iam twu alliance vote

[700UW]

The NMB cant rule and tell you something that hasnt even been filed with them yet.
 
So you can post all your e-mails you want, the association hasnt filed the paperwork with the NMB.
 
So if you think your so smart and know it all, why didnt you win the MegaMillions?
 
So the NMB doesnt know what is going to go on, and I will standby what they association has put out in writing than from an information officer who doesnt even have the alliance paperwork.
 
Happy now that I replied?
 
And what joshie posted doesnt say the NMB wont conduct the vote, now does it?

 

[mike33]

The NMB cant rule and tell you something that hasnt even been filed with them yet.
 
So you can post all your e-mails you want, the association hasnt filed the paperwork with the NMB.
 
So if you think your so smart and know it all, why didnt you win the MegaMillions?
 
So the NMB doesnt know what is going to go on, and I will standby what they association has put out in writing than from an information officer who doesnt even have the alliance paperwork.
 
Happy now that I replied?
 
And what joshie posted doesnt say the NMB wont conduct the vote, now does it?

Their agenda blinds their thought process. Swamt wants what he wants and Josh?. I think he is just a tarnished lover. IDK

 

[mike33]

Looks like Mikey didn't get the results he wanted.  LOL...

I got a phone call 2 days later only because of Thankgiving. I got the answer i was looking for. You have just not 2 + 2 together to make 4 is all. Figure it out for yourself. As far as the membership?....Not to worry. 

 

[1AA]

OK so the Flight attendants are going to petition the NMB for single representation
.
http://www.afausairways.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=371467
 
4. If management agrees to the new bargaining process and we ratify the Agreement on Bargaining and Representation, then when would we become APFA members?

As part of the agreement, AFA and APFA agree to jointly file a Single Carrier Petition with the NMB within six months of the merger close date of December 9, 2013. After we file this petition, the NMB will conduct an investigation which typically takes 2-3 months to conclude. This means APFA would likely be certified as the representative of all Flight Attendants at the New American sometime in summer or early fall of 2014.
 
So does this filing approve the request or will they have to vote their choice of union representation?
 
Why can't the TWU and IAM do the same?
 
The May 14th letter states:
 
This week the two international unions have signed joint agreements to cover the Mechanic & Related, Fleet Service, and Stores employee work groups at the soon to be merged airline. The new labor partnership, to be known as the TWU/IAM Employee Association, will ask the federal National Mediation Board (NMB) to hold elections among the combined employees for each classification after the close of the American-US Airways merger.  The election will formalize the joint-council agreement reached this week.
 
So will there be a filing to the NMB?
What will the ballot have for choices?
The Election will formalize what?
If we vote NO Alliance then what?
I am confused... :huh:

 

[swamt]

It sounds like the F/A's are agreeing to whom is taking over. This is what the IAM and TWU should be doing. But instead they are try to guarantee their presence in the future by doing this alliance crap without any input what-so-ever from the membership.
I would like to make something very clear here, I hope the NMB does in fact run the election with the alliance. I think you guys will have more options this way. But with the most recent emails I have received as well as others, I really don't see the NMB conducting this election. If this is the case you guys will have fewer options, and more than likely not very good ones.

I have one more; When will this election take place? I have read this, "The new labor partnership, to be known as the TWU/IAM Employee Association, will ask the federal National Mediation Board (NMB) to hold elections among the combined employees for each classification after the close of the American-US Airways merger.", Can someone please define "after the close of the American-US Airways merger"?

And also note that it states that the "new labor partnership" will "ask", I repeat, will "ASK" the NMB to hold the election. This does not mean the NMB will hold or conduct the elections. From what I have been told by the NMB, they will not be conducting, holding or running the election for this alliance as they also have repeatedly stated it is "out of their jurisdiction" on the combination or merger of 2 unions. I just hope you guys get another chance to remove the TWU and the IAM all in one vote. Good luck to you guys...

 

[Bob Owens]

 
So does this filing approve the request or will they have to vote their choice of union representation?
 
Why can't the TWU and IAM do the same?
 

They can,, but apparently only if both agree. I can fully understand the IAM agreeing to this, since their group is much smaller, if they couldnt get enough cards from AA workers to get to the 50% plus 1 they would lose members and dues, their track record at USAIR isnt very convincing, the question is why did Little agree?

I believe this was Littles last gift to AA management and final betrayal of the membership. A structural division of the membership betweeen two equally weak unions that would ensure that management gets whatever they want for many years to come.

If there was no agreement then the only possible chance the IAM would have as far as being the "winning" union would be to take a much more agressive position in negotiations and hope that by getting a deal at US that was far superior to what the TWU had in place that TWU members would fill out cards. But what happened? The IAM signed the deal, then sat on the sidelines for months, giving US labor peace when they certainly did not deserve it. Their table position, what they are asking for, isnt even industry leading, its below what UAL and DAL get, weak, very weak. So now we would have the biggest airline in the country where mechanics are the worst paid in the industry, by far, being split between two unions with a track record of substandard contracts, in a structure that will no doubt continue to deliver substandard contracts for the NEW AA.

Without the Alliance the IAM would have had no choice but to take a very agressive position in negotiations, they certainly would have nothing to lose by doing so, who benefits from the IAMs timidity in negotiations? The company. Who benefits from a weak Union structure? The company. Who benefits from a structurally divided membership ? The company. Who loses? WE DO.

Its doubtful that the Joint agreement will be better than the best parts of both contracts which would still be a substandard contract for mechanics, and even if we got that how many years beyond 2018 would the company be demanding? Built in excuses as we sit well into the next decade at the bottom of the industry. I can hear it already "Be patient, this will be our first section six negotiations since the merger", where have we heard that before? US went into BK 11 years ago in 2002 and we hear the IAM saying that to their workers going into 2014.

Today I came across a copy of the 2001 agreement. In 2003 our base pay was $30.61, in 2015 it will be $30.62. We still had shift premiums and Longevity back then so without even factoring in all the other lost benefits or inflation our pay in 2015 will still be much less than it was in 2003, how many more years will we be looking up from the bottom if we allow this Alliance, where the Negotiators will be appointed, to negotiate the next contract? Are you prepared to hear the excuse that USAIR workers, who have been out of BK for over 8 years have been hearing, blaming the merger and the deal they cut that locked them out of normal negootiations even longer? The last thing we need is to walk into these negotiations represented by two different unions. We must walk in as one.

The pilots and flight attendants who were never at the bottom of the industry have correctly decided that they will not enter such flawed structures, nor will they battle for the membership, for the sake of the members one bowed out. Clearly their organizations put the members ahead of dues. We must make it clear that these two unions must come up with a better plan, or the members will. The whole point of forming a Union is to take the power of many and make it into one, not two. Certainly not two where all the power is taken away from the members. This alliance they have created will give us less accountability than we had with Jim Littles TWU. Its a managements dream come true. We have made some important advances since the Convention, and Local 591 is becoming more than the sum of the five line Locals, this Alliance would undo that. The base Locals would remain pretty much intact, but the Line would be split and shuffled between the IAM and TWU with all authority, not just negotiations ,once again being with the International and its appointees instead of elected Presidents.

This is something that Jim Little and his appointees put together. We must teell them its unacceptable and they need to come up with something else, we should not agree to this Allaince BS.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

They can,, but apparently only if both agree. I can fully understand the IAM agreeing to this, since their group is much smaller, if they couldnt get enough cards from AA workers to get to the 50% plus 1 they would lose members and dues, their track record at USAIR isnt very convincing, the question is why did Little agree?

I believe this was Littles last gift to AA management and final betrayal of the membership. A structural division of the membership betweeen two equally weak unions that would ensure that management gets whatever they want for many years to come.

If there was no agreement then the only possible chance the IAM would have as far as being the "winning" union would be to take a much more agressive position in negotiations and hope that by getting a deal at US that was far superior to what the TWU had in place that TWU members would fill out cards. But what happened? The IAM signed the deal, then sat on the sidelines for months, giving US labor peace when they certainly did not deserve it. Their table position, what they are asking for, isnt even industry leading, its below what UAL and DAL get, weak, very weak. So now we would have the biggest airline in the country where mechanics are the worst paid in the industry, by far, being split between two unions with a track record of substandard contracts, in a structure that will no doubt continue to deliver substandard contracts for the NEW AA.

Without the Alliance the IAM would have had no choice but to take a very agressive position in negotiations, they certainly would have nothing to lose by doing so, who benefits from the IAMs timidity in negotiations? The company. Who benefits from a weak Union structure? The company. Who benefits from a structurally divided membership ? The company. Who loses? WE DO.

Its doubtful that the Joint agreement will be better than the best parts of both contracts which would still be a substandard contract for mechanics, and even if we got that how many years beyond 2018 would the company be demanding? Built in excuses as we sit well into the next decade at the bottom of the industry. I can hear it already "Be patient, this will be our first section six negotiations since the merger", where have we heard that before? US went into BK 11 years ago in 2002 and we hear the IAM saying that to their workers going into 2014.

Today I came across a copy of the 2001 agreement. In 2003 our base pay was $30.61, in 2015 it will be $30.62. We still had shift premiums and Longevity back then so without even factoring in all the other lost benefits or inflation our pay in 2015 will still be much less than it was in 2003, how many more years will we be looking up from the bottom if we allow this Alliance, where the Negotiators will be appointed, to negotiate the next contract? Are you prepared to hear the excuse that USAIR workers, who have been out of BK for over 8 years have been hearing, blaming the merger and the deal they cut that locked them out of normal negootiations even longer? The last thing we need is to walk into these negotiations represented by two different unions. We must walk in as one.

The pilots and flight attendants who were never at the bottom of the industry have correctly decided that they will not enter such flawed structures, nor will they battle for the membership, for the sake of the members one bowed out. Clearly their organizations put the members ahead of dues. We must make it clear that these two unions must come up with a better plan, or the members will. The whole point of forming a Union is to take the power of many and make it into one, not two. Certainly not two where all the power is taken away from the members. This alliance they have created will give us less accountability than we had with Jim Littles TWU. Its a managements dream come true. We have made some important advances since the Convention, and Local 591 is becoming more than the sum of the five line Locals, this Alliance would undo that. The base Locals would remain pretty much intact, but the Line would be split and shuffled between the IAM and TWU with all authority, not just negotiations ,once again being with the International and its appointees instead of elected Presidents.

This is something that Jim Little and his appointees put together. We must teell them its unacceptable and they need to come up with something else, we should not agree to this Allaince BS.

Bob
 
Over the yrs you have been very critical of the TWU's Intl. well now its time for you and the rest of the Line Local officers to speak out against this in many more places than this Forum. Just because the Local itself has a bit more influence, the TWU is still here.
 
If you are so against this alliance why doesn't the Line Local get with the IAM Line locals/District Lodge leadership and put out a joint statement that we are NOT for this and that we should VOTE this Down, should any vote take place.
 
Put out enough information to both the US and AA mechanics that this TWU/IAM alliance will be even more of a Negative for our class and craft now and in the future. 
 
You also say that you want them to come up with something else, just how much more of the TWU's bs are you willing to deal with? Does the position you hold and the money paid to you make it hard to think that another UNION would be better suited to represent the US/AA mechanics?
 
 Many of your past local members trust you and say that you support them, always doing the best you can for them. Just how much of the continued scamming by TWU union official at the stations are you and the Local 591 officers going to let happen? You have watched the base rule for yrs and now we the line mechanics are on a level field with them as far as numbers. 
 
Now there is a bigger local and many more members across the board to support. The TWU has appointed officers and so does the IAM, the only union that we could switch to and have elected officers is AMFA. As you said "its to take the power of the membership and make it stronger". I changed the ( many to membership ) since that would play into the industrial union way of thinking. 
 
Not sure how many more yrs you have left, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that you helped to better our class and craft by doing all you can to under mind this alliance thus working to better the lives of the mechanics you have sworn to support.
 
 

AMFA at the New AA in 2014​

 

[Dilligas]

<snip>
Today I came across a copy of the 2001 agreement. In 2003 our base pay was $30.61, in 2015 it will be $30.62. We still had shift premiums and Longevity back then so without even factoring in all the other lost benefits or inflation our pay in 2015 will still be much less than it was in 2003, 
 
<snip>

 
What many people fail to consider is the invisible thief... inflation.  Now, inflation hasn't been as drastic as many of us remember from the late 70's and Carter's "misery index".  But... do not ignore this fact, it is a factor that everyone should be aware of.
 
Take Bob's 2001 figure of 30.61 per hour and go to this link:
 
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=30.61&year1=2001&year2=2013
 
"The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year. This data represents changes in prices of all goods and services purchased for consumption by urban households. This index value has been calculated every year since 1913. For the current year, the latest monthly index value is used."
 
This site allows you to compare your buying power between any two years.  Now, to have only the same buying power that 30.61 brought you in 2001, in the year 2013 you would need 40.28 !  You need almost 33% more just to stay even... forget about getting ahead.
 
Now think about how much more your benefits cost, insurance, gas, groceries, housing, etc.
 
Are you sick yet?
 
PS:  Once upon a time my IAM airline contract had built in CPI adjustments built in to protect us (as well as regular raises) . . . long ago and far away.

 

[swamt]

Well said Bob.  Excellent points.  Good to hear someone from within against this total BS alliance.  Vote it down boys, it's just another tool for the company.  Bob the only part I do not agree with you is the part that they must do something else.  No.  It is time for the TWU to be fired.  No company out there would keep any attorney, or group hired that have brought back the results that the TWU has for the last 3 decades plus.  It is time to replace the representation at the new AA.  And yes I also include ridding the IAM out of the airline mechanics craft as well, they are all the same, and no-one can be removed by the membership.  Let the membership have more control Bob and get on the AMFA wagon to a much better representation for the members (not international) and give the control back to the members.   I know you cannot speak that harsh towards the TWU, but you do know it needs to happen, now don't you???

 

[mike33]

Always a question to end your remark. sounds like you are not sure of yourself IMO

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The memberships at both AA & US had better be absolutely clear on what they will be voting on. From the back and forth here and on other boards I'm not sure thats the case.
 
If the Alliance is the only group to file (and there are no intervenors) then the only choices you'll have are ...
 
1) the Alliance
 
2) Other - ie; Write-In
 
3) No Union
 
 
You ARE NOT going to get to pick between the IAM or the TWU as neither is filing on their own.
 
If you are truly wanting change then have your cards collected and be ready to file when a single transportation system is declared.  American/US cannot pull the same stunt they did with the ibt in this situation, so long as you have the cards for a sufficient showing of interest you can get your representative of choice on the ballot.

 

[Bob Owens]

What many people fail to consider is the invisible thief... inflation.  Now, inflation hasn't been as drastic as many of us remember from the late 70's and Carter's "misery index".  But... do not ignore this fact, it is a factor that everyone should be aware of.
 
Take Bob's 2001 figure of 30.61 per hour and go to this link:
 
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=30.61&year1=2001&year2=2013
 
"The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year. This data represents changes in prices of all goods and services purchased for consumption by urban households. This index value has been calculated every year since 1913. For the current year, the latest monthly index value is used."
 
This site allows you to compare your buying power between any two years.  Now, to have only the same buying power that 30.61 brought you in 2001, in the year 2013 you would need 40.28 !  You need almost 33% more just to stay even... forget about getting ahead.
 
Now think about how much more your benefits cost, insurance, gas, groceries, housing, etc.
 
Are you sick yet?
 
PS:  Once upon a time my IAM airline contract had built in CPI adjustments built in to protect us (as well as regular raises) . . . long ago and far away.

Keep in mind that the official CPI understates inflation for most people. A few years back they added a value index where items such as computers would have the cost adjusted. Lets say the cost of a computer is $1000, but the following year they discontinue that computer and have one thats twice as fast with double the memory for $1500, well to you and I the price went up by $500 but to the CPI it may show as a price reduction down to $750 since you are getting twice as much computer. They also fail to consider that having a computer and the internet service to make it useful (also not factored in) have become pretty much essential since they have allowed employers to force employees into direct deposit. Bank Fees and charges are also not included, another hidden tax. The CPI also varies depending on what is placed in the "basket of goods" used to calculate the CPI and the CPI varies depending on what and how much of your income you spend on various items. So for people like us where most of our income is consumed by shelter, property taxes (Northeast) insurance , energy and food a lot of what consumes a lot of our income isn't even factored into the CPI (for me Property Taxes and Insurance have seen dramatic increases, Property tax over 100% and Insurance over 600%, effectively between inflation (including what the CPI does not count) and paycuts my hourly compensation is less than half of what it was in 2003.

So even if we had a COLA based on the CPI we would still be falling behind, just not as bad.

 

[737823]

Keep in mind that the official CPI understates inflation for most people. A few years back they added a value index where items such as computers would have the cost adjusted. Lets say the cost of a computer is $1000, but the following year they discontinue that computer and have one thats twice as fast with double the memory for $1500, well to you and I the price went up by $500 but to the CPI it may show as a price reduction down to $750 since you are getting twice as much computer. They also fail to consider that having a computer and the internet service to make it useful (also not factored in) have become pretty much essential since they have allowed employers to force employees into direct deposit. Bank Fees and charges are also not included, another hidden tax. The CPI also varies depending on what is placed in the "basket of goods" used to calculate the CPI and the CPI varies depending on what and how much of your income you spend on various items. So for people like us where most of our income is consumed by shelter, property taxes (Northeast) insurance , energy and food a lot of what consumes a lot of our income isn't even factored into the CPI (for me Property Taxes and Insurance have seen dramatic increases, Property tax over 100% and Insurance over 600%, effectively between inflation (including what the CPI does not count) and paycuts my hourly compensation is less than half of what it was in 2003.

So even if we had a COLA based on the CPI we would still be falling behind, just not as bad.

Bob, if anything the CPI overestimates changes in the overall price level because it is structured as a Laspeyres Index, a fixed basket of good that does not adjust for the substitution effect that occurs at higher price levels. Sound academic research has long supported this principle. Say in 2003 a cheeseburger cost $2 and pizza was $3, fast forward to 2013 and that same cheeseburger costs $2.75 but the pizza is now $3.50, people substitute their preferences on the quantity of goods demanded at different price levels so your overall welfare has not been reduced by as much as the CPI would suggest. Another flaw with CPI is that the basket is fixed-consumers once purchased cassette tapes but didn't subscribe to smart phone service, point is it doesn't closely align with actual changes in purchasing power. Additionally different regions have experienced different changes in relative price levels especially for things like education, energy, healthcare, housing, etc. So the changes in your real earnings are very different than an overhaul mechanic working in TUL. Has your real purchasing power declined since 2003? Without a doubt but not nearly to the tune CPI modeling suggests.

Josh

 

[swamt]

The memberships at both AA & US had better be absolutely clear on what they will be voting on. From the back and forth here and on other boards I'm not sure thats the case.
 
If the Alliance is the only group to file (and there are no intervenors) then the only choices you'll have are ...
 
1) the Alliance
 
2) Other - ie; Write-In
 
3) No Union
 
 
You ARE NOT going to get to pick between the IAM or the TWU as neither is filing on their own.
 
If you are truly wanting change then have your cards collected and be ready to file when a single transportation system is declared.  American/US cannot pull the same stunt they did with the ibt in this situation, so long as you have the cards for a sufficient showing of interest you can get your representative of choice on the ballot.

If this is fact, then write-in AMFA.    Pretty sure the organizing cmte are getting or have the cards back from the NMB by now...

 

[swamt]

Always a question to end your remark. sounds like you are not sure of yourself IMO

Really mike?   I am very sure.  BTA, it is your opinion...