Pilot labor thread 5/4-5/10

[traderjake]

Since they took away your lottery ticket? Since they won't give your their careers? Just why are you so hateful towards anybody, let alone your compatriots. Shows serious immaturity to me.

Only an East pilot calls not having your job stolen "a winning lottery ticket".

Everyone else calls it dodging a bullet.

 

[EastUS]

More immaturity.

Pretty much...nothing new there. "You guys haven't taken anything, just prolonged it. You have given up your honor."

Translation="Give me your twenty+ years worth of work credit!...or, you have no honor"..."I want advancement over you based solely on my being hired at AWA, and despite your many years of additional experience and work perfomed...I'm honorable though, because, regardless of my relative inexperience; I think I'm something really, really SPECIAL ...just ask ME!!...and you're not!...'cuzz I SAY so!!..If you don't agree with all that..you have no honor!" I can't really see the slightest problem with that devastating "logic" myself

Well....give 'em proper points for consistency, at least within the world of banal, baseless, bs insults. <_<

None of their ranting insults have, nor will ever amount to zip, nor will any of such bs actually effect anything.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Glad you finally see the writing on the wall.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Only an East pilot calls not having your job stolen "a winning lottery ticket".

Everyone else calls it dodging a bullet.

living in de past

 

[FlyUs]

This is not my battle to fight but can someone explain why the Shuttle pilots were not integrated by DOH ? Just curious why the east pilots wanted date of hire with this merger but didn't give the shuttle pilots their DOH.

 

[700UW]

Nor did they give the Empire Pilots DOH, after the US/PI Merger.

 

[JetMonkey]

Pretty much...nothing new there. "You guys haven't taken anything, just prolonged it. You have given up your honor."

Translation="Give me your twenty+ years worth of work credit!...or, you have no honor"..."I want advancement over you based solely on my being hired at AWA, and despite your many years of additional experience and work perfomed...I'm honorable though, because, regardless of my relative inexperience; I think I'm something really, really SPECIAL ...just ask ME!!...and you're not!...'cuzz I SAY so!!..If you don't agree with all that..you have no honor!" I can't really see the slightest problem with that devastating "logic" myself

Well....give 'em proper points for consistency, at least within the world of banal, baseless, bs insults. <_<

None of their ranting insults have, nor will ever amount to zip, nor will any of such bs actually effect anything.

What he's talking about is its honorable for someone to only take what belongs to him. I was at 94% pre-merger, that's what I earned and that's all I wanted in return, nothing more. Afterward I ended up at...94%, that's exactly where I and everone else should've ended up, nothing more. That's honorable. What was your 20+year guy at before the merger? Why do you now want him/her 40,50,60% higher on the list than where they were at? Where the hell's the honor in that?? If that 20+ year work credit was worth so much why was he furloughed? When are you people gonna accept the fact that longevity and seniority are two totally different things!! One is worth something and unfortunately the other doesn't. One means better pay, more time off, better schedules, etc.. the other doesn't. One actually means holding a job, the other means you hope someday to come back to a job...It's simple people, you just have to accept it. And the sooner the better.

 

[flynomore]

This is not my battle to fight but can someone explain why the Shuttle pilots were not integrated by DOH ? Just curious why the east pilots wanted date of hire with this merger but didn't give the shuttle pilots their DOH.

======================================================================
=

In the lead up to the mechanic's strike at EAL, Lorenzo planned to operate the shuttle as a spinned off airline, named "Air Shuttle" or similar. In order to be employed at this new company, any EAL pilot needed to resign their Eastern seniority number and terminate their employment from EAL prior to the start of their employment. A bid was put out and EAL pilots bid in seniority order for these openings contingent upon the start of the new company. Until then, EAL continued to operate the shuttle.

After the strike in March 1989, EAL operated the shuttle as part of its rebuilding schedule. Once Donald Trump entered the picture, the old bid was resurected and the striking pilots were employed by Trump in EAL seniority order with a late 1989 DOH. EAL then concentrated on breaking the strike until ceasing operations after the start of the first Gulf war.

After the Donald hit hard times, his banks decided to call the notes and sought an operator to keep the Shuttle operating and the USAir Shuttle was born where USAir managed and had a first right of refusal to purchase. Once the purchase took place merger policy caused much debate about which DOH to use. Some hardliners wanted the 1989 date that Trump started operations, very few (IMO) suggested allowing the original EAL DOH to be used. The argument for 1989 held up the resignation letter from EAL; the argument for EAL DOH for principled reasons. Nicalou was chosen as the arbitrator and used a captain ratio (1:17? can't remember) starting from the last DC9 or equivalent captain, then the same for the first officers and stuck the engineers after all the current first officers.

I may have it wrong in some specifics, but the gist was that the EAL (Trump) guys had nothing to lose by arbitration. Their small numbers and higher average age made sure that their slotting caused little impact on the USAir list. Why IMO no one accepts this Nicalou list is the wholesale gift of US Airways attrition to the AWA pilots at the expense of the junior (at the time of the merger) US Airways pilots.

That no one in either MEC could become creative enough to solve the dilema is why ALPA was decertified.

 

[flynomore]

Nor did they give the Empire Pilots DOH, after the US/PI Merger.

===============================================

Actually it is addressed in the Kagel award. Since I was in my first year then and knew that I would be bottom fishing no matter what happened, I didn't pay much attention. I seem to recall that the USAir committee suggested it though.

 

[nostradamus]

Nos I was not hired in 2004!! I know you think you know who I am but you are wrong! If you were correct I would tell, it's an honor thing with me!!! Again as usual with you east folk it was not 3500 pilots either it was 2700. Do you ever tell the thruth or are you dishonest about everythng??

US Airways pilots vote for new union

Dawn Gilbertson
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 18, 2008 12:00 AM
"US Airways' divided pilots resolved one thorny dispute with the election of a new union Thursday, but there already are signs the outcome won't bring labor peace to the 5,200-employee group.

The upstart US Airline Pilots Association handily beat the incumbent Air Line Pilots Association, 2,723 to 2,254, in a vote closely watched for its window into the challenges of airline mergers."

lets see, 1800 america west pilots, 5000 voted. 5000 minus 1800 equals 3200. Did everyone vote? If you have a real honor thing going what date were you hired? 5200 hundred employee group.




NMB pilot count, page four and five

 

[nostradamus]

Still waiting on the "lottery ticket as you call it" however the award help me very little!! I think UNITED will take care of that for me Now if lottery is the way to go then I would say you won by being able to keep a job when Douglas bailed you out!! Not that's a lottery winner for the ages huh???

In a seniority integration, will they count international flying that america west pilots and united airline pilots flew in Australia? I have a link to this below.

"British Airways, Continental, Cathay Pacific, Thai, Lufthansa (I have a copy of theirs), and yes the "Grand Exalted PUBA of the Brotherhood" -- United. Those are the facts mates."

Should we consider this in your career expectations?






The Down UnderWare Chronicles

"The America West presence will be felt there long after we all come home."

"Love him or hate him, Mike Conway is right about this, "We cannot afford to make policy and run this company based on the Jumpseat." His words not mine."

"But, I agree and support his decision to send us to Australia. I am proud of the accomplishments we made and the professional manner with which we made them. Ansett Airlines has learned a lot from us about operating a deregulated airline."

"Of course, I am not so naive as to think that the pilots at America West who insist on stirring the foul smelling bucket of discontent will take the time, but I am sure they couldn't see the forest for the trees anyway."


"It is also worthy to mention that we at America West owe a great deal to
Ansett Airlines and Sir Peter Abeles. We have benefited from a large
amount of equipment from them (much of which was purchased at below market rates) and, also, we have a very large percentage of our company's stock in their hands that needs to be protected from the Donald Trumps of the world. I might also mention that the Australian operation contributes a sizable chunk to our bottom line. We will likely see an increase to our fleet size as a direct result, and we are surely putting ourselves in a position to someday have 747 service into Sydney and Melbourne."

Twenty percent of the stock of AMERICA WEST was owned by ANSETT AIRLINES of Australia and 55% of ANSETT was held by Sir Peter Ables, You america west pilots do owe alot to Sir Peter Abeles, click here



HONOR

 

[prechilill]

This is not my battle to fight but can someone explain why the Shuttle pilots were not integrated by DOH ? Just curious why the east pilots wanted date of hire with this merger but didn't give the shuttle pilots their DOH.

The east pilots wanted a DOH integration for the shuttle pilots but the arbitrator didn't allow it. Nicolau didn't allow the same thing either. When UAL goes to arbitration guess how that will probably go- relative seniority. See the pattern?
When a man like EastUS attempts to tag "honor" to his pious claims it only marks him as a man without answers. That is why he does it and we have been seeing this for about a year now. I look forward to the next merger with UAL when not only does the seniority integration not go by DOH, but he will lose his little union experiment and I can guarantee you the entertainment around here will be better than anything Jerry Springer could come up with. When this happens enjoy watching Eastus' complete meltdown, as well as a few others. And so it goes with the Angry FO club...

 

[EastUS]

The east pilots wanted a DOH integration for the shuttle pilots but the arbitrator didn't allow it. Nicolau didn't allow the same thing either. When UAL goes to arbitration guess how that will probably go- relative seniority. See the pattern?
When a man like EastUS attempts to tag "honor" to his pious claims it only marks him as a man without answers. That is why he does it and we have been seeing this for about a year now. I look forward to the next merger with UAL when not only does the seniority integration not go by DOH, but he will lose his little union experiment and I can guarantee you the entertainment around here will be better than anything Jerry Springer could come up with. When this happens enjoy watching Eastus' complete meltdown, as well as a few others. And so it goes with the Angry FO club...

That's..as usual, nothing more than delusional "thinking" exemplified at it's finest, I'm afraid. My position's always been that any/all craft unions should reasonably use nothing other than date of hire for purposes of seniority. Without doing that?....you have only the purely opportunistic chaos so clearly seen within the current AWA-US debacle. In addition; no actual "value" for any given employee's service is ever properly established, and all become nothing more than interchangeable,"spare parts" that are then subject to managerial whims at all levels. That's about as basic as I can make it for you, and I'm fine with any/all ridiculous insults from yourself and others of your group as per "honor"/etc, since they're readily dismissed as being simply the ignorant displays of the inexperienced, opportunistic, and wholly confused. Airline flying's hardly my "life", nor does Nic effect me personally, and I'm fine with leaving any insults about "honor", personal meltdowns and Jerry Springer behavior to yourself and yours. All out your way are "entitled" to keep their own counsel...regardless if it flies in the face of decades more industry experience and thinking elsewhere.

It's marvelous that you so look eagerly forward to yet another presumed US merger with UA. I hope you're also looking forward to the contained employee reductions that'll necessarily occur from such...No matter I suppose...just so long as you make the happy assumption that you'll personally benefit and get your way...How typical of your group's "Righteous Position" = "It's ALL about MEEeeee!!..and I can't see the forest from the Nic tree!!" "I look forward to the next merger with UAL " Be careful what you wish for in life. In much the same way as you've found your beliefs proved wrong within the AWA-US "merger"...you may well face some substantial, and unpleasant surprises, should another with UA occur. No matter. Time will tell the tale.

 

[john john]

http://www.teamster.org/08news/nr_080501_1.asp
Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa announced on Wednesday that Capt. David Bourne will join the Union as Airline Division Director.
Bourne is a Boeing 747-400 captain who until recently served as the master executive council chairman for the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) unit at Atlas Air, Inc. After leading two organizing drives at Atlas, a bitter court battle and two efforts to secure a contract, in July 2002 he signed the first collective bargaining agreement in Atlas Air’s history.
How long do you have to wait to have another election?
What is teamster’s seniority merger language? I hear they stand in line by seniority to use the bathroom

 

[prechilill]

It's marvelous that you so look eagerly forward to yet another presumed US merger with UA. I hope you're also looking forward to the contained employee reductions that'll necessarily occur form such...No matter I suppose...just so long as you make the assumption that you'll personally get your way... How typical. Time will tell the tale.

I am sorry if my enthusiasm for a prospective merger conflicts with your jaded view of the world. United has much to offer, certainly much more than USAirways East ever had to offer, and together I believe the combined airline can be successful.