IAM Fleet Service topic 04Aug-

[Jester]

WN doesnt have Widebody Aircraft, WN doesnt fly 757s nor A321s, WN doesnt interline bags, WN doesnt have a true "hub" operation, WN doesnt have assigned boarding,WN doesnt have express, WN doesnt have other airlines operating flight, WN doesnt belong to an Alliance, WN doesnt fly International, WN doesnt do security checks, shall I carry on?

You cant compare apples to oranges you have to compare apples to apples.

Rip Van GiantsFan,

Have you been sleeping in the bins? Much of what you mentioned has already been discussed at length in prior posts. However, I will admit I found your additional excuses for longer turn times to be laughable... I don't know HOW many times I have sat in an US plane and passengers are comparing their airline alliances, the delays are absurb! And those 50-seat express flights take so damn long for passengers to get off the plane! And Good God! The amount of time required to pick-up an interline bag... I swear that takes half of my shift alone! And next contract, I don't want rampers to be responsible for issuing boarding passes!

Okay, now seriously, for those people who are incapable of understanding sarcasm and humor, the issue is not OTHER departments delays, the issue is if fleet services could handle 30 minutes turns (doubtful) and it explains (in large part) the wage differences between SWA and US.

So comparing cucumbers to pickles, plums to prunes, or grapes to raisins... the B737-3/4s are pretty much the same in terms of ground operations between SWA and US. And frankly, an A319 is MUCH easier than a B737 from a ground operations. About the only advantage of a B737 would be the ability to load last minute bags without using a belt loader. I would probably favor an A320 over a B737-700 in terms of loading due to the taller bins, but they pretty much hold the same number of passengers.

So Reviews Jester.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Its called getting connecting bags, from Express flights to mainline, doesnt happen in a minute.

Couldnt refute the international operation? Security checks? Cleaning and restocking of International flights? Passengers going through customs, having to get their bags inspected and then rechecked, since you dont have Pond flights in PHX, I would think you didnt have any idea of what happens when a flight from Europe or the Islands come, now do you?

WN and US are apples to oranges. Go spend some time in PHL, the largest International operation and see how short they are on Ground Equipment, or Visit D-Con in CLT when there are LGW, CDG, FRA and FCO on the ground plus all the island flights.

Show us how you could turn an international 767 or A330 in 30 minutes, I would think fleet would like to know.

 

[goodfellow]

Its called getting connecting bags, from Express flights to mainline, doesnt happen in a minute.

Couldnt refute the international operation? Security checks? Cleaning and restocking of International flights? Passengers going through customs, having to get their bags inspected and then rechecked, since you dont have Pond flights in PHX, I would think you didnt have any idea of what happens when a flight from Europe or the Islands come, now do you?

WN and US are apples to oranges. Go spend some time in PHL, the largest International operation and see how short they are on Ground Equipment, or Visit D-Con in CLT when there are LGW, CDG, FRA and FCO on the ground plus all the island flights.

Show us how you could turn an international 767 or A330 in 30 minutes, I would think fleet would like to know.

Dont waste your time on Management!!! Now you know why we are where we are! I wont waste time on J---/./off any more! He is now fighting with CJ? I guess I was wrong, they are not the same? I am done as well. Oman was correct in bailing, I am gone also, Bye!

 

[Jester]

Its called getting connecting bags, from Express flights to mainline, doesnt happen in a minute.

So there is some intrinsic difference between running CONX from an Express flight versus a mainline flight? Beside the bin door would be located on the left side and there are fewer bags. You make it seem as if there are some huge differences as to explain extra ground time because of Express flights... it is just a plane and it is smaller than a mainline plane!

Couldnt refute the international operation? Security checks? Cleaning and restocking of International flights? Passengers going through customs, having to get their bags inspected and then rechecked, since you dont have Pond flights in PHX, I would think you didnt have any idea of what happens when a flight from Europe or the Islands come, now do you?

I "couldn't refute" because I addressed this matter in prior posts and as I requested you to review. Now if reading comprehension is a problem, then you will need to address it with a junior college advisor, because I left teaching due to the fact I did not tolerate fools kindly. Quick review... US international flights are probably less than 3% of the total flights, so you are attempting to explain a padded ground time due to this tiny fraction of flights?

WN and US are apples to oranges. Go spend some time in PHL, the largest International operation and see how short they are on Ground Equipment, or Visit D-Con in CLT when there are LGW, CDG, FRA and FCO on the ground plus all the island flights.

Ground equipment and the relatively few numbers of international flights are immaterial to the vast majority of flights which are comparable SWA aircraft types. Recall that the issue is one of the abilities (or inabilities) of the US ramp agents to handle 30 minutes turns comparable to that of SWA with similar (but not always identical) aircraft type.

Show us how you could turn an international 767 or A330 in 30 minutes, I would think fleet would like to know.

Obfuscate, muddle, plead ignorance, live in denial, ignore, play dumb, be obtuse... I dunno.... this issue has been addressed in this forum. Please take the time to review.

So Instructs Jester.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

3% of 3,130 flights is 94 flights per day, some days, (weekends are more) and seasonal for about 34,310 international flights a year, nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Dog Wonder]

3% of 3,130 flights is 94 flights per day, some days, (weekends are more) and seasonal for about 34,310 international flights a year, nothing to sneeze at.

Which wipes out the argument cargo makes USAirways Fleet Service work harder than Southwest. The considerable amount of containerized cargo is much easier to load than bulk-loaded cargo.

 

[ChockJockey]

So there is some intrinsic difference between running CONX from an Express flight versus a mainline flight? Beside the bin door would be located on the left side and there are fewer bags. You make it seem as if there are some huge differences as to explain extra ground time because of Express flights... it is just a plane and it is smaller than a mainline plane!

It can easily take more time for an express aircraft to be unloaded, as I'd indicated in an earlier post describing Mesa's ops in PHX. Once someone can be found to bring the plane in the multitude of carry-on bags have to be taken up the jet bridge to waiting passengers. I've seen 30+ bags/items having to be taken out from the underside bins of the 900's and taken up before anyone can even find a beltloader to bring to aft bin to open it. I often helped the YV agents with these gate checks in the hopes that it would allow them to get me my bags faster. All the while desperately hoping another RJ doesn't try to come into a nearby gate; most of the time it was a YV agent in the bin and me at the bottom separating all the bags, including theirs.

And, amazingly, Mesa, gloriously unemcumbered by the legion evils of organized labor and blessed with smaller planes and working supervisors...aren't turning them in 30 minutes either. :huh: Are we in the Twilight Zone? Is that ol' Rod Serling I see down at the N3 pool?

But surely, if the folks at Mesa are working as hard as the folks at SWA, or slightly less but still harder than the folks at mainline US, surely they're making a comfortable median wage between the two work groups right? Nah, they make crap wage and are just as likely to quit or be fired before they ever hope to see a raise. Bring 'em in and burn 'em out, it's the Ornstein way.

I left teaching due to the fact I did not tolerate fools kindly.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire, amiright?

Quick review... US international flights are probably less than 3% of the total flights, so you are attempting to explain a padded ground time due to this tiny fraction of flights?

These tiny fraction of flights, which likely represent beefier fractions of profit and volume can greatly impact ground times at a hub. Ever work a PM conx shift at the international carousel? Flights coming in have to be offloaded, the bags sent to down to customs where they are claimed by the pax who then take them through customs after which they are re-checked at a counter and sent upwards via belt to the TSA, who takes as much time as they feel necessary to screen the bags before they are sent beltward onto the carousel into the hands of our agents where they are separated by flight and taken out to the gate, usually (and to the chagrin of the gate lead) at around -20 to -10.

That's assuming the international inbounds are on time when customs isn't dealing with all of the volume from BA and any other carriers. It's not unusual for outbounds to be given 5, 10, or 15 minute holds for bags and pax off international arrivals. Shrink turn times to 30 minutes and virtually none of your same-bank international connections will make it.

Recall that the issue is one of the abilities (or inabilities) of the US ramp agents to handle 30 minutes turns comparable to that of SWA with similar (but not always identical) aircraft type.

It's a moot point, because no one besides yourself is requesting or expecting 30 minute turns. I reiterate that it's absurd to criticize an entire work group for being hypothetically incapabale of doing something the operation doesn't facilitate, let alone require.

Obfuscate, muddle, plead ignorance, live in denial, ignore, play dumb, be obtuse...

:cough:

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Which wipes out the argument cargo makes USAirways Fleet Service work harder than Southwest. The considerable amount of containerized cargo is much easier to load than bulk-loaded cargo.

Guess you forgot that someone has to load the pallets and LD2's and 8's and the bulk of the there are more narrowbodies flying International than Widebodies,

US only has 10 767s and 16 A330s, thereby leaving the bulk of the flying done by narrowbodies, unless you can explain how 26 widebodies fly 94 flights in a day?

And the 757 Etops are hand loaded also.

I would like to see someone post a "bank" that WN has in PHX or PHL or LAS, I doubt they are scheduled for 30 minutes ground time.

 

[Dog Wonder]

Guess you forgot that someone has to load the pallets and LD2's and 8's

A K-loader is a machine. Contractors build the positions for Cargo.

 

[roabilly]

My official position is this...

Let the posters of Ventriloquy and Dissociative Identity Disorder astound us with their uncommon knowledge of Airline Operations and verbal prowess. It should be interesting how this argument plays out... is Hollywood ready? I will not commit to not posting just yet...wink... wink...

In the meantime... I’ll ask that all Fleet Service Members begin to prepare for section six negotiations.

Don’t be influenced by superfluous rhetoric, and grandstanding. You know where you were... you know where you are now... and you know were you want to be... it's not complicated!

So readies the 50...

BroBilly

 

[mike33]

My official position is this...

Let the posters of Ventriloquy and Dissociative Identity Disorder astound us with their uncommon knowledge of Airline Operations and verbal prowess. It should be interesting how this argument plays out... is Hollywood ready? I will not commit to not posting just yet...wink... wink...

In the meantime... I’ll ask that all Fleet Service Members begin to prepare for section six negotiations.

Don’t be influenced by superfluous rhetoric, and grandstanding. You know where you were... you know where you are now... and you know were you want to be... it's not complicated!

So readies the 50...

BroBilly

Thanks Bro

We all get tired of Jester. Some more than others. Everyone knows where i work and who i am and my position. Jesters thoughts will set us back 10 yrs or more..

I believe a better catalyst would be an online /sign in forum with validation. As far as im concerned, jester has had some good points but most of the comments are distructive. .

 

[roabilly]

Thanks Bro

We all get tired of Jester. Some more than others. Everyone knows where i work and who i am and my position. Jesters thoughts will set us back 10 yrs or more..

I believe a better catalyst would be an online /sign in forum with validation. As far as im concerned, jester has had some good points but most of the comments are distructive. .

Don’t get tired of this type of rhetoric... learn from it... it will come from the opposite side of the table in negotiations real soon!

Ponchos ‘n liners... it’s gittin’ deep!

Bro

 

[Jester]

I would like to see someone post a "bank" that WN has in PHX or PHL or LAS, I doubt they are scheduled for 30 minutes ground time.

You know, I just don't talk out of my pointed hat... I know the following list is a little short, but you can compare for yourself on www.flightstats.com. Here are a part of yesterday's PHX flight schedule with SWA's noon bank:

In-Bound SMF Flt. 2519 Sch. Arrival 1200, Out-Bound HOU Flt. 2519 Sch. Departure 1230, Gate C17
In-Bound ELP Flt. 1443 Sch. Arrival 1200, Out-Bound SMF Flt. 2476 Sch. Departure 1235, Gate D6
In-Bound ABQ Flt. 2476 Sch. Arrival 1205, Out-Bound ELP Flt. 1481 Sch. Departure 1230, Gate D1
In-Bound OMA Flt. 2158 Sch. Arrival 1210, Out-Bound RNO Flt. 2158 Sch. Departure 1240, Gate C11
In-Bound SAN Flt. 2349 Sch. Arrival 1225, Out-Bound DEN Flt. 2349 Sch. Departure 1300, Gate C2
In-Bound OAK Flt. 2971 Sch. Arrival 1245, Out-Bound PHL Flt. 2971 Sch. Departure 1320, Gate D5
In-Bound ONT Flt. 1861 Sch. Arrival 1305, Out-Bound SLC Flt. 1861 Sch. Departure 1340, Gate C8
In-Bound SLC Flt. 1270 Sch. Arrival 1305, Out-Bound ONT Flt. 1270 Sch. Departure 1335, Gate C19
In-Bound LAX Flt. 2659 Sch. Arrival 1310, Out-Bound BNA Flt. 2659 Sch. Departure 1340, Gate D7
In-Bound SNA Flt. 311 Sch. Arrival 1320, Out-Bound OMA Flt. 311 Sch. Departure 1355, Gate C11
In-Bound IND Flt. 3595 Sch. Arrival 1330, Out-Bound LAS Flt. 3595 Sch. Departure 1400, Gate D3
In-Bound DEN Flt. 1850 Sch. Arrival 1330, Out-Bound MDW Flt. 1317 Sch. Departure 1405, Gate C9
In-Bound MCO Flt. 1780 Sch. Arrival 1345, Out-Bound LAX Flt. 1780 Sch. Departure 1420, Gate C4
In-Bound DTW flt 2740 Sch. Arrival 1345, Out-Bound SNA Flt. 2740 Sch. Departure 1420, Gate D1

So as you can see for yourself, nearly all of SWA ground times are 30-35 minutes and there is even one which has only a SCHEDULED 25 minute ground time! As I said before, their standard ground time would be our quick turns, and during an 8 hour shift, usually between 6-8 flights per 2-man team. There is a reason as to why SWA ramp agents are being paid more... greater productivity.

So Reports Jester.

 

[usfurloughed]

You know, I just don't talk out of my pointed hat... I know the following list is a little short, but you can compare for yourself on www.flightstats.com. Here are a part of yesterday's PHX flight schedule with SWA's noon bank:

In-Bound SMF Flt. 2519 Sch. Arrival 1200, Out-Bound HOU Flt. 2519 Sch. Departure 1230, Gate C17
In-Bound ELP Flt. 1443 Sch. Arrival 1200, Out-Bound SMF Flt. 2476 Sch. Departure 1235, Gate D6
In-Bound ABQ Flt. 2476 Sch. Arrival 1205, Out-Bound ELP Flt. 1481 Sch. Departure 1230, Gate D1
In-Bound OMA Flt. 2158 Sch. Arrival 1210, Out-Bound RNO Flt. 2158 Sch. Departure 1240, Gate C11
In-Bound SAN Flt. 2349 Sch. Arrival 1225, Out-Bound DEN Flt. 2349 Sch. Departure 1300, Gate C2
In-Bound OAK Flt. 2971 Sch. Arrival 1245, Out-Bound PHL Flt. 2971 Sch. Departure 1320, Gate D5
In-Bound ONT Flt. 1861 Sch. Arrival 1305, Out-Bound SLC Flt. 1861 Sch. Departure 1340, Gate C8
In-Bound SLC Flt. 1270 Sch. Arrival 1305, Out-Bound ONT Flt. 1270 Sch. Departure 1335, Gate C19
In-Bound LAX Flt. 2659 Sch. Arrival 1310, Out-Bound BNA Flt. 2659 Sch. Departure 1340, Gate D7
In-Bound SNA Flt. 311 Sch. Arrival 1320, Out-Bound OMA Flt. 311 Sch. Departure 1355, Gate C11
In-Bound IND Flt. 3595 Sch. Arrival 1330, Out-Bound LAS Flt. 3595 Sch. Departure 1400, Gate D3
In-Bound DEN Flt. 1850 Sch. Arrival 1330, Out-Bound MDW Flt. 1317 Sch. Departure 1405, Gate C9
In-Bound MCO Flt. 1780 Sch. Arrival 1345, Out-Bound LAX Flt. 1780 Sch. Departure 1420, Gate C4
In-Bound DTW flt 2740 Sch. Arrival 1345, Out-Bound SNA Flt. 2740 Sch. Departure 1420, Gate D1

So as you can see for yourself, nearly all of SWA ground times are 30-35 minutes and there is even one which has only a SCHEDULED 25 minute ground time! As I said before, their standard ground time would be our quick turns, and during an 8 hour shift, usually between 6-8 flights per 2-man team. There is a reason as to why SWA ramp agents are being paid more... greater productivity.

So Reports Jester.

Yeah......Yeah.....Yeah......


Again..

Yeah...Yeah....Yeah

 

[john john]

You know, I just don't talk out of my pointed hat...
There is a reason as to why SWA ramp agents are being paid more... greater productivity.

Management has the responsibilities to manage and operation its business and directs its work force and the right to establish rules and regulations to maintain efficiency in its place of employment.