Points to Ponder

[dfw gen]

Slip always shows when your bent over and the skirt is flipped up

 

[TWU informer]

Look at the term sheet dated 3/22. It does say in bolded type that the 1.5% raises are contingent on reaching an agreement. That is in the Company's 3/22 ask so they will "ask" the judge to abrogate and then impose the new term sheet with no raises. We do however have the right to continue to negotiate minus 4,300 jobs.

Tell the truth

I am still a NO VOTE

We can do better, and 4300 jobs is your only concern. Most likely because you are one of them.

I am trying to maintain a household and a life. It not my job to hire or fire.

In fact I would like to know when you think it became the Union's job to dictate headcount at the expense of pay, benefits, and working conditions of other dues paying members?

You have not enough fear or intimidation to sway me from a NO VOTE on the TWU concessions for jobs. NEVER

I also look forward to an AMFA card in my hand, to cause an NMB vote to remove the TWU from AA property.
And that will also never change. I celebrate loudly the day the vote count is announced.

 

[TWU informer]

Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed.

Voting NO will require negotiations to continue with a deadline for AA to get a plan together.

AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization.

Removing this leverage now is the worst thing a Union person could do.

The TWU is attempting to use unfounded fear to get you to vote to remove the only leverage we have left.

The reason the TWU is doing this is to attempt to save jobs and dues payers.

If you are willing to sellout the future of the profession, then vote YES.

If you are willing to take a stand and stop the bleeding this profession has suffered then vote NO.

AA is not even asking to cancel your contract, they are asking to modify your contract to reduce cost.

If the contract were to be cancelled then job actions could take place and the company could not obtain injunctions to stop job actions.

If the contract were to be cancelled then there would be NO closed shop and the TWU would suffer loss of dues income.

Your contract will NOT be cancelled, it will be modified and negotiations must resume.

Neither AA or the TWU will seek complete cancellation of your contract.

TWU is the only Union "tapping" out before the fight even begins.

AA Pilots and F/A's are not in any hurry to sellout their members like the TWU is.

AA Pilots and F/S's are basically sitting and whittling sticks while the TWU is running around like a chicken without a head.

The TWU is only doing this to save some jobs and cannot even give you an exact number being saved.

The Outsource Language will allow AA to reduce headcount anyway over the six agreement period. No jobs are really being saved at all.

In 1995 we gave them 25% SRP's and 6 1/2% over 6 years in pay raises to save jobs and turn this company around.

In 2003 we gave 17.5% paycut, Holidays, Vacation, and Sick time to turn this company around.

2012....17 years later, you are being asked to give again.

We cannot save AA from itself with concessions. This has been proven over 17 years.

Now is the time to take a stand and stop the concessions for jobs that does nothing to secure your overall future.

How many times must you allow the TWU to use FEAR to destroy your own future and job to save an imaginary headcount that turns out to be untrue?


VOTE NO, TAKE A STAND, DO NOT BEND TO TWU FEAR!!!

 

[eolesen]

Now please limit this thread to one sentence lines of points to ponder.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC AND ABIDE

7.5 hours later:

In 1995 we gave them 25% SRP's and 6 1/2% over 6 years in pay raises to save jobs and turn this company around.

In 2003 we gave 17.5% paycut, Holidays, Vacation, and Sick time to save jobs turn this company around.

2012....17 years later, you are being asked to give again.

Concessions for jobs is the past Overspeed, and voting YES is the condemnation of repeating that failed past.

I won't even bother to post the response immediately above.

If you're going to make requests of other posters, you need to eat your own dogfood, Dave...

 

[TWU informer]

Try reading it again Eric

Now please limit this thread to one sentence lines of points to ponder.

It never said one sentence POST

It said one sentence POINTS

There can be more than one, one sentence point in a single post.

PULL HEAD OUT

 

[TWU informer]

7.5 hours later:



I won't even bother to post the response immediately above.

If you're going to make requests of other posters, you need to eat your own dogfood, Dave...

Learn to read and comprehend Eric.

One Sentence POINT does NOT mean
ONe Sentence POST

 

[eolesen]

Dave, you really need to lighten up, or you're going to self-destruct one of these days... You've dealt with much bigger issues than this.

 

[xmarlin]

" AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization...."

will have to...

have to?

consensual agreements must be in place?

must be?

Really?

A source or citation would be helpful

 

[xmarlin]

"I never claimed anything about a raise, but AA has said they will revert to 3/22 term sheet and there are payraises in that sheet. Paltry payraise, but still a payraise."



Do you believe anything that comes out of AA or is it a selective belief system?

 

[odie01]

Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed.

Voting NO will require negotiations to continue with a deadline for AA to get a plan together.

AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization.

Removing this leverage now is the worst thing a Union person could do.

The TWU is attempting to use unfounded fear to get you to vote to remove the only leverage we have left.

The reason the TWU is doing this is to attempt to save jobs and dues payers.

If you are willing to sellout the future of the profession, then vote YES.

If you are willing to take a stand and stop the bleeding this profession has suffered then vote NO.

AA is not even asking to cancel your contract, they are asking to modify your contract to reduce cost.

If the contract were to be cancelled then job actions could take place and the company could not obtain injunctions to stop job actions.

If the contract were to be cancelled then there would be NO closed shop and the TWU would suffer loss of dues income.

Your contract will NOT be cancelled, it will be modified and negotiations must resume.

Neither AA or the TWU will seek complete cancellation of your contract.

TWU is the only Union "tapping" out before the fight even begins.

AA Pilots and F/A's are not in any hurry to sellout their members like the TWU is.

AA Pilots and F/S's are basically sitting and whittling sticks while the TWU is running around like a chicken without a head.

The TWU is only doing this to save some jobs and cannot even give you an exact number being saved.

The Outsource Language will allow AA to reduce headcount anyway over the six agreement period. No jobs are really being saved at all.

In 1995 we gave them 25% SRP's and 6 1/2% over 6 years in pay raises to save jobs and turn this company around.

In 2003 we gave 17.5% paycut, Holidays, Vacation, and Sick time to turn this company around.

2012....17 years later, you are being asked to give again.

We cannot save AA from itself with concessions. This has been proven over 17 years.

Now is the time to take a stand and stop the concessions for jobs that does nothing to secure your overall future.

How many times must you allow the TWU to use FEAR to destroy your own future and job to save an imaginary headcount that turns out to be untrue?


VOTE NO, TAKE A STAND, DO NOT BEND TO TWU FEAR!!!

FWIW Local 567's President Pike and his E-board at AFW are voting NO for this POS and are endorsing a NO vote! Spoke with some E-board members today and they, like most all of us, can't believe this was brought back for a vote. AFW IS A NO

 

[TWU informer]

Dave, you really need to lighten up, or you're going to self-destruct one of these days... You've dealt with much bigger issues than this.

Why is that everytime you are proven to be wrong, the indicter needs to "lighten up"?

nice try to deflect your mistake, but also ineffective.

 

[TWU informer]

Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed.

Voting NO will require negotiations to continue with a deadline for AA to get a plan together.

AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization.

Removing this leverage now is the worst thing a Union person could do.

The TWU is attempting to use unfounded fear to get you to vote to remove the only leverage we have left.

The reason the TWU is doing this is to attempt to save jobs and dues payers.

If you are willing to sellout the future of the profession, then vote YES.

If you are willing to take a stand and stop the bleeding this profession has suffered then vote NO.

AA is not even asking to cancel your contract, they are asking to modify your contract to reduce cost.

If the contract were to be cancelled then job actions could take place and the company could not obtain injunctions to stop job actions.

If the contract were to be cancelled then there would be NO closed shop and the TWU would suffer loss of dues income.

Your contract will NOT be cancelled, it will be modified and negotiations must resume.

Neither AA or the TWU will seek complete cancellation of your contract.

TWU is the only Union "tapping" out before the fight even begins.

AA Pilots and F/A's are not in any hurry to sellout their members like the TWU is.

AA Pilots and F/S's are basically sitting and whittling sticks while the TWU is running around like a chicken without a head.

The TWU is only doing this to save some jobs and cannot even give you an exact number being saved.

The Outsource Language will allow AA to reduce headcount anyway over the six agreement period. No jobs are really being saved at all.

In 1995 we gave them 25% SRP's and 6 1/2% over 6 years in pay raises to save jobs and turn this company around.

In 2003 we gave 17.5% paycut, Holidays, Vacation, and Sick time to turn this company around.

2012....17 years later, you are being asked to give again.

We cannot save AA from itself with concessions. This has been proven over 17 years.

Now is the time to take a stand and stop the concessions for jobs that does nothing to secure your overall future.

How many times must you allow the TWU to use FEAR to destroy your own future and job to save an imaginary headcount that turns out to be untrue?


VOTE NO, TAKE A STAND, DO NOT BEND TO TWU FEAR!!!

 

[Overspeed]

" AS the deadline nears AA will have to move closer to the Unions demand or no plan to emerge will be approved because consensual agreements with the Unions must be in place before judge will approve a plan of reorganization...."

will have to...

have to?

consensual agreements must be in place?

must be?

Really?

A source or citation would be helpful

US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005.

In 2007 an arbitrator came up with an integrated seniority list and at about the same time the US Airways pilots formed a new independent union called USAPA.

Since that time they have filed lawsuits that have not been heard and they still don't have an agreement 7 years after BK hearings ended.

Bottom line?

An airline can emerge from BK without consensual agreements.

A new independent union did not solve the members problems.

Not coming to an agreement prior to emerging from BK most likely will not fast track an agreement after BK.

USAPA has been working every angle since 2007.

Ready to wait seven years for an agreement?

Hey that's more than the current LBO of six years...hmmmmm

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/06/04/20110604us-airways-pilot-negotiations.html

 

[TWU informer]

I still stick by my many points to ponder and this case.

In this case AA has no DIP at this time.
In this case AA has 4.5 billion in cash.

No case from the past will set an affirmative precedent for this case because these facts make it dissimilar to any other case, and enough so that it will be advanced on its own.

Your attempts to attack independent Unions is laughable.
You belong to the most DOCILE UNION in this indsutry (TWU), and all you can do is throw rocks at and about another union to deflect the truth that yours sucks really bad.

Your Union SUCKS so bad, you need to sweep the crap off of your own porch before even looking at the dirt on anothers.

I AM VOTING NO
I WANT MY UNION TO FIGHT

I WOULD RATHER FIGHT AND LOSE THAN GIVE INTO THE CONCESSIONS FOR JOBS IDEA AGAIN!!!

Concessions for Jobs has failed us in the past. You want to view failures of other unions while your own union is once again using FEAR in an attempt at selling another version of a plan that has been tried, failed, and screwed many a Union Worker.

Wake the "F" Up and hold your own union accountable before using other unions problems to peddle this POS LBO!

 

[CMH_GSE]

Informer writes "Your only Union leverage left as this point is that NO plan of Reorganization has ever been approved by a Bankruptcy Court without consensual agreements from Unions on the property. You must force negotiations to move closer to the emergence plan deadline to succeed."

Overspeed writes: "US Airways pilots have been without a consensual agreement since BK.

The US Airways pilots did not agree to a deal and US still emerged from BK and the merger with America West in 2005. "


What do we get from Informer?



Crickets.