions in court and has no agreement in place for 7 years.

Vote no? Yeah, go for it. I don't think we will be waiting seven years though. More like a few years at most. Why? Because the 3/22 term sheet will be implemented, 4,300 jobs will be gone, and you will still be blaming the TWU and saying the judge shouldn't have done that.

The fact remains, no one has gotten a better deal in BK than they had negotiated outside of BK. Is this a great deal? Hell no but didn't we get here because some people recommended a no vote because they KNEW AA was just threatening BK and more money was on the table?

No DIP financing won't get you a pay raise and less outsourcing.

What are you talking about Delta has a big overhaul and MRO operation.Be a man and have some pride VOTE NO !

 

[enough already]

Still voting NO!

 

[exs]

Is NWA's agreement with AMFA during the BK "labor peace"? Was UAL's agreement and closing of IND and OAK labor peace? Was DL's outsourcing of all airframe overhaul labor peace?

And the transitional agreements were in place for the merger. Had very little to do with BK. AMR does not need CBAs in place to emerge from BK, they just need a ruling. The fact is that the transitional agreements were for the merger and USAPA is STILL filing motions in court and has no agreement in place for 7 years.

Vote no? Yeah, go for it. I don't think we will be waiting seven years though. More like a few years at most. Why? Because the 3/22 term sheet will be implemented, 4,300 jobs will be gone, and you will still be blaming the TWU and saying the judge shouldn't have done that.

The fact remains, no one has gotten a better deal in BK than they had negotiated outside of BK. Is this a great deal? Hell no but didn't we get here because some people recommended a no vote because they KNEW AA was just threatening BK and more money was on the table?

No DIP financing won't get you a pay raise and less outsourcing.

I guess we know who's voting YES!!!

 

[Vortilon]

Overspeed, why don't you grow a set? You have got to to be one of the only TWU sympathizers on the property. What does that tell you?

 

[Tex-Mech]

Overspeed, why don't you grow a set? You have got to to be one of the only TWU sympathizers on the property. What does that tell you?

He must sell the deal or be out of his international job. I am out of a job either way, so if my no vote gets you booted out of your international gig all the more pleasure for me.

 

[700UW]

Is NWA's agreement with AMFA during the BK "labor peace"? Was UAL's agreement and closing of IND and OAK labor peace? Was DL's outsourcing of all airframe overhaul labor peace?

And the transitional agreements were in place for the merger. Had very little to do with BK. AMR does not need CBAs in place to emerge from BK, they just need a ruling. The fact is that the transitional agreements were for the merger and USAPA is STILL filing motions in court and has no agreement in place for 7 years.

Vote no? Yeah, go for it. I don't think we will be waiting seven years though. More like a few years at most. Why? Because the 3/22 term sheet will be implemented, 4,300 jobs will be gone, and you will still be blaming the TWU and saying the judge shouldn't have done that.

The fact remains, no one has gotten a better deal in BK than they had negotiated outside of BK. Is this a great deal? Hell no but didn't we get here because some people recommended a no vote because they KNEW AA was just threatening BK and more money was on the table?

No DIP financing won't get you a pay raise and less outsourcing.

Northwest was in Chapter 11 after the strike and never reached an agreement with AMFA and the POR was approved, was it not?

 

[TWU informer]

Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed.

Voting NO will require negotiations to continue with a deadline for AA to get a plan together.

AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization.

Removing this leverage now is the worst thing a Union person could do.

The TWU is attempting to use unfounded fear to get you to vote to remove the only leverage we have left.

The reason the TWU is doing this is to attempt to save jobs and dues payers.

If you are willing to sellout the future of the profession, then vote YES.

If you are willing to take a stand and stop the bleeding this profession has suffered then vote NO.

AA is not even asking to cancel your contract, they are asking to modify your contract to reduce cost.

If the contract were to be cancelled then job actions could take place and the company could not obtain injunctions to stop job actions.

If the contract were to be cancelled then there would be NO closed shop and the TWU would suffer loss of dues income.

Your contract will NOT be cancelled, it will be modified and negotiations must resume.

Neither AA or the TWU will seek complete cancellation of your contract.

TWU is the only Union "tapping" out before the fight even begins.

AA Pilots and F/A's are not in any hurry to sellout their members like the TWU is.

AA Pilots and F/S's are basically sitting and whittling sticks while the TWU is running around like a chicken without a head.

The TWU is only doing this to save some jobs and cannot even give you an exact number being saved.

The Outsource Language will allow AA to reduce headcount anyway over the six agreement period. No jobs are really being saved at all.

In 1995 we gave them 25% SRP's and 6 1/2% over 6 years in pay raises to save jobs and turn this company around.

In 2003 we gave 17.5% paycut, Holidays, Vacation, and Sick time to turn this company around.

2012....17 years later, you are being asked to give again.

We cannot save AA from itself with concessions. This has been proven over 17 years.

Now is the time to take a stand and stop the concessions for jobs that does nothing to secure your overall future.

How many times must you allow the TWU to use FEAR to destroy your own future and job to save an imaginary headcount that turns out to be untrue?


VOTE NO, TAKE A STAND, DO NOT BEND TO TWU FEAR!!!

 

[dc10boy]

Brundage is gone.Gone for specific reasons there is more to this then meets the eye. (although he now consults)it is possible if we vote this down the pace/style of negotiations could change somewhat.Abrogation is not a slam dunk, Multiple reports have AA struggling to provide the burden of proof and justifying the depth of their demands in court.Brundage is said to have made multiple errors in court.

 

[AANOTOK]

Brundage is gone.Gone for specific reasons there is more to this then meets the eye. (although he now consults)it is possible if we vote this down the pace/style of negotiations could change somewhat.Abrogation is not a slam dunk, Multiple reports have AA struggling to provide the burden of proof and justifying the depth of their demands in court.Brundage is said to have made multiple errors in court.

Just out of curiosity, where are those "multiple reports", I would like to read them for myself.