Pilot labor thread 5/4-5/10

[sharktooth]

The east pilots wanted a DOH integration for the shuttle pilots but the arbitrator didn't allow it.

Um, shuttle pilots wanted DOH. They wanted their EAL DOH, even though they signed that away to work for the shuttle.

Nicolau didn't allow the same thing either.

Um, same dude. At least try to get your "opinion as facts" straight.

When UAL goes to arbitration guess how that will probably go- relative seniority. See the pattern?

Relative seniority would have been great, had the entire list been used and both contracts equalized to truly make it "relative". Didn't happen then and now, it will not happen.

<personal attack on EastUS removed>
I look forward to the next merger with UAL when not only does the seniority integration not go by DOH, but he will lose his little union experiment and I can guarantee you the entertainment around here will be better than anything Jerry Springer could come up with. When this happens enjoy watching Eastus' complete meltdown, as well as a few others. And so it goes with the Angry FO club...

That will be fine, but you will still be merged with UAL from a DOH list on the US side. Hope you are OK with that.

 

[Pi brat]

When UAL goes to arbitration guess how that will probably go- relative seniority. See the pattern?

Prechill,

The Nic award is not relative position. It is a hybrid that threw everything but the kitchen sink in the mix. DOH, then slotting,then staple.

Have you really stopped to think about what a UA/US list would look like with Nic as the template?

 

[Freighterguynow]

I am sorry if my enthusiasm for a prospective merger conflicts with your jaded view of the world.

Prepare to be jaded yourself when the reception you envision at the hands of the United pilot group does not materialize.

 

[Winglet]

I think UAL ALPA knows exactly what they're dealing with in regards to USAPA. It was ugly during the first abortive merger, and it's going to be much much worse this time around. The downsizing is comin' boys, so get your seat while you can.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Since we in the west are so dense and living the high life on our windfall lottery ticket please expalin to us how to construct the list.

Please keep it simple, we're really slow.

Remember to include the new merger law congress passed in your equation and no group get gets a windfall, you all have pitched a fit over that for the last year, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Also the company restrictions also apply.

 

[luvthe9]

I think UAL ALPA knows exactly what they're dealing with in regards to USAPA. It was ugly during the first abortive merger, and it's going to be much much worse this time around. The downsizing is comin' boys, so get your seat while you can.

Your right you can kiss LAS goodbye, and a big downsize to PHX all Hawaii fight s will be from the coast on UAL, and the cost struture ( labor) is to high on the west side. That would be a good place to start!!!

 

[HogDriver]

Man, Lurking on these boards is sure an interesting and eye opening experience. Where is the love?

As a 23 year pro pilot I see some of these comments from "brother" pilots and I am saddend at the state of our profession. I have seen the enemy and it is us. You can argue all day as to how we got here. Deregulation, poor foresight and daring from ALPA, dumb and greedy managment. Bottom line is we are in an industry that has changed greatly and yet our contracts and approach to saving our careers has not.

I voted out ALPA after being a staunch member for 22 years not just because it abandoned a reasonable merger policy, but also because it has perpetuated the current pilot vs. pilot environment we are in today. The small express ops salivate over mainline routes, merger groups dream of leapfrogging over fellow pilots to gain more pay in a transaction, and lawyers are the only ones (along with management) that make a killing at our expense.

I don't have a solution to all that we....we as in every pilot, not just east or west, face as we merge...consolidate...buyout..what ever. We don't have much say on the business side of it. No one asked me if it was OK to merge with Am West. Not a single Am West pilot had diddly to do with merging with US. We seem to forget...we fly jets. Nothing more. No west pilot saved my ass....wall street did. A merge with UAL may come and there is not a thing any east or west pilot will have to do with it. But we can, as a group, take away one of the biggest weapons that is making all this fighting such a hot issue. We need to change the way we pilots are paid.

The system of being paid by equipment and seat is outdated. It divides haves from have-nots. It creates warfare in the ranks and that is why management loves it. I won't go over the history of holding jets with better pay over our heads, but we all know it is done. Want a 340???? OOOOO man the pay on that will be so great!!! Then sign this contract with other consessions....or maybe we will only give it to one group against the other. It was a pay system designed in a different era, and it is killing us today.

I propose a rationalized, longevity based pay for our group that will take away most of the conflict we face as we merge. There are several ways to approach it and two have made me think they would be better than what we have now. One is straight LOS with no aircraft catagories. A 20 yr. Capt gets the same if he flys a 190 or 330. This works well for US now because we have such a small wide body fleet (why should the best pay go to the smallest group of pilots) and a growing med. fleet. The other way is to pay LOS with a wide body group and a narrow body group. It makes merging groups a no brainer and protects against replacing higher paying equipment with lower paying (ie: 737's for 190's).

Another way to rationalize the pay is close the gap in Capt/FO pay. Yes, a Capt. has the ultimate authority and responsibility, but after being stuck as F/O for many years the gap should narrow as the F/O is paid for his many years experience. A 10-25% gap is more reasonable than the current rates.

In my career since starting at EAL in '85 and US in '89, I have moved up, down, sideways...held widebody, small jet, capt and F/O along with a year on the street. There are no "carrer expectations". There is only the day you start working somewhere. I do not want to "take" anybody's seat...or pay. I want my pay.... a fair pay for all our groups.

Right now Delta and NW are battling over the same issues we are. Soon UAL will join the party. If we continue to do business as usual there will be blood. Rationalizing pay will make all of us winners....not just a few. It will take the sting out of change, and be the fairest way to be compensated for a demanding career. Seniority will still be used for bidding vacation, trips, etc., but everyone wins when it comes to pay for your skills and talent.

We have a short window of opportunity to do this. New Union...new contract...everyones pay artificially low.

If there is a better idea out there I am all ears.

 

[TechBoy]

The system of being paid by equipment and seat is outdated. It divides haves from have-nots. It creates warfare in the ranks and that is why management loves it. I won't go over the history of holding jets with better pay over our heads, but we all know it is done. Want a 340???? OOOOO man the pay on that will be so great!!! Then sign this contract with other consessions....or maybe we will only give it to one group against the other. It was a pay system designed in a different era, and it is killing us today.

I propose a rationalized, longevity based pay for our group that will take away most of the conflict we face as we merge. There are several ways to approach it and two have made me think they would be better than what we have now. One is straight LOS with no aircraft catagories. A 20 yr. Capt gets the same if he flys a 190 or 330.

Totally sensible. It's a shame that it will never happen.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Apparently all is not well in ALPA land. From the CAL Save Contract 2008 website.

The recent near merger with UAL and the deal’s subsequent collapse, serves Continental line pilots as a deciphering code to be able to take an open book look into CAL management philosophy, but even more importantly ALPA agenda at the national level.

Primarily, it shows that our senior management is sound and still acting responsibly in a very challenging era of U.S. airline history. From a position of investment analysis, UAUA has been a bad buy for a long time. In the current environment of fuel price uncertainty, oil price fluctuations alone seem to be driving airline stock prices. Recently, predictable daily moves in airline stock valuations can often be forecast with reasonable accuracy. Price moves are more or less directly attributable and inversely proportional to what ever happens in fuel futures trading pits.

If fuel prices were to stabilize and become less news worthy, managerial action would once again become the more important facet of stock valuation in fuel related sector stock analysis (airlines). For the time being however, fuel price hype provides a dizzying haze, an environment where managerial error and omissions become secondary. Our senior management team and the CAL BOD have seen through that haze and avoided a merger with UAL. ALPA however, has not.

Regardless of whether or not you are inclined to believe that ALPA suffers from the dues loss of US airways, you must see that “at all costs, no more rank losses†becomes the ALPA mantra. If one more of the major ALPA airlines (most obviously UAL or NW) were to become defunct by persisting with inept business plans, antiquated airplanes and head strong egomaniacal management, ALPA would suffer to the point of becoming ineffective & cash starved. It is therefore in ALPA’s best interest to insure a merger goes through concerning these two most obvious crippled players. A loss of one or both of these large ALPA airlines because of bankruptcy liquidation, would take thousands of the highest paid dues contributors off of ALPA’s tithe list.

Enter the CAL pilots. It is imperative for CAL pilots to understand how National ALPA's agenda is a threat to every CAL pilot's job security. As we’ve been saying for months, someone is going to get hurt here. Allow us to be frank, pilots are going to get furloughed and airplanes will be parked for a long time, maybe forever. ALPA national doesn’t care who those pilots are, so much as they don’t want it to happen via bankruptcy liquidation. They would much rather help administrate large furloughs at new combined mega carriers that have solid ALPA ranks, than deal with the loss of an entire pilot group and have questionable support in the ranks of the airlines left standing.

Enter ALPA executive vice president Chris Lynch who just so happens to be a Continental “captainâ€. Mr. Lynch is about as far removed from a line pilot as Mr. Kelner is distant from a baggage handler or a tug driver. A review of Captain Lynch’s staffing for the month of April indicates an odd, 5 line matrix, of personal, company and union leave. He basically hasn’t flown the line with any regularity since the waning days of the 747. Your dues money has paid Mr. Lynch to sit in on recent MEC meetings. This is National ALPA and John Prater’s way of not so subtly steering CAL ALPA’s agenda. They dictate to the pilots. Remember, Mr. Lynch has been named in every trip loss abuse investigation report we have had. He has also been a major player in the negotiation of CBA’02. ALPA and Mr. Prater have an agenda. That agenda is to save ALPA at all cost. If there are CAL pilot as collateral damages, so be it. So? They send a representative.


During the last MEC meeting, some of our reps were trying to protect our pilots in a merger with UAL. Why is a national ALPA officer even in attendance? Allegedly; Chris Lynch stood up and scolded these reps while presenting ALPA’s view "…its now about all 11,000 pilots not just us. Get it through your heads…†While scolding our MEC, Mr. Lynch is saying we should willingly sacrifice CAL pilots for the good of ALPA. Allowing UAL to have their way with our seniority list would effectively have done just that. Call your rep and ask them exactly what Mr. Lynch said (or meant) and what they are going to do about it. This merger “window of opportunity†hasn’t fully closed yet, so threats still exist. UAL is ALPA and ALPA is UAL.

At the same time Mr. Jim Brucia is on board with team Prater/Lynch. Working for the good of the association, we believe his actions are not in the best interests of the CAL pilots. Mr. Brucia has been very open about his personal seniority as it would have related to a UAL merger. If we correctly understand the thought process, he has publicly espoused the opinion that his ‘81 hire date should go ahead of a UAL '78 hire because UAL had furloughed some of these pilots in the late 70's.

This follows a very familiar and dangerous sentiment expressed by many of the CAL pilots who did not honor ALPA’s 1983 strike. They claimed (in court and crew rooms) that the CAL strikers should go behind those who worked through the strike, because strikers were on strike and therefore not on the property. Does ALPA policy now say you can be harmed in a merger because of a past furloughs? What about our pilots who were on furlough in the 90’s, should they now go behind the UAL pilots? Is Mr. Brucia going to throw our pilots under the bus for the good of the association and his management friends? An obvious conflict of interests seems to be a recurrent theme in our union representation.


The opinion has been espoused that the rest of us will be subject to "relative" seniority and might have had pilots from UAL go ahead of CAL pilots out of date of hire order. In other words to hell with the pilots on the list below a certain level. So long as the top and PEX management friends don’t get harmed, what happens to the rest, happens.

Recent LEC and MEC meetings follow a similar pattern. Mr. Brucia stands at these meetings and tells us that we have to trust him and that is the way it is going to be, yet tells us little of substance and wants to hear nothing from our pilots. There is seldom if ever a desire for input from the pilots on what protections we would like to insure, rather a dictation to line pilots on how its going to be. No one pilot should have that much power. Mr. Brucia might be capable of doing a good job, but we can‘t stress enough how dangerous it would be to unleash any individual alone on an unsupervised task of seniority integration. Egos aside, we feel Mr. Brucia needs to be removed from merger responsibilities for the good of the group. His replacement should be an individual with the vision of protecting ALL CAL pilots.

Mr. Brucia was the neutral in the USAIR merger and wrote the dissenting opinion favoring the USAIR pilots. Now he would have to take the opposite position to defend our pilots. How can he now do this after publicly taking the position he has in the USAIR merger? Don't forget Mr. Katz, the attorney for the losing side of that merger, is also our retained attorney. Courts and arbitrators weigh heavily similar situations in similar cases, “precedent setting casesâ€.


Our opinion is that Mr. Brucia should never have taken part in US/AW merger proceedings with the pressure on CAL to find a merger partner. He has gone on public record and that could possibly hurt CAL pilot’s positions in the future. His involvement in the USAirways merger was not about us, but about his personal side work. It now becomes the task of the CAL pilots to separate ourselves from Mr. Brucia’s part time, precedent setting work.

CAL pilots have dodged a merger bullet for now. Don't think for one minute its over. Lets also remember the sacrifices we’ve made and continue to make. Those sacrifices have made CAL the success it now is. UAL is a mess and should be treated that way in a merger. ALPA however, wants us to treat them as an equal. Bring this to the attention of your reps. Demand your dues be spent on what is best for the CAL pilots and not for the good of ALPA or UAL.

I especially liked the part concerning Mr. Brucia. Maybe the rest of the "World" is not in total disagreement with us after all.

 

[EastUS]

I am sorry if my enthusiasm for a prospective merger conflicts with your jaded view of the world. United has much to offer, certainly much more than USAirways East ever had to offer, and together I believe the combined airline can be successful.

It would amaze you to know my actual "view of the world", which is hardly "jaded" but, so imagine if it suits your purposes. Life's a magnificent adventure of itself, and is frequently, further illuminated by the presence of loving, wonderfull, and wholly amazing people...This east-west labor squabble we're involved with isn't much to fret over in the larger scheme..enough on all that though...not trying to preach on any "attitude issues" about "How to Best Live Life 101....since all that's ultimately left up to any given person.

I'd advance reasons for proper caution in your enthusiasm for a UA merger though: "United has much to offer, certainly much more than USAirways East ever had to offer," Agreed there, but note that the "AWA" section of US has virtually NOTHING to offer United...except for a batch-lot of junior pilots seeking a permanently enhanced level of seniority...which..ummm...errr..at least "some" of the UA pilots "may" not find so completely yummy a thought as you may wish to believe. In any case..any merger and "consolidation" will, most very probably, result in portions of the US and UA workforces finding themselves unemployed. It's for that reason, coupled with UA's pathetic balance sheet, and apparent long-term liklihood of not even existing, that I'm not terribly thrilled about joining in any merger hysteria...I've seen enough mergers to know better. The seniorty issues, however substantial, are hardly my biggest concern if such occurs, and won't much effect me personally in any case. I'm more concerned with basic survival of the corporate entity and the employees' well being. The "problem" I have there, is that I don't find everything to be "All about MEEE!, and I've serious reservations about mergers in general. Ummm..how great is THIS one proving out to be?...just for starters?

Umm..Have ANY of your "expectations" been seen through the AWA-US merger?....and yet; you would fantasize that within a US-UA merger..that all will magically be "well"?...There are terms for that sort of "thinking"...Naieve, most certainly,... comes to mind immediately.

 

[EastUS]

Seniority will still be used for bidding vacation, trips, etc., but everyone wins when it comes to pay for your skills and talent.

We have a short window of opportunity to do this. New Union...new contract...everyones pay artificially low.

If there is a better idea out there I am all ears.

Neg argument from my viewpoint, and a well thought-out post methinks sir....especially from someone "foolish" enough to "crop dust" with a 30mm..instead of "sensibly", at least having a burner can or two to actually move fast with Seriously though = Great post.

PS: Small world syndrome..we might have come very close to crossing paths at EAL, USAF, and/or the Sandbox

 

[nycbusdriver]

Man, Lurking on these boards is sure an interesting and eye opening experience. Where is the love?

I haven't been there in quite some time, but the love is most likely on the Southwest Airlines board.

Aside from that, I agree totally that the entire 1950's concept of how pilots are paid should be relegated to the dustbin and the whole process rethought starting from scratch. It is the only way that pilots can regain some control over their futures and our only hope of ever having some semblance of peace in the USAirways pilot ranks. Having a new union at least gives us that piece of the "clean slate" puzzle. I hope we don't miss the opportunity.

 

[nostradamus]

Alpa fud (fear, uncertainty, doubt) video. They warn you about sharks in the water, the danger is actually goats on the gound. Does anyone have a copy of the goat video? Does anyone have the prater video scolding East pilots? No, they took this away, because it shows their out of touch view and makes arses out of them. Hopefully united pilots will see the light and squash merger speculation and possibilities.

A wolf pack, warning you about the sharks video. This condescending video is ridiculous.

I think most united pilots should be concerned with fatal attraction with alpa. The video below shows awa union supporters attitudes and feelings after four years in the business.

Another scary video, from alpa supporters

 

[nostradamus]

"In the America West/US Airways merger, the fight has escalated to the point that, by April 18, those 5,000 pilots may have left ALPA . Some East pilots used a new pseudo-union as a promise to East pilots and a threat against West pilots that they would use their larger numbers to demand a new seniority list with US Airways management. What kind of union bases its existence on overpowering fellow pilots?"

John Prater head of alpa quote

Overpowering fellow pilots?

Lets start with the original airline Frontier. alpa sanctionded chapter 7. Pan Am, if you flew a certain airplane your in, if not your out. Eastern, Braniff, TWA vs american airlines. Atlas and Polar Air apology by alpa. American Eagle pilots bullied by alpa. We are smart enough to know that john prater, leader of alpa has a rug on his head and tries to overpower pilots.

Almost every ALPA pilot group is currently facing the uncertainty of shutdown, merger, spin-off, acquisition, or other corporate transaction. Article

 

[EastUS]

I think most united pilots should be concerned with fatal attraction with alpa. The video below shows awa union supporters attitudes and feelings after four years in the business.

The "old heads" everywhere will base their notions on what they've/we've astually seen happen. The best hope Alpa's got left overall...for even it's continuted existence...is the "youth contingent", in that Alpa's contemporary BS isn't so readilly apparent to them over all the voluminous rhetoric, much less the "gleam" of airline aircraft/supposed lifestyles newly experienced.