IAM Fleet Service topic 04Aug-

[Hair Red the Great]

I have read these posts on here for years but never chimed in. This is the first tread in which I see a majority of US fleet on the same train of thought. Letting management do our jobs is like saying we agree with layoffs. I really enjoy the insight on how to make US a better operation with out management doing our jobs. Keep going let's get back to unity and unionism and end this internal bickering and take the fight to where it belongs versus management not each other or west vs east. Excellent posts by all pro union posters! Thanks for letting me speak. I'm not as well spoken as other posters but I hope the idea of unionism I convey hits home with the US fleet that read this forum. Without fleet unity were just feeding managements over all rplan to conquer and divide US. BTW I'm new and not sure how to put up a picture on my profile if some on could message me where to look I'd appreciate it. Thank u.

 

[roabilly]

I have read these posts on here for years but never chimed in. This is the first tread in which I see a majority of US fleet on the same train of thought. Letting management do our jobs is like saying we agree with layoffs. I really enjoy the insight on how to make US a better operation with out management doing our jobs. Keep going let's get back to unity and unionism and end this internal bickering and take the fight to where it belongs versus management not each other or west vs east. Excellent posts by all pro union posters! Thanks for letting me speak. I'm not as well spoken as other posters but I hope the idea of unionism I convey hits home with the US fleet that read this forum. Without fleet unity were just feeding managements over all rplan to conquer and divide US. BTW I'm new and not sure how to put up a picture on my profile if some on could message me where to look I'd appreciate it. Thank u.

I hear yahh RED...

Your observations are not only correct but... they have been reflected by many in writing and conversation. There are in fact individuals that post in these forums that are here to dissuade unionism, diffuse focus, and disrupt continuity.

That is the Achilles’ heel of having a union forum that is open to the general public. I would like to see a similar thread evolve for Feet Service that would be hosted by the IAM... and would require strict membership verification to participate.

I will guarantee you that a lot of this ludicrous, negative superfluous Bull S*** would be non existant.

I will PM you sometime today with icon info...

 

[john john]

management stooge,
So for the last four quarters both SWA and US have nearly identical Revenues, yet SWA's Earnings Before Interest and Taxes (EBIT) were 40% higher. Was this what you meant when you posted that US "made more money"? Oh, you were just looking at ONE QUARTER to prove your point, and ignore all else? In terms of profit margins SWA had a healthy 4.66% versus US having a respectable 3.23% over the last four quarters.

And your numbers reflect what is wrong with USAiways.
Management has sole jurisdiction to terms of all union agreements to manage and operation its business and directs its work force and has the right to establish rules and regulations to maintain efficiency in its place of employment. Management hires promote demotes. Selects for training and discipline and discharge employees. If you have any time the with company you should know what the unions did to allow the company to be profitable It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

unless your a management stooge,

 

[Jester]

And your numbers reflect what is wrong with USAiways.
Management has sole jurisdiction to terms of all union agreements to manage and operation its business and directs its work force and has the right to establish rules and regulations to maintain efficiency in its place of employment. Management hires promote demotes. Selects for training and discipline and discharge employees. If you have any time the with company you should know what the unions did to allow the company to be profitable It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

It’s not your fault

unless your a management stooge,

Much like an intemperate child lashing about and screaming "Not my fault, Not my fault," but you aren't a child, and I doubt you want management to be your Daddy or Mommy either. Take responsibility for your actions whether they be good, bad or benign.

Interesting to read "The Blame Game" of how management should be responsible for every action of each employee and should the employee fail in their customer service or work attitude, then the employee should be terminated. However, we all overlook the 900 pound gorilla in the room... organized labor... the same organize labor that I read many in this forum openly embrace, but now pretend does not exist in terms of protecting lousy workers. So it is not "your fault" but rather the management who cannot fire substandard employees because the union you support continues to protect them? Rather convoluted logic, if you ask me.

So now "The Blame Game" shifts to management who signs CBAs with an economic gun held to their head, because it provides for protection to employees to prevent against capricious supervisors, while questioning managers inability to have an omnipotent presence with all customer transactions? Yes, it is a shame that we do not live in an ideal world where managers are motivational speakers rallying their associates by providing the tools and enabling for every employee to become self-reliant, independent while providing amazing customer service. So either accept responsibility for yourself instead playing "The Blame Game" or embrace the idea of svengaliseque supervisors monitoring your every action or just accept mediocrity as your modus operandi never to complain as to why US morale smells like the sputum of a camel.

So Options Jester.

 

[john john]

Management
Look it up

 

[Jester]

Management
Look it up

And that absolves you from all work responsibilities? Do you have a guardian? Is there a family member that someone from the board can call on your behalf? I can make a call to Child Protective Services to provide you care, if needed, until you are an adult.

So Offers Jester.

 

[john john]

And that absolves you from all work responsibilities? Do you have a guardian? Is there a family member that someone from the board can call on your behalf? I can make a call to Child Protective Services to provide you care, if needed, until you are an adult.

So Offers Jester.

What the heck are you talking about? Who has the responsibilities to manage and operation its business and directs its work force and right to establish rules and regulations to maintain efficiency in its place of employment.

 

[Kev3188]

I'm going to get a raft of s*** for this, but when all hell is breaking loose, I actually don't mind mind having a manager help. I'm not talking "quick turns," or something like that; I mean REALLY irregular ops.

Also, to be clear: if anyone is on furlough, or downgraded, all bets are off. Same goes for my accepting any overtime, but that's just me.

BTW, Chockjockey's post #26 was pretty much dead on as far as day to day stuff is concerned.

 

[28L_or_10R?]

Managers are like children: They are better seen than heard. Heck, I don't want to see them either!

 

[Jester]

Southwest. Different operation, different contract, different work conditions, different work environment, different load variables, different expectations, different management, different procedure, different staffing etc. etc. ad nauseum...

US/WN/YV; apples/oranges/prunes. It is my opinion, that within our operation in PHX, the only one for which I can comment on, that any manager that's resorting to "helping out" on a specific gate is doing so only because he or she has failed in fulfilling his or her managerial role, for if he'd calculated and provided the proper resources (bodies/data/equipment) to the people doing the job, i.e. us, then he wouldn't have to break a sweat doing work he's contractually forbidden to do...

Whether or not SWA kicks our butts is not solely dependent on the workings of US fleet service. We are getting flights out on time...

SWA can get away with this because their operational/procedural configuration is conducive to it (obviously). But I'd imagine that turning a flight at WN and turning a flight at US are quite different affairs. Why can't we turn a flight in 30 minutes? Because we'd be pushing flights out with only half of their passengers and bags. Having a more robust CONX operation we have to allow time for pax and bags to connect. We move more freight than does WN. More of our flights require security sweeps. We have more high-capacity narrow-bodies than they. We have an international operation. If US wants a 30 minute turn standard, the ramp is the least of their challenges in achieving this. Given management's reluctance to competently staff gate agents, and their commitment to "streamlined boarding", and the number of gate-checked bags we contend with, it's not unreasonable to conclude that management is satisfied with the amount of time they allot for the turns, especially with our on-time performance....

Truly, SWA deserves all the accolades and respect they've received and will continue to for having perfected their very unique operation. SWA is a consistently profitable point-to-point domestic short- and medium-haul carrier. US is a schizophrenic networked international quasi-LCC whose fortunes seem to rise and fall with the fortunes of the greater industry, or at least similarly-structured airlines. Inasmuch as this data may invalidate Janitor's claims they do not correlate in any direct or meaningful way to the issue of ground turn times, at least any more than any of the other great many aspects of airline operations that SWA has mastered...

Point being that US Fleet Service can only be held to the goals and responsibilities as they are set by US management. We're not flipping flights in 30 minutes or less (late flights excluded) for the simple reason that US management does not consider that short of ground time to be suitable for our operation. US Fleet Service has no control over the amount of ground time allotted to flights. Our ground time requirements being as they are tied to the various aspects of the operation of the airline, one would need to re-engineer a whole lot more than ramp procedure to reduce this to 30 minutes; that is to say one may as well overhaul the entire US network and flight schedule and business model. This in turn highlights the greater point that SWA can do what it can by virtue of their being SWA, and US cannot perfectly emulate any given sizable aspect of SWA's operation because US is not SWA.

So proflofflegates ChockJockey.

CJ,

Normally speaking I agree with you on most posts (as we are the same person according to some wags, right?), but you are completely incorrect on so many levels within your post for which I needed to abbreviate.

First, SWA and US are not that much different in the vast majority of the flights. Are their B737's smaller than ours? Are you saying that SWA B737's are smaller than an US A319? Even the larger B737-700's are comparable to the A320's in terms of passenger load. Also consider that since SWA does not charge for the first two bags, which airline do you think would be handling more bags in the bins? This is why SWA flights commonly handle 100+ bags on the up and download... remember those days before US or America West charged for every bag?

Second, don't fool yourself about SWA cargo... they handle just as much if not more than US. Go check out their facilities sometime. I have heard US management make the same claim, then I asked around and realized it was another management excuse as to the lengthy turn times.

Third, you think international flights and sweeps are a major compontent to the ground time? What percentage of the US flights are international? Must be less than 3%. You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's?

Fourth, you rightfully believe that the larger the plane, the more time will be required to turn the plane... fair enough. However, I will ask a same question again in a slighty different way... You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's?

Fifth, you think that SWA's "focus cities" aren't really hubs by another name given they have banks for connecting passengers just like US? Sneak on over to the SWA gates and watch from the boarding area how many CONX bags they are handling.

Sixth, you are correct that in order to turn a plane faster, it will take more than ground operations, but even if other parts of the equation could do it in 30 minutes, do you think US ramp agents as a whole could handle 2 man teams making quick turns handling 6-7 flights a day? I'll start buying life insurance on most of the US ramp agents then.

Seventh, less than 30% of US fleet are A-321 or larger and they usually fly longer routes, thus less landings and turns per day. So disportionally speaking, the smaller narrow bodies certainly have more turns per a day for the simple reason that the segments are usually shorter. My point being that even if one was to include all US planes into the equation, those planes larger than SWA B737s would have a minor impact upon the average ground time. So to ask again.... You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's? (Source of fleet size: http://www.planesregister.com/airline/US%20Airways.htm)

Eighth, you gloss over the issue of ground time when someone on the board groused about being paid less than SWA ramp agents for which I reminded them as to the number of turns, number of bags and ground time, instead you blame management for not having 30 minute turns. My point being that even if US paid its fleet service agents $100/hour, I'll take bets on the first one to gork on the ramp after the 7th flight of a 2-man team during a 115 degree PHX summer day.

Ninth, so when supervisors "failed in fulfilling his or her managerial role" in providing adequate staffing due to irregular ops or quick turns, you think it would be prudent use of financial resources to have agents standing around just in case? That's about the only time I have seen management help-out, and I would rather them give me a hand tossing the bags onto the beltloader instead of demanding as to why we did not get the plane out fast enough during that shortened ground time after the push.

I think you are getting my many points.

So Counts Jester.

 

[ChockJockey]

First, SWA and US are not that much different in the vast majority of the flights. Are their B737's smaller than ours? Are you saying that SWA B737's are smaller than an US A319? Even the larger B737-700's are comparable to the A320's in terms of passenger load. Also consider that since SWA does not charge for the first two bags, which airline do you think would be handling more bags in the bins? This is why SWA flights commonly handle 100+ bags on the up and download... remember those days before US or America West charged for every bag?

I do remember those days, fondly. Now we have a much improved MBR and scads of ancillary revenue.

Second, don't fool yourself about SWA cargo... they handle just as much if not more than US. Go check out their facilities sometime. I have heard US management make the same claim, then I asked around and realized it was another management excuse as to the lengthy turn times.

So what does SWA do when they have 3,000 lbs of mail and freight on an LAX inbound with 100+ bags up and down and only 30 minutes to turn it? Anybody actually seen any numbers on freight carriage for either carrier out of PHX or are we all just relying on our infallible sources of anecdotal knowledge?

Third, you think international flights and sweeps are a major compontent to the ground time? What percentage of the US flights are international? Must be less than 3%. You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's?

I don't recall saying they were "major components", I was only listing them as among the many factors that make US a different airline than WN. And verily, international flights do have padded ground time, and the minimum ground time for an international turn is 60 minutes.

Fourth, you rightfully believe that the larger the plane, the more time will be required to turn the plane... fair enough. However, I will ask a same question again in a slighty different way... You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's?

Do you mean to imply that SWA sets the standard for industry ground turns and everyone else is just "padding"? Again, they have an operation and business model conducive to 30 minute turns. US does not; after you eliminate what you consider to be the excuses for this being so you might want to direct your questions higher until you come across the actual reasons.

Fifth, you think that SWA's "focus cities" aren't really hubs by another name given they have banks for connecting passengers just like US? Sneak on over to the SWA gates and watch from the boarding area how many CONX bags they are handling.

Oh, I never said SWA doesn't connect bags, I just said their CONX operation isn't nearly as robust as ours. Even though neither of us have the numbers at our fingertips, I think it's a safe bet to say that SWA has nothing to the scale of connecting bags and pax that US does every morning for for complexes 3 and 4. Further, let's take all of those turns involved in these complexes and shorten them to 30 minutes: anyone that's spent an appreciable amount of time in the AM's doing ramp and CONX, from the mousiest agent to the most brilliant of managers will tell you it can not be done. Taxiway traffic alone would make it impossible.

Sixth, you are correct that in order to turn a plane faster, it will take more than ground operations, but even if other parts of the equation could do it in 30 minutes, do you think US ramp agents as a whole could handle 2 man teams making quick turns handling 6-7 flights a day? I'll start buying life insurance on most of the US ramp agents then.

Are you up to it? There are two possibilities here: that US rampers are human garbage and SWA rampers sprung from the seed of The Gods, or you've a long-simmering self-hatred for having long ago pitched your tent in the wrong camp.

Depending on those operational changes that would inevitably come from all "other parts of the equation", and the changes of roles and expectations, changes of processes and procedure, I think then it'd only be a matter of training and repetition before the ramp at US could render a 30 minute turn. It's not impossible; there are feats greater and more complicated having been mastered in the annals of material handling. Otherwise it's silly to put down a whole group of people because in their current condition and understanding they're unable to do something they've never been expected or asked to do.

Seventh, less than 30% of US fleet are A-321 or larger and they usually fly longer routes, thus less landings and turns per day. So disportionally speaking, the smaller narrow bodies certainly have more turns per a day for the simple reason that the segments are usually shorter. My point being that even if one was to include all US planes into the equation, those planes larger than SWA B737s would have a minor impact upon the average ground time. So to ask again.... You think that explains the padded ground time for domestic A319's, A320's and B737's? (Source of fleet size: http://www.planesregister.com/airline/US%20Airways.htm)

I cannot explain what you call "padded" ground time for US. I am ashamed to admit that in my position as a lowly bag masher I have not the view or depth of understanding of US to list every factor that adds to or detracts from expected ground time.

Eighth, you gloss over the issue of ground time when someone on the board groused about being paid less than SWA ramp agents for which I reminded them as to the number of turns, number of bags and ground time, instead you blame management for not having 30 minute turns. My point being that even if US paid its fleet service agents $100/hour, I'll take bets on the first one to gork on the ramp after the 7th flight of a 2-man team during a 115 degree PHX summer day.

Glossing? I was simply addressing the very real differences between US and SWA. I'm not "blaming" management for anything. No one needs blamed for such a thing. I said that management determines the ground time allotment for the flights. This is fact. I don't fancy 30 minute turns, and clearly, management doesn't either; in fact, it seems to me that you're the only individual here that does want them, besides anyone from SWA. That is to say, instead of endlessly despairing over the infinite ways that US is unlike WN why don't you drop on over there and apply?

Ninth, so when supervisors "failed in fulfilling his or her managerial role" in providing adequate staffing due to irregular ops or quick turns, you think it would be prudent use of financial resources to have agents standing around just in case? That's about the only time I have seen management help-out, and I would rather them give me a hand tossing the bags onto the beltloader instead of demanding as to why we did not get the plane out fast enough during that shortened ground time after the push.

Ramp staffing is normally flexible enough to where additional agents can be found to help on quick turns; one or two may be peeled away from one of the many management-supplied flat screen TV's if necessary. Otherwise most quick turns these days are only as "quick" as the minimum ground times set forth by management. When a lead, unit lead, and ramp manager are doing their assigned jobs, heavy/quick turns can be (are) identified and if and when necessary agents can be shuffled around or borrowed to accommodate. This isn't an odd-off rare occurrence, it's how the ramps and flights are being handled every day now, especially in the PM's. Given that there are only THREE ramp managers for the ramp proper on any given shift, the "help" they can provide in the overall scheme of the operation is negligible and therefore not worth violating scope.

In my opinion, any lead thankful and desperate enough to have a manager slinging bags on his gate must have necessarily failed at any number of things (as well as the unit lead and manager [who if he's loading bags at -2 is probably crapping his pants]) to have brought upon that condition, and he'd well hope that I'm not on his gate crew, because I'd be raising hell there and after. It's what I do.

I think you are getting my many points.

So Counts Jester.

Cheers B)

 

[ChockJockey]

Eighth, you gloss over the issue of ground time when someone on the board groused about being paid less than SWA ramp agents for which I reminded them as to the number of turns, number of bags and ground time

And I should address this issue of pay lest I be again rightfully accused of overlooking it. I agree with whichever poster it was who said we should be making SWA wages, and I agree on this only on the grounds that I would like to make these wages, assuming they are higher. Having yourself proclaimed an affinity for higher pay would you refuse such an increase on the grounds that you don't deserve it, or on the grounds that your coworkers don't deserve it?

However, to satisfy the contention that SWA rampers are harder working, self-fulfilled Uber-rampers, which they are, I must insist with as much mock ferocity that SWA pay their rampers even more; that is to say, these Olympian models of ground operations should be making top dollar and more so as to let none question that SWA is the pinnacle of domestic airlining. Once this is put in to motion we can then - with full knowledge that they are superior than we - settle into that pay scale they'll be vacating.

Everybody wins.

 

[Jester]

And I should address this issue of pay lest I be again rightfully accused of overlooking it. I agree with whichever poster it was who said we should be making SWA wages, and I agree on this only on the grounds that I would like to make these wages, assuming they are higher. Having yourself proclaimed an affinity for higher pay would you refuse such an increase on the grounds that you don't deserve it, or on the grounds that your coworkers don't deserve it?

However, to satisfy the contention that SWA rampers are harder working, self-fulfilled Uber-rampers, which they are, I must insist with as much mock ferocity that SWA pay their rampers even more; that is to say, these Olympian models of ground operations should be making top dollar and more so as to let none question that SWA is the pinnacle of domestic airlining. Once this is put in to motion we can then - with full knowledge that they are superior than we - settle into that pay scale they'll be vacating.

Everybody wins.

CJ,

Lest I be accused of refusing to accept a pay raise (actually, I did once, but it was another company, but I digress), I willingly would accept more compensation from US Airways for few flights I work on a typical daily basis, but alas... that's not my point of this entire discussion for which you appear to have become lost in the turgidity.

As a reminder, the issue was someone crying about he finds it to be some injustice that US Airways ramp agents are paid less than SWA fleet agents. It is a simple matter of productivity and your mocking referance to SWA rampers as "uber-rampers" suggest you believe them to be equals in terms of working abilities. We can argue if US ramp agents are capable to handle the work load of SWA ramp agents, but based upon the pissing and moaning I hear about doing 30 minute quick-turns or in this forum about being in the bins alone, I have serious doubts. When the battle cries are "Work Safe" and not "Get This Plane Out on Time", I realize the mentalities to be very different. However, if you are not mocking, then you may want to belly-up to the mustard, blue and orange plane becoming part of the "uber rampers" as they are hiring, and yes, SWA does pay more lest I accuse you of being unwilling to accept more pay.

And finally, lest I be accused of unsubstantiated "infallible sources of anecdotal knowledge" of cargo operations, I submit the following, as evidence:

http://www.southwest.com/investor_relations/swaar08.pdf
(Page 14)

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NDA1MXxDaGlsZElEPS0xfFR5cGU9Mw==&t=1
(Page 80)

As you can see, the 2008 revenues from cargo operations were nearly identical having SWA reporting $145 million versus US reporting $144 million. We may quibble about tonnes moved, but I doubt anyone has that information available to be public, and I doubt there to be a significant difference as the dollars are nearly identical.

So what might we conclude... SWA ramp agents move more bags, handle an equal amount of freight, turn the equivalent sized planes faster, turn more planes in an 8 hour shift, have fewer workers working a flight, and finally, those SWA ramp agents are paid more due to greater productivity than their counterparts at US Airways.

So Resolves Jester.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

WN doesnt have Widebody Aircraft, WN doesnt fly 757s nor A321s, WN doesnt interline bags, WN doesnt have a true "hub" operation, WN doesnt have assigned boarding,WN doesnt have express, WN doesnt have other airlines operating flight, WN doesnt belong to an Alliance, WN doesnt fly International, WN doesnt do security checks, shall I carry on?

You cant compare apples to oranges you have to compare apples to apples.

 

[ChockJockey]

that's not my point of this entire discussion for which you appear to have become lost in the turgidity.

When in Rome, etc.

It is a simple matter of productivity and your mocking referance to SWA rampers as "uber-rampers" suggest you believe them to be equals in terms of working abilities.

No, Über-rampers because they are the ideal, fully realized embodiment of what a ramper could be. They have reached perfection and surpassed it. Whereas US rampers are median to sub-par (slovenly, in your estimation) one can deduce that I do not mean to suggest that they are equals in terms of working abilities.

When the battle cries are "Work Safe" and not "Get This Plane Out on Time", I realize the mentalities to be very different.

This argument runs into the unfortunate reality that currently US runs a safe and on-time operation. There's no reason to think these battle cries are mutually exclusive; we've seemingly and for the time being rectified this by crying both at once. A few years ago that may have been a different story, but the operational improvements and realities of this airline seem to run counter-intuitive to what you're hearing in the bin.

However, if you are not mocking, then you may want to belly-up to the mustard, blue and orange plane becoming part of the "uber rampers" as they are hiring, and yes, SWA does pay more lest I accuse you of being unwilling to accept more pay.

No thanks, I've made a decent number of jolly good acquaintences here at US plus the view of the city is much better on this side of T4. Plus I'm tired of '37's.

So what might we conclude... SWA ramp agents move more bags, handle an equal amount of freight, turn the equivalent sized planes faster, turn more planes in an 8 hour shift, have fewer workers working a flight, and finally, those SWA ramp agents are paid more due to greater productivity than their counterparts at US Airways.

I agree completely, which is why I proposed the elegant solution of rampers for both airlines be given pay raises; that way we can say that we're making what SWA rampers were making (next best thing) while they still, deservedly, would continue to make more than we.