Pilot labor thread 5/4-5/10

[HogDriver]

Indeed the case sir..and here we yet are..striving to make sense of "commercial aviation", with all it's inherent insanities..sheesh One thing sadly, and often overlooked by "some" it seems..is the inherent need to have actual "Respect" for pilots. To be fully honest? = Many on these boards are pretty much "I bought my certificate..and..Mom says that I can even fly a thirty-whole -degree bank!!!" the "qualifications" have truly sunk to that level...I'm, very sadly...NOT kidding in the least...as you also, fully know as to how "things are" these days.

PS: And NO intended disrespect to all the tanks/tracks that you folks killed, but... Umm..I DO seem to recall Third Armoured Divison, as having "SOME" slight degree of "interaction" with the Medina Division's obliteration My Bad..we'd have to properly form up, and drink heavilly over all this...in order to "fix" perspectives properly

I did have a very secure playground thanks to all those go-fast jets. But I started to feel sorry for them after the first few days of major combat ops and the CAP guys would ask for our strike freq so they could listen in on the carnage. Poor bastards had scared the IAF so bad they would not come out to play and they had nothing to do but make sky-doughnuts. The 3rd ID did have a hand in taking care of business. We made sure to leave a few tanks untouched so the M-1's could join in. There were so many targets there was plenty for all.

I started my post with a half laugh at some of the attitudes these other "pro" pilots have on this and other boards. I guess I come from a different era....am I really that old??? You want to really weep?? Go to you tube and type in USAPA to see the pre-election road show in PHX. My Jr. High School had more mature meetings. My hope is leveling and rationalizing our pay system takes some of the fight out of this mess.

Dice??? Crud??? Fights on! First round is on me!

 

[EastUS]

I did have a very secure playground thanks to all those go-fast jets. But I started to feel sorry for them after the first few days of major combat ops and the CAP guys would ask for our strike freq so they could listen in on the carnage. Poor bastards had scared the IAF so bad they would not come out to play and they had nothing to do but make sky-doughnuts. The 3rd ID did have a hand in taking care of business. We made sure to leave a few tanks untouched so the M-1's could join in. There were so many targets there was plenty for all.

I started my post with a half laugh at some of the attitudes these other "pro" pilots have on this and other boards. I guess I come from a different era....am I really that old??? You want to really weep?? Go to you tube and type in USAPA to see the pre-election road show in PHX. My Jr. High School had more mature meetings. My hope is leveling and rationalizing our pay system takes some of the fight out of this mess.

Dice??? Crud??? Fights on! First round is on me!

yeah, yeah...Ok, OK..Roger All sir..sigh...BUT...we DID actually take the good time and trouble to at least kill the entire damn Iraqi Air Farce first though, not to mention their communications and control elements...fair's fair ..that left you guys to "play nice' with the tanks of your choosing Sheesh!..not the LEAST bit of dammm gratitude from SOME people!..Harrumph! Ok, Ok..SO?..we ran outta' enemy planes...YOU guys got to spend some goodly time chasing mobile scud sites...Nyaah, Nyaah!.Sigh..we all have our burdens to bear it seems

"Dice??? Crud??? Fights on! First round is on me!" Done deal.."Two's In" I already got the first round, as promised Bro

 

[sagurao]

"also i do think it is honorable to ask people to abide by a decision that there reps at the time promised to abide by." yeah..Riiight...can you honestly, even imagine..your personally preaching to me, face to face, about your imaginary "honor"?..when all it amounts to is your trying to take 20 years of flying/service to the company away from my junior comrades?:...Nice try.

WTF do YOU even pretend to know about "Honor"? Let me guess = "I was an AWA "Hero" at the Alpoid Battle of east-west seniority!"???..and...by God Allmaighty...I'm special, and peop;e like me"..so..naturally..some East Pilot's time...I thought nothing of...and I took... Some notions of "honor"...

1. you don't know me so don't pretend you do.
2. how come when someone offers an argument you cant answer with a logical thought you get all pissy?
3. your dd214 isn't any different then mine so don't think it makes you special!
4. i don't need to be your hero it looks like you are doing a fine job on your own.
5. people do like me

p.s. my girlfriend only stalled 3 times I must not be that bad a driving instructor.

 

[EastUS]

1. you don't know me so don't pretend you do.

Likewise..although I neither pretend to "know you" nor, do I think myself much inclined to wish to ever suffer that particular trial, unless you eventually grow up a very great deal.....do you have any supposed "point"?

No matter. Have a good evening, and..events will work out the differences....

 

[HogDriver]

Just to get a few things straight. for all you guy who think we love alpa out west your wrong. we just don't want an award that we legaly recieved taken away from us. getting alpa back would be my second choise behind keeping usapa and having a judge tell you that the nic sticks.

also i do think it is honorable to ask people to abide by a decision that there reps at the time promised to abide by. just like you guys expect the company not to work you past rules that alpa negotiated for you.

And if you think is was crazy old nic that screwd up then why aren't you just asking to hold the arbitration hearings over again with someone new? 'cause i have enough faith in an outside expert that the result would end up very much the same.

on the subject of honor i wonder how many recalled fo's had to lie about giving up there recall rights to get hired at other companies? also if we could obtain said forms could we have there L.O.S's reduced to zero? I know of one in particular that came back on the west side who had just signed a 2yr commitment 2weeks before he was recalled and he bailed on them. where does that rank on the honor scale?

Sagurao...I understand the west position. Can't say I blame you for wanting the Nic to stand as it was binding..etc. However, the award was based on incorrect data, did amount to a windfall, and by those two points did not meet ALPA merger policy.

I was hired in Jan 89, furloughed for one year in '03 (while serving in Afghanistan and Iraq) and returned in '04. But because my union ALPA allowed the debacle that was MidAtlantic Airways to happen, I was listed as furloughed in the list submitted to Nic. In fact A-West ALPA lawyers argued to keep me and about 200 of my fellow 18 year pilots off the active list. I was not furloughed. I will spare you all the details as it is a long, convaluted story, but suffice to say I was flying for US Air, paid by US Air, and represented by US Air MEC prior to and at the time of the merger. The Nic put me below the bottom 2005 new hire that was still in training at the time. Is that fair? Should a group of pilots benefit at the expense of another group simply due to timing?

A point that seems to get lost in the arguement is that because of the retirement slots we bring to the merger, the east has moved up on the seniority list by about 400 numbers in just over a year. The west had only a few retirements in that period. I now can hold bottom capt on the 190, and bottom f/o on the 330 or 767. That means a west 2005 hire could hold those seats in his second or third year while I would be below him until I retire. Can you say windfall? We argued DOH because all the retirements we have vs west would rebalance things in a few short years.

The problem begins and ends with ALPA, in that as a union it has failed to have the foresight to design an all encompassing plan for deregulated mergers. It removed DOH, the one simple item that we all sign on to when we take a job at a carrier. That has opened the door for lawyers and arbitrators. How many of those a-holes have ever been in a cockpit? DOH determines your whole career right up until another carrier joins the mess, then all hell breaks out. A true union would say DOH....period. A true union would say rationalize the pay for ALL pilots. There would not be the warfare we find ourselves in now if they had.

We have a lawsuit that is well underway seeking damages from the Nic which may negate it's existance in the long run. USAPA is trying to come up with a fair way to integrate the lists with out windfall to anyone. Can it be done? Maybe, but the old ways were not cutting it.

That is why I voted for a new approach to saving my career.

Here is a great article about seniority and the state of our industry. Take a look.

http://pilotunity.com/seniority/

 

[Junebug172]

Sagurao...I understand the west position. Can't say I blame you for wanting the Nic to stand as it was binding..etc. However, the award was based on incorrect data, did amount to a windfall, and by those two points did not meet ALPA merger policy.

I was hired in Jan 89, furloughed for one year in '03 (while serving in Afghanistan and Iraq) and returned in '04. But because my union ALPA allowed the debacle that was MidAtlantic Airways to happen, I was listed as furloughed in the list submitted to Nic. In fact A-West ALPA lawyers argued to keep me and about 200 of my fellow 18 year pilots off the active list. I was not furloughed. I will spare you all the details as it is a long, convaluted story, but suffice to say I was flying for US Air, paid by US Air, and represented by US Air MEC prior to and at the time of the merger. The Nic put me below the bottom 2005 new hire that was still in training at the time. Is that fair? Should a group of pilots benefit at the expense of another group simply due to timing?

A point that seems to get lost in the arguement is that because of the retirement slots we bring to the merger, the east has moved up on the seniority list by about 400 numbers in just over a year. The west had only a few retirements in that period. I now can hold bottom capt on the 190, and bottom f/o on the 330 or 767. That means a west 2005 hire could hold those seats in his second or third year while I would be below him until I retire. Can you say windfall? We argued DOH because all the retirements we have vs west would rebalance things in a few short years.

The problem begins and ends with ALPA, in that as a union it has failed to have the foresight to design an all encompassing plan for deregulated mergers. It removed DOH, the one simple item that we all sign on to when we take a job at a carrier. That has opened the door for lawyers and arbitrators. How many of those a-holes have ever been in a cockpit? DOH determines your whole career right up until another carrier joins the mess, then all hell breaks out. A true union would say DOH....period. A true union would say rationalize the pay for ALL pilots. There would not be the warfare we find ourselves in now if they had.

We have a lawsuit that is well underway seeking damages from the Nic which may negate it's existance in the long run. USAPA is trying to come up with a fair way to integrate the lists with out windfall to anyone. Can it be done? Maybe, but the old ways were not cutting it.

That is why I voted for a new approach to saving my career.

The award was based on factual data that was undisputed by your MC or MEC. In fact, your own reps understood you were furloughed. Take this email exchange for instance:

Seth,

Please let me cut to the chase. If "some of the excellent representatives" have been feeding the MDA pilots this, you are being manipulated for political purposes, i.e., your votes in LEC elections. I have never once heard, either in public or private, any indication that anyone on, or associated with, this MEC wants the Company to sell MDA, for any reason, and certainly not for the totally bizarre reasons that you have suggested.

In fact, quite the contrary is true. MDA is an asset of US Airways, and to sell any asset in this business is tantamount to burning the furniture to stay warm. Thus it was a sad day for all of us when the Company announced this sale, and especially so because we all have friends who were furloughed and now work on MDA. I was a former Shuttle pilot, we were a tight group, and as you know many former Shuttle pilots who were furloughed went to MDA. To now imply that I, as a member of this MEC, want to see them gone, especially for the reasons you mentioned, is absurd.

I felt so strongly about this that on April 18 I brought a Resolution to the MEC to immediately grieve this MDA transaction, and the Reps from PHL and PIT, who had control of the MEC through the Roll Call vote, would not allow it to go forward.

This issue was debated in closed session, but I will tell you that the very thought of immediately grieving this sale sent a wave of panic through many in the room, including the MDA pilots (except one) on the MDA Task Force, and against the recommendations of our advisors your "excellent representatives" decided to do nothing.

Today, we are where we are because of that inaction, and living, as I posted on the AAA WebBoard, a "Fait Accompli Nightmare." As our advisors predicted, Republic and US Airways have moved forward with their interpretation of this transaction, and the only legal remedy now left available to us is to wait for the arbitrator to render his decision.

The political demagogues have twisted these basic truths into their own self-serving agenda so that the MDA pilots in their bases will hate all others but them, and vote accordingly. Despite their rhetoric, even when they had the Roll Call vote your heroes have never introduced a Resolution that would commit the MEC to classifying the MDA pilots as "Mainline" pilots. Why? Because they lacked the courage of a conviction to fight that fight, just like they did on April 18, and would much prefer to deceive and manipulate those, like yourself, who desperately want to believe in them.

Garland

SOURCE


DOH works at your own airline, but this isn't your own airline. We each brought in career expectations with the west's outlook being a bit brighter than the east's. Your DOH died along with AAA as did mine when AWA ceased to exist. Your argument is tantamount to stating that you should be able to walk into another new-hire class and bring with you your AAA DOH.

And to blame National for the debacle instead of your own local (as evidenced in the above email) is ludicrous. Your own pilots, if anyone, dropped the ball like they have on many previous occasions.

And legally, the list as been accepted by both National and the company. Now USAPA has inherited all of that of the time being and Seham agrees that should this merger occur, Nic will be used as the snapshot for the east.

And your MDA lawsuit is hanging on by only a thread. Motion to dismiss on all counts was granted on March 27th. Judge Gershon did grant a motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint and that first one was already dismissed. I do believe another amended complaint has been filed, but there is still a long way to go in discovery.

And even if the plaintiff does win, the list should remain untouched.

 

[sagurao]

Hogdriver, thanks for a well thought out response. I get that you guys "brought" attrition to the table and you "brought" wide bodies to the table. Unlike some people I believe in the "we brought..." argument. But with any merger you need to take the good with the bad. And if you are going to talk about what the east brought then you have to talk about what the west brought. Obviously this is all our opinion vs. yours but we "brought" a company that was not facing potential liquidation and we "brought" a padding of protection from furlows and we brought an actively upgraiding pilot force and growing (slowly) fleet. I'm not trying to be snide but how many of your guys vs. our guys were upgrading when the merger was anounced?
I often wonder what kind of plans the average USAir pilot was making "in case" the company announced liquidation. At the time I was buying another rental house and had no worries about that.
I hope this doesn't come across as rude to you, but since you took the time to tell me your incites I thought it only proper to do the same.

 

[sagurao]

Likewise..although I neither pretend to "know you" nor, do I think myself much inclined to wish to ever suffer that particular trial, unless you eventually grow up a very great deal.....do you have any supposed "point"?

No matter. Have a good evening, and..events will work out the differences....

More personal attacks and no actual response to my questions. :down: I thought you were better than that.

ps I liked the link to the singing doctors

 

[EastUS]

More personal attacks and no actual response to my questions. :down: I thought you were better than that.

ps I liked the link to the singing doctors

I thought it a kindness, merely not to proceed by "answering" your various, and fully presumptive insults =

"2. how come when someone offers an argument you cant answer with a logical thought you get all pissy?
3. your dd214 isn't any different then mine so don't think it makes you special!
4. i don't need to be your hero it looks like you are doing a fine job on your own.
5. people do like me"

OK..fair's fair = #5 isn't an insult.

Again though: Do you have a/some/any actual point to make? ..other than "you get all pissy"?

 

[HogDriver]

The award was based on factual data that was undisputed by your MC or MEC. In fact, your own reps understood you were furloughed. DOH works at your own airline, but this isn't your own airline. We each brought in career expectations with the west's outlook being a brighter than the east's. Your DOH died along with AAA as did mine. Your argument is tantamount to stating that you should be able to walk into another new-hire class and bring with you your AAA DOH.

And to blame National for the debacle instead of your own local (as evidenced in the above email) is ludicrous. Your own pilots, if anyone, dropped the ball like they have on many previous occasions.

And legally, the list as been accepted by both National and the company. Now USAPA has inherited all of that of the time being and Seham agrees that should this merger occur, Nic will be used as the snapshot for the east.

And your MDA lawsuit is hanging on by only a thread. Motion to dismiss on all counts was granted on March 27th. Judge Gershon did grant a motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint and that first one was already dismissed. I do believe another amended complaint has been filed, but there is still a long way to go in discovery.

And even if the plaintiff does win, the list should remain untouched.





June

The supplemental is going forward. The original was dismissed due to statute of limitations. It is on appeal. I am no lawyer, but I do know when a union takes a group from it's ranks and throws it under the bus. I agree we have mostly our local MEC to blame, but a national union can not function if there are one set of rules for some and a different set for another. Our MEC had agreed after a time that we were in fact a part of "mainline" and had submitted our group as a part of the list. The company had played a shell game with MDA making it difficult to determine status. Sometimes it would benefit them to have us a part of mainline....like for training and the ultimate sale to Republic, other times they claimed a seperate status like for our pay. Our union failed us when it was uncovered just what our real status was. They did not go to bat for us as we were a small group, but they should have fought like a real union would have and we would not be having this discussion.

I understand your view about DOH. But once DOH was removed from National ALPA as a hard and fast policy, it opened the door to a huge mess that will always cause conflict. Going back to my original post, I feel the only way out of this is to take away the big disparity in pay by rationalizing based on LOS vs seat and equipment. If I know I will earn the max pay available....or close to it regardless of what equipment or seat I get access to, then seniority issues suddenly mean alot less than before.

 

[HogDriver]

Hogdriver, thanks for a well thought out response. I get that you guys "brought" attrition to the table and you "brought" wide bodies to the table. Unlike some people I believe in the "we brought..." argument. But with any merger you need to take the good with the bad. And if you are going to talk about what the east brought then you have to talk about what the west brought. Obviously this is all our opinion vs. yours but we "brought" a company that was not facing potential liquidation and we "brought" a padding of protection from furlows and we brought an actively upgraiding pilot force and growing (slowly) fleet. I'm not trying to be snide but how many of your guys vs. our guys were upgrading when the merger was anounced?
I often wonder what kind of plans the average USAir pilot was making "in case" the company announced liquidation. At the time I was buying another rental house and had no worries about that.
I hope this doesn't come across as rude to you, but since you took the time to tell me your incites I thought it only proper to do the same.

Point taken. We were on the ropes no doubt. Any number of scenarios could have happened. Problem is same thing is going on now. US Air will run out of cash in less than a year with oil at current levels. UAL has even less time to burn. How do we merge that? The have widebodies...we have them...etc. It goes on and on again for the next go-round.

I wish we had a tried and true Union system...like the Flight Attendants. We merge...DOH. There. Done. Pay is not an issue because it is based on LOS. Only trips, reserve vacation use seniority. Our mess will go on for years and maybe never get settled and there will be pilots who make less than others just by the stroke of an arbitrators crusty hand. Unless we balance and rationalize the way we ALL get paid.

See you on the line...time for bed

 

[exB717Flyer]

Check out the Wikipedia site on USAPA: Wiki

Some obvious errors (lies) have recently been corrected.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Check out the Wikipedia site on USAPA: Wiki

Some obvious errors (lies) have recently been corrected.

Oh, goodie. A contest of editing and reediting wiki to ensue.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Check out the Wikipedia site on USAPA: Wiki

Some obvious errors (lies) have recently been corrected.

You need to grow up and get a clue.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You need to grow up and get a clue.

Okay, Mr. Message Board Tough Guy ad hominem Attacker, go ahead and tell me how correcting obvious errors demonstrates immaturity or cluelessness. USAPA may be our collective bargaining agent but they certainly don't represent us.