Iam Fleet Service topic 5/21- merged topic

[necigrad]

I've gotta say, while I disagree, this was a great post.

That said, I'd like to address how I disagree with these two points. To the first, present financial situations do have a bearing on negotiations, but it is not absolute. In the first place, our CBAs are negotiated for a period of several years, years in which the situations of our airline can change. Secondly, the Company or Union (I've never known of a Union to do this, but it's possible) can delay a new contract changing the terms out for years. Both sides know this, they understand this, and they use it to their advantage. While it's entirely correct to say that US is not "well" financially at the moment, there is substantial reason, supported by the Companies material, to believe that things are turning around and that the current economic realities will be changing for the better at US. Because of this you cannot negotiate in the now.

As to your second comment, that rampers 'value' to the Company is based on supply and demand, I agree with it's theoretical correctness. You forget about one MAJOR difference, however. While we are "unskilled" labor in the sense that no substantial education is required, we are not without relevant skills. It would be exceptionally difficult to replace 3500 (or whatever the count is) rampers with contractors. Can it be done? Yes. NW did it with their mechanics, AS did it with their rampers. Can it be done well? Absolutely not. Looking at the mechanics, they have skilled labor already trained via possessing A&P certificates. Sure there are some Company specific details, but by and large the skills are identical and very easily transferable. At AS many of the ramp functions were taken over by CSRs. Ops and cargo are done by CSRs, not fleet. In addition, many of the former AS rampers, being laid off, hired on with the ramp contractor doing the exact same thing. This means that the new rampers only need to know how to toss bags, push planes, and dump lavs. The CSRs, already employees, handle all the computer systems and are already trained. Here at US these conditions do not exist with fleet. ANY new employee would need to attend either a two week class or , for contractors, differences training. Leads would need to do that and THEN the Lead training. Cargo in the three cities that have it would need to be taught to the replacing (presumed) contractors. In theory, you're absolutely right that there is a n abundance of unskilled labor right now looking for a job. How many of those, however, have the knowledge, skills, training, and experience to do it Day One? Very few, thus the supply of QUALIFIED unskilled labor that would be leaded is minimal.

 

[roabilly]

My Dearest Mr. Roability,

I would have seemed to have raised your ire for which I must unfortunately retort. Just general thoughts and observations:

1) Kindly, you need to get over yourself, as you are not an executive, VP, CFO, CEO or even the junior financial analyst peering wistful from the corner office through floor to ceiling windows. Therefore, any connection between your wages and their salaries have little in common beside they both have pictures of dead Presidents upon the notes.

2) While you are inappropriately dismissive of Rent Sharing as an economic concept in your "blood from turnip" rant, it should be noted plenty of economic research analysis have determined it to be supportive as a wage determinant. Within the economic journal article, "WAGES, PROFITS, AND RENT-SHARING" by David G. Blanchflower, Dartmouth College and NBER; Andrew J. Oswald, Centre for Economic Performance, London School of Economics and Peter Sanfey, University of Kent, during the opening review on other scholarly pubications noted the following: "All find evidence for some kind of ability-to-pay effect upon wages. While most of these do not rest upon cross-section regressions, each draws upon data sets from highly unionized economies." It would appear to be a valid comparison as the ability-to-pay and our own "highly unionized" workplace to be compelling. Essentially, little profits = little raises, just ask the West ramp agents working under America West lousy profit margins and even worse pay scale for decades. http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/academic/oswald/wprs.pdf

3) For all the chest thumping, self-flagellattion bravado in the final analysis, this union is negotiating from a position of weakness due to our relative ease of replacement and the "blood from turnip" problem. As my granddaddy use to say, "#### in one hand and pray in the other and see what gets filled first," because that's all you have is a prayer something works in your favor. I just hope our uniforms won't consist of a hairshirt during the contract negotiations.

So Illuminates Jester.

Mr. Jester...

There is another observation that has been culminated from both the economics sector, as well as the anthropological community. This observation is known as “Collective Intelligence”... or the notion that what determines the inventiveness and rate of cultural change of a population is the amount of interaction between individuals.

What you are witnessing (in real time) ... is this very phenomenon... as applied to the Fleet Service Group. Collectively, we will continue to make our decisions based on our COLLECTIVE observations. This is known as “Solidarity” in the Trade Unionist curriculum.

As we continue to face an ever escalating redistribution of wealth, which is evaporating from hard working Americans and condensing onto the Corporations and Foreign Countries, this principal will certainly not abate!

No amount of pseudo justification will validate the argument that this is simply the result of some economic guru’s hypothesis who has proclaimed the status quo as the undeniable truth!

I am relatively certain that neither you... nor I... will able to alter this established principal with our big words and fancy writing. These hard working Fleet Workers are intelligent enough, and have the wherewithal to see through all the “Bull S*** !

So passes the Texas Pete...

ROABILLY

 

[P. REZ]

I've gotta say, while I disagree, this was a great post.

That said, I'd like to address how I disagree with these two points. To the first, present financial situations do have a bearing on negotiations, but it is not absolute. In the first place, our CBAs are negotiated for a period of several years, years in which the situations of our airline can change. Secondly, the Company or Union (I've never known of a Union to do this, but it's possible) can delay a new contract changing the terms out for years. Both sides know this, they understand this, and they use it to their advantage. While it's entirely correct to say that US is not "well" financially at the moment, there is substantial reason, supported by the Companies material, to believe that things are turning around and that the current economic realities will be changing for the better at US. Because of this you cannot negotiate in the now.

As to your second comment, that rampers 'value' to the Company is based on supply and demand, I agree with it's theoretical correctness. You forget about one MAJOR difference, however. While we are "unskilled" labor in the sense that no substantial education is required, we are not without relevant skills. It would be exceptionally difficult to replace 3500 (or whatever the count is) rampers with contractors. Can it be done? Yes. NW did it with their mechanics, AS did it with their rampers. Can it be done well? Absolutely not. Looking at the mechanics, they have skilled labor already trained via possessing A&P certificates. Sure there are some Company specific details, but by and large the skills are identical and very easily transferable. At AS many of the ramp functions were taken over by CSRs. Ops and cargo are done by CSRs, not fleet. In addition, many of the former AS rampers, being laid off, hired on with the ramp contractor doing the exact same thing. This means that the new rampers only need to know how to toss bags, push planes, and dump lavs. The CSRs, already employees, handle all the computer systems and are already trained. Here at US these conditions do not exist with fleet. ANY new employee would need to attend either a two week class or , for contractors, differences training. Leads would need to do that and THEN the Lead training. Cargo in the three cities that have it would need to be taught to the replacing (presumed) contractors. In theory, you're absolutely right that there is a n abundance of unskilled labor right now looking for a job. How many of those, however, have the knowledge, skills, training, and experience to do it Day One? Very few, thus the supply of QUALIFIED unskilled labor that would be leaded is minimal.

Profit projections for US Air

2nd qtr 2010 165 million
3rd qtr 2010 137 million
full year 2010 272 million
full year 2011 349 million

2010 and 2011 total profit projections $621 million

 

[The Janitor]

Mr. Jester...

There is another observation that has been culminated from both the economics sector, as well as the anthropological community. This observation is known as “Collective Intelligence”... or the notion that what determines the inventiveness and rate of cultural change of a population is the amount of interaction between individuals.

What you are witnessing (in real time) ... is this very phenomenon... as applied to the Fleet Service Group. Collectively, we will continue to make our decisions based on our COLLECTIVE observations. This is known as “Solidarity” in the Trade Unionist curriculum.

As we continue to face an ever escalating redistribution of wealth, which is evaporating from hard working Americans and condensing onto the Corporations and Foreign Countries, this principal will certainly not abate!

No amount of pseudo justification will validate the argument that this is simply the result of some economic guru’s hypothesis who has proclaimed the status quo as the undeniable truth!

I am relatively certain that neither you... nor I... will able to alter this established principal with our big words and fancy writing. These hard working Fleet Workers are intelligent enough, and have the wherewithal to see through all the “Bull S*** !

So passes the Texas Pete...

ROABILLY

ROBILLY, your post was excellent. As far as solidarity, let's hope that the vegas transfers to PHX help clean up the leadership there and move things away from under the desk of management.

 

[P. REZ]

ROBILLY, your post was excellent. As far as solidarity, let's hope that the vegas transfers to PHX help clean up the leadership there and move things away from under the desk of management.

Let's hope that others out there don't consider this solidarity. Bashing the GC.????????????

 

[ChockJockey]

As far as solidarity, let's hope that the vegas transfers to PHX help clean up the leadership there and move things away from under the desk of management.

How does this have anything to do with what's being discussed?

Do you know what solidarity means? There's a definition of it included in the post the quoted...

 

[freedom]

Personally I think we have really good leadership out here in PHX ... P rez , Chris , Jason ... all the shop stewards , the safety committee , everyone works really hard and i think does a good job .

 

[The Janitor]

Let's hope that others out there don't consider this solidarity. Bashing the GC.????????????

I have a legit opinion and there isn't anything wrong with hoping to have leadership cleaned up. Sorry, but making one trip with a chevy aveo so 4 voters [out of 1300] can attend an important nomination meeting isn't solidarity. MSY had more of a turnout with 20 members.

Also, yes or no, do you support NH?

 

[libertybell]

I have a legit opinion and there isn't anything wrong with hoping to have leadership cleaned up. Sorry, but making one trip with a chevy aveo so 4 voters [out of 1300] can attend an important nomination meeting isn't solidarity. MSY had more of a turnout with 20 members.

Also, yes or no, do you support NH?

Mr J,

The PHX GC considers the AGC's are doing a good job based upon this update so Watch this and decide for yourself.

 

[blownkneesbob]

hey Janitor , I know how you feel about solidarity and all having spent the majority of my career up in the Northeast and then going south . I
saw a whole different mindset about unions and sticking together. But I have to say that ONCE we got the right people in place . CLT turnedaround
1,000 percent and I am still amazed at how much more people are involved on the local level here and how much more our fellow employees
stick together on issues and I can only figure that it came from getting people in our Grievance Office that actually give a S*it about the MEMBERSHIP
and not themselves , that my friend is the big difference our guys know that they work for US the membership not the other way around . So maybe
it is going to have to take a new regime out there to get the membership behind them . I know we had the same problem in PIT many many moons ago
so for all you PHX guys my suggestion from an aging ( 1 foot out the door) ramper is find some guys that truly want to work for the membership and not for themselves or looking for a so called union job (what a joke) and get behind them 100 percent and support them . I have seen it happen in 2 different
citys in two different decades.

 

[P. REZ]

hey Janitor , I know how you feel about solidarity and all having spent the majority of my career up in the Northeast and then going south . I
saw a whole different mindset about unions and sticking together. But I have to say that ONCE we got the right people in place . CLT turnedaround
1,000 percent and I am still amazed at how much more people are involved on the local level here and how much more our fellow employees
stick together on issues and I can only figure that it came from getting people in our Grievance Office that actually give a S*it about the MEMBERSHIP
and not themselves , that my friend is the big difference our guys know that they work for US the membership not the other way around . So maybe
it is going to have to take a new regime out there to get the membership behind them . I know we had the same problem in PIT many many moons ago
so for all you PHX guys my suggestion from an aging ( 1 foot out the door) ramper is find some guys that truly want to work for the membership and not for themselves or looking for a so called union job (what a joke) and get behind them 100 percent and support them . I have seen it happen in 2 different
citys in two different decades.

Your rant about things you don't know is the joke!!!!! Keep your B.S. to yourself. PHX GC is in for 2 more years, years that will be good for the PHX membership.

 

[blownkneesbob]

Your rant about things you don't know is the joke!!!!! Keep your B.S. to yourself. PHX GC is in for 2 more years, years that will be good for the PHX membership.

with over 34 years of employment with this company and as a union card holder of the teamsters and the IAM . I do think what I have to say has
merit . I saw it first hand with the teamsters and I see it now with the IAM old regime and new regime , People jocking for "union jobs" and most
of the time it starts through the grievance committees I have seen good friends become mortal enemies over this type of stuff. So I would suggest you
stick to what you know and I will stick to what I know from years of experience . I don't know who you are but obviously you haven't been around unions
for very long. What happened in CLT a few years ago was exactly what they needed the same happened in PIT about 10 yrs ago . People become complacent in there job and think they are untouchable which is sad because they are suppose to be there for the membership . SO I will take my
34 yrs of experience and give you a pass this time

 

[P. REZ]

with over 34 years of employment with this company and as a union card holder of the teamsters and the IAM . I do think what I have to say has
merit . I saw it first hand with the teamsters and I see it now with the IAM old regime and new regime , People jocking for "union jobs" and most
of the time it starts through the grievance committees I have seen good friends become mortal enemies over this type of stuff. So I would suggest you
stick to what you know and I will stick to what I know from years of experience . I don't know who you are but obviously you haven't been around unions
for very long. What happened in CLT a few years ago was exactly what they needed the same happened in PIT about 10 yrs ago . People become complacent in there job and think they are untouchable which is sad because they are suppose to be there for the membership . SO I will take my
34 yrs of experience and give you a pass this time

If you don't know who I am then why bash????? My backround includes organizing to get the Union in at America West and holding the position of President of our local which would be the equivalent of AGC. I've proven my Union loyalty time and time again, so it would be appreciated if the negative B.S. would stop.

 

[The Janitor]

Your rant about things you don't know is the joke!!!!! Keep your B.S. to yourself. PHX GC is in for 2 more years, years that will be good for the PHX membership.

Yes or No, do you support NH?

 

[VegasGambler]

Yes or No, do you support NH?

Well?