Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

I think they've made it quite obvious: to get rid of USAPA.

Speculative at best!

 

[nevergiveup]

When you say isn't there something that could make it better than the Nicolau. What? Judge Silverasked that question about something in the contract. Would you be willing to accept a b scale? Give the west more than the east? No, a union can't have different benefits for different members. Plus we now have a contract.

So what could the east (minority) now offer the west to back something other than the Nicolau equal or better than the Nicolau?

A fence that would allow you to keep Phoenix all for yourself!

 

[snapthis]

I fully understand how there are younger guys in more senior positions on the LCC arbitrated list than you feel is fair.

I fully understand that due to an evolving industry, this type of evolution is possible.

I fully understand that there are new hires at LCC and the same will likely occur with our "tail end Charlies".

I fully understand that relative "slotting" may place younger pilots with less LOS in positions on the combined list in such a way that they are senior to AA pilots with more LOS.

I fully understand that some people are hung up on age when it has absolutely nothing to do with combining seniority lists.

In 2020, a time frame you chose, AA pilot retirements will accelerate and exceed LCC retirement numbers.. (A likely time any fence will be down, unless it is by named pilot, -which I would like to see-) and the LCC pilots will be enjoying far greater access to widebody, current, AA jobs.

I'm not sure why you're trying to change the color of the sky. I may not think like the other AA pilots you've met, but to try and bring age into this is a slippery, (irrelevant) slope.

You heard the same arguments a jury heard and rejected as you did. They even put Sully and Skiles on the stand to try and influence the jury. That dog and pony show backfired and I was embarrassed for both of them. They walked out of the courtroom sullied after our legal team dismantled their attempts to smear the pilots of America West.

Bottom line, you get it, my friends at AA get it and the rest of the industry gets it.

 

[cleardirect]

A fence that would allow you to keep Phoenix all for yourself!

That is not goi g to happen. Just like there is not going to be a fence that keeps CLT PHL and DCA all to yourself. There have been mergers. Deal with it.

 

[Zone5]

So the MOU trumps the RLA? HA!! There's no status quo because the MOU says so? That's hysterical. See you in court soon. Think about that LUP btw. Can't wait to force feed the BPR the Nic to hand over to the APA via court order.

Good luck with that!


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

The point was however the list is organized in the coming merger, if the NIC is used as the airways list the APA pilots will be slotting in with very senior widebody, and narrowbody captains, most in their late 50's early 60's as well as AWA guys that were hired in 96-2000 etc and are in their early to mid forties. In the NIC list a guy hired in 98 at AWA would be senior to a guy hired in 86 on the east...neither pilot ever furloughed. So that is where my "mid 80's' number came from. not talking about DOH, but talking about reletive slotting. And as i earlier said, we have guys hired in 81 junior to people whose airline didnt even exist at that time per the NIC

Call it reletive seniority, slotting whatever the method, the end result will be older APA guys slotted under much younger AWA guys. The extra widebodies AA has will only protect so many APA guys before they start seeing the late 90's AWA hires mixed in with them.

By 2020, 7 years from now, 1500+ of the 3400 east pilots will be retired, only about 65 or so of the 1600 west pilots will be gone by then.

That was why I questioned your stance. AA like the east is an older pilot group, not as old and the east guys are, but old enough to never make up the difference of being placed under folks hired in the late 90's. Some who have not hit their 40th birthday yet. Your stance seemed to not be in line with every other APA pilot I have talked to. Contrary to westie belief we east pilots do have many friends that are AA pilots.

That west pilot hired in 1998 is a captain. That east pilot hired in 86 is an F/ O. There is only a 5 year average difference between the east and west. So your fears are unfounded.

So what that AWA was started in 1881? That is why we have a SENIORITY integration not a Los integration. I have not seen age as a criteria for SENIORITY integration. Can you quote an arbitrated list where that has happened?

Now for your big lie.

You say that in the next 7 years 50% of the east will retire while only 65 west pilots will retire in the next 7 years. Completely untrue. If you are going to make something up at least try and make it believable.

Relative integration makes sense. If you are 30% on the Nicolau list and end up 28-32% on the combined new American list. How were you harmed or what changed in your SENIORITY? Fences for the wide bodies. Done.

A guy at the bottom of the list should expect to remain at the bottom of the list. Not like the usapa method that a furloughed pilot should be senior to a west captain.

 

[cleardirect]

Just opened the Phl vice chair runoff election email from GH.
What a political scam he must be attempting by having the runoff by Taylor & Dubarry.
Guess he figures he can just bypass the majority will among Phl rank & file.
What a piece of work!
He should have NEVER got in office and I am embarrassed for those who voted for him
Once again " something rotten in denmark "

FA

So in your world because you don't think someone should hold office even though the MAJORITY voted for him he should not have gotten in.

But when guys like MCKee are not i the MAJORITY they should still win because that is what you want to happen.

When you don't get what you want the rules should be changed to make that happen.

Ok got it. It is all about you and what you want.

 

[Zone5]

I think they've made it quite obvious: to get rid of USAPA.

True enough. They also threw out the "TA Baby" with the bath water, voluntarily and by an overwhelming majority.


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

Not an insider so I can only speculate.
Reckon an answer will surface soon.
My bet it will be some loophole that the GH clan is using to maintain their MINORITY based BPR rank / file vote control.

FA

Minority or majority? 6-5 sounds like a majority to me.

BTW Gary Hummel won by a majority of votes did he not?

 

[cleardirect]

Dave,

Wish you were my rep so I could personally call you out on this oh so typical arrogant leadership role you so easily perpetuate.

A reps job should be one of humbleness to share info.

Not insult with " gramps / trifocals / angry FO etc " .
This was released at 3:57pm today Friday. I read this short time ago.
So my experience says it unlikely to get an answer from enuf trusted sources at this hour to ascertain a potential " truth " on the matter.
Therefore I chose to sound the siren on this Webb board to possibly hear from an informed source.
Btw......in no way shape or form would I ever entertain your words to me as anything other than divisive. Recall the aol main goal of destroying my union.
Did just speak with a soon to be rep and he confirmed " politics as usual " w/o further explanation as time did not permit for either of us.

Thx however for posting above. I'll take it with a grain of salt .

FA

The only goal of AOL is to protect the seniority of the west pilots. If stopping usapa from their single goal and only purpose of stealing seniority and imposing DOH on the minority destroys usapa. That was a very weak foundation to build a union.

Well if you just spoke to the new incoming rep it must be true. Because of course he would have no bias in his opinion or the story he told you. Tis would be one of the new reps that is well known to be against Humel and the other officers. Sure I am positive that you got all of the accurate facts.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Our "Father" blathers: " Folks, something smells in the CLT headquarters of USAPA. You just have to look at the MOU that was negotiated by Hummel in secret and handed to the BPR with a 12 hour vote demand included. In a sense, either their signatures or their brains would be on that MOU. The MOU passed by the pilots, but no one thinks this MOU was all we could have gotten or is happy with the document. People voted for it because it was all we were offered and we were told that if we voted it down, we would be excluded from contract negotiations. (Your signature or your brains) once again. "

Gutter trash talk from the "high and mighty." And you give your ...

"I do not live / eat / breathe this union business as you because
1- my wife reminds me constantly I have other duties
2-not gullible enuf for this mushroom to absorb all fed manure
3- not on fpl"

....all the while painting with outright lies those you do not politically agree with as either thieves, cheats , or in the case of 75% of us…low info voters. You remind me of Glynn and Munn, they get a few tidbits of supposed info and connect the dots in some kind of sweeping conspiracy theory.

So riddle me this: The Members have at least twice affirmed the tenets of the CBL, allowing for roll call vote in only 4 very specific instances. The MOU vote was one of them.

WHY DID THE CLT AND PHL REPS NOT ROLL CALL THE VOTE IF THEY WERE SO SURE THEY WERE BEING SET UP, DID NOT KNOW THE FACTS, OR WERE NOT READY TO VOTE?

WHY NOT GO AROUND, GO BACK FOR MORE, CALL PARKER'S BLUFF?

I will save you the time. They were afraid and riddled with fear, fear of change. They had not been paying attention and suddenly were called on to vote (having been briefed and briefed on the matter off and on for 6 months.) And they followed up that embarrassment by also not being honorable men. They made a DEAL with UCC, then one day before the vote closed (and now) act as if they were befuddled stooges set up for the fall. They now want YOUR support and the 75% of pilots that were paying attention.

As to who goes to Dallas (heavens, what a joke, really? Really?) Why not send DiOrio. At least he was man enough to show and vote for Gilles, who managed to turn an oh so important trip to "Captain's Development School" into three days of "Mommy I don't feel well enough to go and vote."

Greeter

 

[Res Judicata]

Speculative at best!

You're kidding right? Expediting the death of your fake scab union is obviously a priority.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Minority or majority? 6-5 sounds like a majority to me.

BTW Gary Hummel won by a majority of votes did he not?

What cracks me up lately about all this talk of " BPR majorities" is any such entity is dependent on 3 votes from Phoenix! Guys are so focused on the past they are not even paying attention to current events. The big "rift" is only starting to open up. Hope we all don't fall in!     Greeter

 

[Keroseneuser]

That west pilot hired in 1998 is a captain. That east pilot hired in 86 is an F/ O. There is only a 5 year average difference between the east and west. So your fears are unfounded.

So what that AWA was started in 1881? That is why we have a SENIORITY integration not a Los integration. I have not seen age as a criteria for SENIORITY integration. Can you quote an arbitrated list where that has happened?

Now for your big lie.

You say that in the next 7 years 50% of the east will retire while only 65 west pilots will retire in the next 7 years. Completely untrue. If you are going to make something up at least try and make it believable.

Relative integration makes sense. If you are 30% on the Nicolau list and end up 28-32% on the combined new American list. How were you harmed or what changed in your SENIORITY? Fences for the wide bodies. Done.

A guy at the bottom of the list should expect to remain at the bottom of the list. Not like the usapa method that a furloughed pilot should be senior to a west captain.

No the 1986 guy is a Captain on airbus. Junior captain at USAirways currently is a 2004 hire on 190, but that is due to pay issues on it.

Now till end of 2020 East retirements = 1745 Yes a bit more than half our list.
Now till end of 2020 west retirements= 422 yes I meant to say no more than 65 a year. So I apologize for that error.

 

[nevergiveup]

That west pilot hired in 1998 is a captain. That east pilot hired in 86 is an F/ O. There is only a 5 year average difference between the east and west. So your fears are unfounded.

So what that AWA was started in 1881? That is why we have a SENIORITY integration not a Los integration. I have not seen age as a criteria for SENIORITY integration. Can you quote an arbitrated list where that has happened?

Now for your big lie.

You say that in the next 7 years 50% of the east will retire while only 65 west pilots will retire in the next 7 years. Completely untrue. If you are going to make something up at least try and make it believable.

Relative integration makes sense. If you are 30% on the Nicolau list and end up 28-32% on the combined new American list. How were you harmed or what changed in your SENIORITY? Fences for the wide bodies. Done.

A guy at the bottom of the list should expect to remain at the bottom of the list. Not like the usapa method that a furloughed pilot should be senior to a west captain.

got anything new? You benefit by relative position. Perhaps it's all about you.