Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Graceson]

It's whom. And collusion is assumed to occur when USAPA doesn't submit the Nicolau and the company accepts a different list.

Then the 9th should be included as party to collusion. Their language is more direct than most.

 

[Phoenix]

Things are heating up... so much that DCA319 can't even contain his desperate hope for the Nic anymore. He has practically morphed into Nic

 

[flyer63]

Marty's letters:


http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/AmMe...219LtJames.pdf

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/AmMe...19LtSiegel.pdf

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/AmMe...tSzymanski.pdf

Just as I predicted and the PHX reps will make a scene of themselves at the joint APA ..BPR meeting. They are irrelevant at this point. events have overtaken the NIC. It's over boys

 

[cleardirect]

Actually, Marty is just doing what Marty does (and all the rest of the lawyers in the world), it's called keeping the meter running. Anybody who has EVER been the defendant in a law suit understands how the system works. The plaintiffs attorney, after telling him that he has a really good case (matters not if you actually do), collects his first retainer (plenty more to follow) and files a "complaint", it matters not whether it has ANY basis in fact, alleging the most outrageous accusations and demands. This of course has the effect of both making the lawyers client think that he is really "off to the races" (all on his dime of course) and making the defendant (and your lawyers) scoff at the preposterous nature of the whole matter. In the end the plaintiffs lawyer "convinces" his client that he should "settle" out of court for $XXX (which the lawyer gets a big chunk of) and the defendants lawyer "convinces" you that it would be better (and cheaper) to "settle" the matter and be done with it (admitting no wrongdoing).

Now that everyone understands how this system works, where do you suppose we all are is this "unholy" process? Outside of both sides continuing to write big checks to these "scumbag" lawyers and yes I realize that I am being redundant in my characterization of lawyers.


seajay

You just described one of usapa's first acts as a union. Seham the plaintiffs lawyer tells the client (east pilots) that by just changing your name you can avoid final and binding arbitration and determine seniority all by your self.

Next. File a RICO suit against the west pilots. Call the pilot and offer a settlement deal all on the dime of the west pilots.

Except the west pilots short circuited that and stood up to the t[font="Calibri""]yranny[/font] of the majority and kicked usapa's butt.

usapa convinced by a new lawyer, then tried filing a law suit against the company in NY. The company kicked usapa's butt.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of the legal world or just like filing loser cases.

 

[cleardirect]

I simply am going to refuse to debate this issue because you do not understand the legal process. Harper does, he's collecting the money, that's all. Leonidas is the joke and Harper is laughing his a$$ off all the way o the BANK!

How blinded are you?

You accuse Marty of only collecting a pay check.

What do you think Seham, O'Dwyrer, the pension investigation lawyer and the other lawyer with the crazy hair are doing? Do you think that they are in this for a noble cause or just a pay check?

Tell you what try not paying your bill for a few months and see how long they stick around.

Cleary has already accused Seham of overcharging the bill. Can't wait wait to hear the screams when the Nicolau is used. The accusation will fly then.

 

[cleardirect]

The West never merged with anyone before so of course their list is DOH.

I would think you would understand that "principle".

The principle we are standing on is honoring your obligations.

The principle is a fair and equitable seniority integration. Not what the larger group thinks your are owed and demand through force.

It is the east that coined the phrase DOH is the gold standard. Get your own house in order before you start imposing your will on others. Fix your own problems before you try stealing from others.

 

[cleardirect]

Just as I predicted and the PHX reps will make a scene of themselves at the joint APA ..BPR meeting. They are irrelevant at this point. events have overtaken the NIC. It's over boys

But I thought you guys said the it was over when the ninth ruled.
Then it was over when judge Silver ruled.
Then it was over when the merger was announced.

OK it must really be over now because the APA met the west reps.

Let us know when it is really over and we are living under DOH.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...they damn sure will when the first post-MOU bid comes out in PHX and the scramble for "higher paying" 75 jobs kicks in high gear...

Ah, yes. I had missed that point. Should be fun to watch the 757 go super-senior in PHX, if they ever get a new bid. (This would be from the pilot group that says they wouldn't chase bigger airplanes for the money, and the east pilots had nothing to worry about if the Nic were in use.)

 

[Pi brat]

Okay, if the merger does not happen, and if the company colludes with usapa and we end up with a DOH list then I would estimate the damages to be on average between 35-50 thousand per West pilot per year beginning in Aug 2008 and ending at the conclusion of trial in 2018 and paid after the company posts it's bond with the court while seeking appeal and chapter 11 bankruptcy and the court will pay out the 10% bond to the plaintiffs upon the chapter 7 liquidation.

How is that for a prediction?

You're getting better, with the ifs, but still full of crap. Back to 2008? You forget that one big fork in the road that keeps your guys from being "damaged", the transition agreement requirement for a joint contract before separate ops ends. It's kind of like the 9th. Yeah, they didn't talk about merits because the ripeness was a fork in the road that kept them from getting there.

You are not helping your boys with talk of damages. Some of them might actually listen to you.

 

[PullUp]

I think the west would sue if the Nic were, in fact, implemented.
Think about it...
If the Nic is used at this point, they could sue for damages leading back to the acceptance date.
Not sayin' they'd win, of course.
But it's a good possibility they would try.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You're getting better, with the ifs, but still full of crap. Back to 2008? You forget that one big fork in the road that keeps your guys from being "damaged", the transition agreement requirement for a joint contract before separate ops ends. It's kind of like the 9th. Yeah, they didn't talk about merits because the ripeness was a fork in the road that kept them from getting there.

You are not helping your boys with talk of damages. Some of them might actually listen to you.

I agree with you PI. I don't see how damages could be calculated or triggered so long as there was no violation of the TA. To my way of thinking damages, in financial terms, would occur when west pilots were integrated into an active list then began to suffer financial and career harm by east pilots, with less seniority than their west counterparts, are placed above them on a combined list. Now if if case could be made against USAPA for woeful dereliction of their CBA duties, then damages may be calculable by all pilots, east and west, from the time they took over from ALPA. Probably a hard case to make, but five years of going backwards instead of forward toward a negotiated JCBA seems to be evidence of negligence or incompetence to one degree or another.

 

[Pi brat]

I agree with you PI. I don't see how damages could be calculated or triggered so long as there was no violation of the TA. To my way of thinking damages, in financial terms, would occur when west pilots were integrated into an active list then began to suffer financial and career harm by east pilots, with less seniority than their west counterparts, are placed above them on a combined list. Now if if case could be made against USAPA for woeful dereliction of their CBA duties, then damages may be calculable by all pilots, east and west, from the time they took over from ALPA. Probably a hard case to make, but five years of going backwards instead of forward toward a negotiated JCBA seems to be evidence of negligence or incompetence to one degree or another.

Well, we agree for a change, partially.

As far as the incompetence goes, you have to remember a couple of things. I has been ruled by federal courts that the new union has the right to NEGOTIATE all sections of the contract, and that if they have a legitimate union purpose that they can indeed change it. How much time has been spent negotiating between the company and USAPA on section 22? To my knowledge, less than one. How can you claim incompetence on that when there has been no negotiations?

AOL and Judge Wake got in the way of the process. Yes, USAPA laid the ground work for it, but that unripe lawsuit has prevented any real contract negotiations at all.

I wonder if there is a way for USAPA to sue AOL and it's attorneys for interfering with their RLA rights.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I agree with you PI. I don't see how damages could be calculated or triggered so long as there was no violation of the TA. To my way of thinking damages, in financial terms, would occur when west pilots were integrated into an active list then began to suffer financial and career harm by east pilots, with less seniority than their west counterparts, are placed above them on a combined list. Now if if case could be made against USAPA for woeful dereliction of their CBA duties, then damages may be calculable by all pilots, east and west, from the time they took over from ALPA. Probably a hard case to make, but five years of going backwards instead of forward toward a negotiated JCBA seems to be evidence of negligence or incompetence to one degree or another.

Perish the thought that any, as in zero, responsibility for not making progress towards a JCBA should be shouldered by the executive offices in Tempe.

 

[Res Judicata]

Well, we agree for a change, partially.

As far as the incompetence goes, you have to remember a couple of things. I has been ruled by federal courts that the new union has the right to NEGOTIATE all sections of the contract, and that if they have a legitimate union purpose that they can indeed change it. How much time has been spent negotiating between the company and USAPA on section 22? To my knowledge, less than one. How can you claim incompetence on that when there has been no negotiations?

AOL and Judge Wake got in the way of the process. Yes, USAPA laid the ground work for it, but that unripe lawsuit has prevented any real contract negotiations at all.

I wonder if there is a way for USAPA to sue AOL and it's attorneys for interfering with their RLA rights.

And what if the other parties REFUSE to "negotiate" to the terms demanded by USAPA. What if the company and the APA "negotiate" by telling USCABA to shove their DOH list you know where? What's the plan...another 5 year, billion lost dollar delay? Addinton stopped negotiations or USAPAS insistence to violate the law stopped negotiations? What is the LUP again? USAPA isn't suing anybody. The last place on earth USTUPID wants to go is in front of a judge.HA! Besides your fake scab union is effing doomed we all know it.

USAPA is a dead scab walking.

 

[Beancounter]

Perish the thought that any, as in zero, responsibility for not making progress towards a JCBA should be shouldered by the executive offices in Tempe.

Yes, but what did you think he would do? The east hijacked the union with the sole purpose of trying to discard an arbitrated list. He is not about to give the pilots a costly contract that in turn will make the company liable. The east gave him the perfect reason to keep it on LOA 93. What was he supposed to do, shove a payraise down the east's throat? He's a CEO, not Santa Claus.

Bean