Ideas to pass a TA with the mechanics.

[700UW]

Bob,

We had an 85 point plan before our pension was terminated in the second bankruptcy. Age plus years of service. You could retire at 50 but if you wanted medical and I think flight benefits you had to be 55.

I could have left when I reach 52 and have full pension but no benefits.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,

We had an 85 point plan before our pension was terminated in the second bankruptcy. Age plus years of service. You could retire at 50 but if you wanted medical and I think flight benefits you had to be 55.

I could have left when I reach 52 and have full pension but no benefits.

 
Ok, so Early Retirement terms are not protected unless you have already retired. From what I heard from the EBISA, IRS rules do protect those who do retire early, the terms can't be changed after they leave, but terms can be changed even if you are over 55 if you have not exercised the option to retire early. They can cancel our ability to retire at 60 without penalty or before that with a 3% hit per year, what they can't do is make the retirement age past 65. Our ability to retire at 60 is a negotiated perk, and the Association (run by the IAM the first two years) could negotiate that away with rolling us into the IAMNPF.
 
So others have lost the Early Retirement option and if we ended up in the IAMNPF, and our pensions from AA are rolled into it, we would probably lose the early retirement option in as much as we can retire at 60 without penalty and at 55 with a 15% penalty, under the IAMNPF we would lose 24% at 60 and 48% at 55. 
 
Early Retirement is not protected unless you have retired. The terms can be changed if you have not retired.  
 
The way the Government looks at it is Early Retirement is a perk, the reduced benefit when retiring early offsets the increased cost, so eliminating the ability to retire at 60 without any penalty and increasing the hit from 3% to 4.8% doesn't change the value of the pension at 65. Thats how the government looks at it. What the government protects is the value of your pension at 65. 
 
Thats what I got from the conversation. 

 

[700UW]

Those terms were in our CBA when our pension was terminated the plan was turned over to the PBGC and was removed from the final offer that the judge made us vote on.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
TWU is based out of Washington DC, not Local 100 in NYC.
Local 100 is based out of Brooklyn, a borough of NYC, and has many mechanics (some came or still work at AA) .
Harry Lombardo is a Mechanic out of PHL, not Local 100. 
The margin between Fleet and Maintenance is slim. The biggest problem with the current TWU structure is Title II which is spread out between Maintenance and Fleet Locals. Under the TWU structure for negotiations its possible that there could be more Fleet Service clerks sitting in Maintenance negotiations than mechanics. The fix is easy, allow Title II to choose whether they want their own local, all go with fleet or all go with aircraft maintenance, but they should not be all over the place and if they choose either of the first two options they should have their own contract.
 
Under the association its likely that Title II and Stores will have nobody from their class and craft sitting in negotiations. 
 
 
I do agree that the Association is something we need to avoid at any cost. We need one union. The Association will be a disaster and after seeing what the IAM endorsed with a company earning Billions I would not want them to be the one union either. 

Bob, would you specify what kind of mechanic Harry Lombardo was?  I am guessing a bus or train mechanic.  

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, would you specify what kind of mechanic Harry Lombardo was?  I am guessing a bus or train mechanic.  

Not sure, they have Trolleys in Philly as well. Does it really matter? 

 

[Real tired]

Harry Lombardo is president of the TWU International and is a bus driver from Local 100 in NY.  He appointed several people to the Air Transport Division (ATD) and all of them except one were Fleet Service Clerks from AA.  One is a former AMT from Pan Am.  American Airlines AMTs have nobody representing them in the ATD.  In all actuality Fleet Service will determine what AMTs are offered in a TA.  AA Fleet Service is well paid when compared to their peers in the industry, while the AMTs are the absolute lowest in the industry.  This is what you get in a bus driver union with Fleet Service dictating to the ATD.  But this is what we are stuck with.  

Understood.
 
Thanks.

 

[Real tired]

Prior to the first BK did your pension allow you to collect a full pension at 60? Please PM me. 

700 answered correctly.
 
Under the 85 point plan, I would have already been gone.  Now there's no end in sight.
 
Prior and during the first bankruptcy, those that I knew that retired under the 85 point plan when they thought the end was near, lost their medical benefits and had their monthly pension check reduced after the plan went into the PBGC, and the final determination was reached.
 
So everyone lost.  Those who stayed.  And those who bailed out when we were spiraling in.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Not sure, they have Trolleys in Philly as well. Does it really matter? 

Well in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, but as long as he is outside of the airline industry I think he would not be in tune with our needs.  For example, appointing no American Airlines AMTs to the ATD.  One would think he would be able to recognize the difference between a FSC and an AMT.  Apparently not.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, but as long as he is outside of the airline industry I think he would not be in tune with our needs.  For example, appointing no American Airlines AMTs to the ATD.  One would think he would be able to recognize the difference between a FSC and an AMT.  Apparently not.

From the feedback I'm getting from Peterson he is probably more in tune with our needs than Little, Videtich etc. Remember that this is a guy who doesn't kiss managements ass like the Little TeAAm. He participated and led strikes against his employer in PHL. Not to say we don't have our differences but I'd rather have Lombardo than Little. He is a staunch Industrial trade Unionist and no doubt the political arena and the objective to oust Little is what led him to structure his team as he did(It was pretty much a given that the Line and AFW was not going to support Little- putting out where you stand has a price-and Tulsa has been known to jump to whatever side they think is going to win however Fleet was the question mark , plus Alex Rodriguez no doubt had a say so Maintenance was pretty much left out, the excuse was the lawsuit, Lombardo told Peterson drop the lawsuit and name what position you want)
 
I'd asked Little to replace Videtich with Lombardo when I saw how Videtich was doing everything he could to stall talks and give the company their zero cost contract. Of course that never happened. 
 
So while there are differences the fact is that this team thats in place will likely never say to us "You need to lower your expectations", or "Lets put this contract behind us and do whats best for American Airlines", or "you can't expect to be paid like SWA, Fed Ex or UPS" or "Fuel just went up 2 cents this morning, thats gonna cost AA x million more for the year". The hardest part I think will be overcoming the hard core industrial union mentality that prevails in Public Transportation but has never really applied in the airline industry. The concept of having workers in one contract in one Union divided up between several Locals is something that they didn't deal with, and everyone got the same increases. Our structure at present has no rhyme or reason due to Title II being all over the place. Our structure was built around the internal politics of the Union and not whats best for the members. They already tried to apply an Industrial Union approach and that resulted in three craft specific Locals filing to leave the TWU. Then when they look at SWA they see what amounts to two craft Locals within an Industrial Union, where each is totally separate. Separate buildings, separate negotiations, separate contracts, but it works.  Keep in mind that these guys never gave pay cuts and still have medical at minimal costs, good pensions and retiree medical. Unlicensed mechanics at the MTA earn more than Licensed mechanics at AA, with much, much better benefits-we have had several mechanics quit AA and go start over at the MTA. With Fleet Service in control of the ATD, and reletively well positioned among their peers those from fleet will likely push for an across the board approach where everyone gets an equal slice of the pie. This of course is unacceptable to us because that was not applied in 2003 or 2012 where we had to give a bigger percentage than other groups which has landed us way behind our peers. Getting the message to Lombardo in a way that he can relate to with a Fleet dominated ATD could be a challenge.  Other issues such as regional pay he fully comprehends, like most of the general public the fact that a worker in Tulsa gets paid exactly the same as a worker in NY and LAX seems strange. This is pretty much the only industry where that's the case, which was fine when we earned wages that were good, but not anymore. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

From the feedback I'm getting from Peterson he is probably more in tune with our needs than Little, Videtich etc. Remember that this is a guy who doesn't kiss managements ass like the Little TeAAm. He participated and led strikes against his employer in PHL. Not to say we don't have our differences but I'd rather have Lombardo than Little. He is a staunch Industrial trade Unionist and no doubt the political arena and the objective to oust Little is what led him to structure his team as he did(It was pretty much a given that the Line and AFW was not going to support Little- putting out where you stand has a price-and Tulsa has been known to jump to whatever side they think is going to win however Fleet was the question mark , plus Alex Rodriguez no doubt had a say so Maintenance was pretty much left out, the excuse was the lawsuit, Lombardo told Peterson drop the lawsuit and name what position you want)
 
I'd asked Little to replace Videtich with Lombardo when I saw how Videtich was doing everything he could to stall talks and give the company their zero cost contract. Of course that never happened. 
 
So while there are differences the fact is that this team thats in place will likely never say to us "You need to lower your expectations", or "Lets put this contract behind us and do whats best for American Airlines", or "you can't expect to be paid like SWA, Fed Ex or UPS" or "Fuel just went up 2 cents this morning, thats gonna cost AA x million more for the year". The hardest part I think will be overcoming the hard core industrial union mentality that prevails in Public Transportation but has never really applied in the airline industry. The concept of having workers in one contract in one Union divided up between several Locals is something that they didn't deal with, and everyone got the same increases. Our structure at present has no rhyme or reason due to Title II being all over the place. Our structure was built around the internal politics of the Union and not whats best for the members. They already tried to apply an Industrial Union approach and that resulted in three craft specific Locals filing to leave the TWU. Then when they look at SWA they see what amounts to two craft Locals within an Industrial Union, where each is totally separate. Separate buildings, separate negotiations, separate contracts, but it works.  Keep in mind that these guys never gave pay cuts and still have medical at minimal costs, good pensions and retiree medical. Unlicensed mechanics at the MTA earn more than Licensed mechanics at AA, with much, much better benefits-we have had several mechanics quit AA and go start over at the MTA. With Fleet Service in control of the ATD, and reletively well positioned among their peers those from fleet will likely push for an across the board approach where everyone gets an equal slice of the pie. This of course is unacceptable to us because that was not applied in 2003 or 2012 where we had to give a bigger percentage than other groups which has landed us way behind our peers. Getting the message to Lombardo in a way that he can relate to with a Fleet dominated ATD could be a challenge.  Other issues such as regional pay he fully comprehends, like most of the general public the fact that a worker in Tulsa gets paid exactly the same as a worker in NY and LAX seems strange. This is pretty much the only industry where that's the case, which was fine when we earned wages that were good, but not anymore. 

From what I can gather from conversations here in Tulsa, there should be no problem with GEO pay.  Believe it or not a lot of guys understand how hard it is to make ends meet in NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Denver and places like that.  I did hear that a formula was agreed upon at one time and when it was applied, DFW did not qualify for GEO pay so the whole idea was trashed.  Somehow Tulsa gets blamed for no GEO pay though.  As far as Fleet with all the international positions, this is further proof to me that AMTs are not respected and not represented in the TWU International.  I agree that Fleet will look to divide up the pie as usual that always results in Fleet earning more than their peers while we earn less.  I don't understand Lombardo not appointing any AMTs.  The last I saw Peterson was not the only AMT at American.  Lombardo shot us all in the head because he had a problem with Peterson.  The only international VP I have had any conversation with is Sean Doyle and I can tell you he is a snake in the grass.  He will not answer questions and when he does say something it is the usual double talk where he will not commit to anything.  When I asked him if the international was ever going to tell Fleet and Stores that there would be nothing for them until AMTs got back things they never lost he told me they would not give away their negotiating strategy.  I have that in print too.  I honestly would feel very comfortable if Lombardo had appointed Bob Owens as an international VP, but he didn't.  It is easy to see that you would have been the obvious choice due to your undying support for AMTs and your ability to analyze company proposals and put them into dollars and cents where we can all understand them.  You are much more qualified than I to argue any of this stuff as you have been on the inside and seen what happens. But all I can say is that I am not always right, but I always have an opinion. haha.  

 

[Bob Owens]

From what I can gather from conversations here in Tulsa, there should be no problem with GEO pay.  Believe it or not a lot of guys understand how hard it is to make ends meet in NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Denver and places like that.  I did hear that a formula was agreed upon at one time and when it was applied, DFW did not qualify for GEO pay so the whole idea was trashed.  Somehow Tulsa gets blamed for no GEO pay though.  As far as Fleet with all the international positions, this is further proof to me that AMTs are not respected and not represented in the TWU International.  I agree that Fleet will look to divide up the pie as usual that always results in Fleet earning more than their peers while we earn less.  I don't understand Lombardo not appointing any AMTs.  The last I saw Peterson was not the only AMT at American.  Lombardo shot us all in the head because he had a problem with Peterson.  The only international VP I have had any conversation with is Sean Doyle and I can tell you he is a snake in the grass.  He will not answer questions and when he does say something it is the usual double talk where he will not commit to anything.  When I asked him if the international was ever going to tell Fleet and Stores that there would be nothing for them until AMTs got back things they never lost he told me they would not give away their negotiating strategy.  I have that in print too.  I honestly would feel very comfortable if Lombardo had appointed Bob Owens as an international VP, but he didn't.  It is easy to see that you would have been the obvious choice due to your undying support for AMTs and your ability to analyze company proposals and put them into dollars and cents where we can all understand them.  You are much more qualified than I to argue any of this stuff as you have been on the inside and seen what happens. But all I can say is that I am not always right, but I always have an opinion. haha.  

Lombardo did give Dale an International title. I too was very disappointed at how we were treated at the Convention. 591 and 567 were pretty much persona non grata. It was unfortunate, a lot of miscommunication. I try to remain hopeful but I admit its a struggle. Until we address Title II, even if we are able to stop this Association, we remain utterly broken in a completely flawed structure (the Association would make things even worse) . 
 
GEO was shot down after Dons Clique met on the 13th floor of the Hotel in Kansas City after the "White Spaces" charade. The President from ORD (Gilboy) led the assault when as part of a revised and drastically reduced table position to "fill the white spaces with 3rd part work" he said that GEO has to go. This was followed by a Motion from Miami-(Woodward and Bernal ) to remove it from the Proposal. Woodawrd made the comment that the NY guys shoulnt get more than the MIA guys. IIRC Luis didn't vote but he was no doubt part of the scheme. DFWs President had flipped by then and also went along with shooting it down. The only reason why Luis didn't vote was because his vote wasn't needed and he had told JFK when he went there to try and prevent me from getting elected that he would support it. He didn't. Abstaining is not supporting. If he had kept his word it could have remained in there. 
 
Would not have been able to accept an International spot even if it had been offered, way too much on my plate with this Treasurers stuff. Thanks for the kind words though. I have a higher opinion of Sean but we don't agree on everything. I think that he, like myself, is a little overwhelmed. 

 

[swamt]

 
 
You're out of order brother.

Where have I heard that before?  Oh yea, at my regular monthly teamster union meetings at local 19 in Grapevine...
 

Sorry.  Not Fleet.
 
Mechanic.  35+.  PIT.
 
And I still do not understand at which company, and which bus drivers the TWU represent.  And how the AA Fleet people are tied in with them?
 
Thanks for the reply, though.

RT,  I see you got it, but I was only going to give another example.  The teamsters are a truckers union.  The TWU is a bus drivers union.  The IAM is any other group other than mechanics (only one airline left with them)  And AMFA is an Airline Mechanics union.  AMFA's main focus is mechanics, teamsters main focus is truckers, TWU's focus is bus drivers, IAM's focus is mostly all fleet and too many other groups thru-out the airlines as they gave up on representing the aircraft mechanics.  Why wouldn't anyone want a very aircraft mechanic oriented and focused union for representation?  The Pilots do it @ almost every single carrier.  F/A's also do it.  They all went to unions that focus on their group as the main factor, why shouldn't we mechanics do the same.  It is very nice being the main focus of the union now here at SWA.  Under the teamsters the cleaners would vote on issues and contracts with us, no longer, only mechanics vote on mechanics issues and contracts period...

 

[Rogallo]

Why wouldn't anyone want a very aircraft mechanic oriented and focused union for representation?  The Pilots do it @ almost every single carrier.  
F/A's also do it.  They all went to unions that focus on their group as the main factor, why shouldn't we mechanics do the same.

So why do your F/A's stay TWU? 
 
I wonder how the card dealers in Vegas do?
 
I think it's only AMT's that the TWU hate! 

 

[swamt]

So why do your F/A's stay TWU? 
 
I wonder how the card dealers in Vegas do?
 
I think it's only AMT's that the TWU hate! 

Not sure but we will all see what happens this time around.  The Pilots have alienated the F/A's union the TWU within the LC at SWA.  They got sick and tired of the TWU's constant childish games they were playing by keeping AMFA out of the LC.  The Pilots were loud and proud telling the TWU that they were alot closer to the mechanics group than they were with the F/A's group and the Pilots pulled the AMFA mechanics into the Labor Collation Summit.  Since then the TWU group refuses to attend the LCS while AMFA is attending.  So yes TWU does in fact hate the mechanics and AMFA at SWA. They even tried to get a card drive going, but, it never even got a slight boost from any mechanics.  All these childish games that the TWU are playing are in fact going to bite them in the a$$ in the long run.  Not sure how much longer the TWU will be around for our F/A's.  Our Pilots did it, then the mechanics did it and I foresee our F/A's will finally get their very own group F/A union in instead of the bus drivers union.  
 
PS...  The company knows all about this happening with the F/A's and will try to take advantage of the situation.  And remember this, all this was the union only (TWU) trying to keep AMFA out, NOT, the employees.  All employees wanted each and every group into the LCS.  It all started with the AMFA card drives at other airlines and of course in the very beginning the teamsters were also completely against any kind of AMFA attendance, but I don't hear much from their side of the fence any more.  Why not since this is to help the betterment of the employees, and not a union thing, although it is in fact thru all the unions at SWA.  As an individual, I say the TWU is welcome to come back into the LCS, but, from what I am hearing they (TWU) will have absolutely nothing to do with it as long as AMFA is a part of it.  I am sorry for the F/A employees, as this entire childish games are being played by the TWU and really passing on an opportunity to get better informed and in fact bringing all of our employees together and on the same page, so sad indeed...

 

[Rogallo]

Good info, Thanks.