Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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You have quoted an update. Nowhere in that does it say that USAPA's demise was our goal. Should this merger go through, USAPA & its failures will be history. The update simply states An opinion of the path that seems to be taking place, and what USAPA has achieved (or failed to achieve).

Please remember, prior to the merger we attempted to work toward changing the constitution to reflect representation of all LCC pilots.

Refute away. I've been posting our constitution, UOM, and items that I have heard transpired with regard to the PHL elections. On the other hand you directly accused Hummel of skulduggery. You have backed up your claim by a discussion with DiOrio Esq. or "DOH or DEATH" Music. Top drawer, my friend.

CB

Dave,

I do not live / eat / breathe this union business as you because
1- my wife reminds me constantly I have other duties
2-not gullible enuf for this mushroom to absorb all fed manure
3- not on fpl

That said I have reached the opinion that I do not trust GH and I think a president has a lot of influence over much constitution & uom administration . Could I be wrong on GH......of course . Since I am not God, I must rely on his actions to date in office and mgt background to form an opinion.

Do I think he is in the same camp as Rob S ?
Oh Yeah!

Do I think he wants to have a split BPR within Phl that conveniently coincides with his POV 's ?
Oh yeah !

So you post below for our sake ( thx ).

D. Inactive Membership may be granted to pilots who have completed the probationary period and meet the qualifications set forth in Article II, Section 1, upon application and approval. Inactive members shall not be eligible to vote, accept nomination for, run for, and/or occupy any elective or appointive office, including committee assignment.

Then I read an opinion like below that the current admin must despise ( possibly you as well ) and then attempts to diminish by attributing belittling character insults. You have shown above you like this strategy as well :(

" So what the hell is happening in Philly?

As you all know, the election for BPR Reps ended with the election of Paul DiOrio as Chairman, Paul Music as Vice-Chairman and a run off election between majority vote receiver, Buck Daugherty and the next greatest vote receiver, John Dubarry.

So, what has happened? Buck Daugherty has been on medical leave since he had a heart attack and has been using his sick time and vacation. He was told repeatedly by Rob Steble that he was eligible to run and if elected, to serve as the BPR Co-Chairman.

However, since he is in a run off, according to Rob Streble, he is now no longer eligible.

Now for Rob's explanation. I talked to Rob in person yesterday and he told me that each month the company sends USAPA a list with all the pilots and their status. Rob was aware that Buck was not going to be eligible for a run off, but never told him since he said that he thought Rob would win or lose outright. Buck had asked Rob if there was a problem and was told there was no problem. On the very day of the election, Rob said he suddenly saw that Buck was no longer eligible and called Buck to inform him he was no longer eligible to run, and that the run off would now be between John Dubarry and John Taylor.

Now remember this list has over 5000 pilots on it and their status, but Rob says he just happened to see Buck's name on it that day and that he would not be eligible and informed him the day of the election. Wow, wasn't that fortuitous?

In an effort to make sure that the PHL pilots get to vote for the candidates they want to represent them in the all important future negotiations, a compromise was suggested and was found to be legal. If all the candidates would agree to rerun the election with all the candidates excluding Buck Daugherty, than the pilots would get to vote for their representatives. Paul DiOrio agreed, Paul Music agreed, John Taylor agreed. John Dubarry, smelling an opportunity to get elected in a run off with little known John Taylor refused thereby stopping the new election. Let me say that again. Everybody agreed to allow the PHL pilots to vote for their preferred candidates and John Dubarry stopped them.

So, if the runoff election goes as now planned and John DuBarry is elected, we will once again see a 6 to 5 voting block with the DCA, PHX voting as a block and John Dubarry doing as he did the last time he was in office, voting with them for a badly split BPR in favor of the west and Hummel.

Buck Daugherty bears some responsibility for this, but to his credit he did try to find out what his status was and was told he was eligible. In his own words, "I have no one but my union to trust and they lied to me." Amazing how this works in Hummel's favor!

Now we get to today's news. In the past, any time a new BPR member was elected, he was included in any meetings so as to be up to speed when he takes office. He has no vote or voice in those meetings and it is a courtesy by the President in an effort to make sure the BPR has continuity for the pilots business. It has always been done this way and for a very good reason. The BPR needs representatives that know what is going on the moment they take office. This is especially important now with all the fast paced negotiations about to begin

The meeting in Dallas this week between the APA and USAPA is no exception. This meeting is a "getting to know you" meeting and one that will introduce our union members to theirs. These APA members will be the people that our BPR will be dealing with in the future for seniority and contract negotiations. It also provided an important opportunity for our two newest members to also meet them since they will be dealing with them in about a month. The two new PHL BPR members elect were originally invited to the meeting. This afternoon they were informed by Rob Streble that Gary Hummel has decided to exclude them from the meeting.

Anybody see a pattern here? On every opportunity to help the BPR be a part of the negotiations and for the pilots to be represented, Gary Hummel works to stop them.

The politics that are being exhibited from Gary Hummel makes anything in the past, USAPA or ALPA look like a child's play. Folks, something smells in the CLT headquarters of USAPA. You just have to look at the MOU that was negotiated by Hummel in secret and handed to the BPR with a 12 hour vote demand included. In a sense, either their signatures or their brains would be on that MOU. The MOU passed by the pilots, but no one thinks this MOU was all we could have gotten or is happy with the document. People voted for it because it was all we were offered and we were told that if we voted it down, we would be excluded from contract negotiations. (Your signature or your brains) once again.

Now we see an indication of possible election tampering and the exclusion of the new BPR Representatives from an important meeting.

If you aren't indignant, you aren't paying attention. Your vote did not count in the last BPR election. You are being asked to vote for candidates that are now picked for you. John Dubarry has stated in his campaign literature that he believes that our seniority needs to be a compromise with the west and the APA. Nothing like starting negotiations from a position of giving in before you start. This is the choice you are being given.

Stay tuned to what happens next. This is for high stakes. Someone is pulling Hummel's strings and there is a reason he keeps what he is doing secret and to keep anyone that might put up some opposition in the dark. I fear as many do that we are already being sold out, especially in the seniority negotiations. The west was promised something to vote almost 100% for that MOU. What that something is will remain a secret until it's too late."

Bottom line.......I will not easily capitulate my vote/opinion of union business if I believe I am right and hold majority view as well. That is clearly the way I see it in Phl as to the overwhelming majority I speak with. I sure as H will not allow political maneuvering to usurp the Phl majority rank / file w/o putting up a fight. Hence all the words I just typed and calls I will make.

My apology for long read.

FA
 
FA-

Welcome to what the west has dealt with for the past 8 years. Chasing moving targets and constantly changing rules, remember Mark King stated "usapa law trumps federal law." The system board election comes to mind also.

Having said all that I hope you understand the frustration the west has had in dealing with the most transparent union ever devised.

The soon this 'union' disappears the better off we all will be.

PD
 
FA;
A civil response. Please take the time to call Jay, Wes or Andy on the Ballot Certification Comm. They will give you the rest of the story. Call me if you want the rest of the story about the BPR meeting in DFW.


Dave
 
I doesn't supersede an arbitrated list. You can't simply write an MOU and make it disappear. Not that easy. If it was, USAPA would have done it.


It does if the parties to it vote for it to do so, overwhelmingly I might add! In fact it could be argued that the AWA-AAA TA provided for mutually agreed upon changes and the MOU does just that. The MOU was ratified by both East and West and clearly "supersedes" the prior TA.


seajay
 
APA and USAPA all got played by both Parker and Horton. Largest airline in the world with the lowest labor cost of the big boys. Horton commented with a smile about negotiating contracts with employees before the transaction even took place. Parker and Horton have low paid pilots possibly for 6 years. 12-31-2018. Nice!

Hate
You guys first pioneered, then perfected the art of the lowest wage pilot. This should be very comfortable for you.
 
It does if the parties to it vote for it to do so, overwhelmingly I might add! In fact it could be argued that the AWA-AAA TA provided for mutually agreed upon changes and the MOU does just that. The MOU was ratified by both East and West and clearly "supersedes" the prior TA.


seajay
So the MOU trumps the RLA? HA!! There's no status quo because the MOU says so? That's hysterical. See you in court soon. Think about that LUP btw. Can't wait to force feed the BPR the Nic to hand over to the APA via court order.
 
You guys first pioneered, then perfected the art of the lowest wage pilot. This should be very comfortable for you.

Really!? Really!? Did you forget AWA's heritage? Did you forget that your contract was the template for LOA 93? How quickly you forget.
 
The point was however the list is organized in the coming merger, if the NIC is used as the airways list the APA pilots will be slotting in with very senior widebody, and narrowbody captains, most in their late 50's early 60's as well as AWA guys that were hired in 96-2000 etc and are in their early to mid forties. In the NIC list a guy hired in 98 at AWA would be senior to a guy hired in 86 on the east...neither pilot ever furloughed. So that is where my "mid 80's' number came from. not talking about DOH, but talking about reletive slotting. And as i earlier said, we have guys hired in 81 junior to people whose airline didnt even exist at that time per the NIC

Call it reletive seniority, slotting whatever the method, the end result will be older APA guys slotted under much younger AWA guys. The extra widebodies AA has will only protect so many APA guys before they start seeing the late 90's AWA hires mixed in with them.

By 2020, 7 years from now, 1500+ of the 3400 east pilots will be retired, only about 65 or so of the 1600 west pilots will be gone by then.

That was why I questioned your stance. AA like the east is an older pilot group, not as old and the east guys are, but old enough to never make up the difference of being placed under folks hired in the late 90's. Some who have not hit their 40th birthday yet. Your stance seemed to not be in line with every other APA pilot I have talked to. Contrary to westie belief we east pilots do have many friends that are AA pilots.
I fully understand how there are younger guys in more senior positions on the LCC arbitrated list than you feel is fair.

I fully understand that due to an evolving industry, this type of evolution is possible.

I fully understand that there are new hires at LCC and the same will likely occur with our "tail end Charlies".

I fully understand that relative "slotting" may place younger pilots with less LOS in positions on the combined list in such a way that they are senior to AA pilots with more LOS.

I fully understand that some people are hung up on age when it has absolutely nothing to do with combining seniority lists.

In 2020, a time frame you chose, AA pilot retirements will accelerate and exceed LCC retirement numbers.. (A likely time any fence will be down, unless it is by named pilot, -which I would like to see-) and the LCC pilots will be enjoying far greater access to widebody, current, AA jobs.

I'm not sure why you're trying to change the color of the sky. I may not think like the other AA pilots you've met, but to try and bring age into this is a slippery, (irrelevant) slope.
 
FA

I may not always agree with you, but for what it's worth I think you're probably a decent person. You're frustration seems to be clouding your thinking. I have anger issues with USAPA, because they turned their back on me (west pilot) and the CPs office had to step in and help me. It hasn't stoped me though from being current on my dues, voting, and listening to what Hummel has to say. Like the above said, send an e-mail, it helps to communicate and stay informed.

Have a good morning all, time to take the kids to YMCA basketball.

Later,

Bean
 
I quoted you and the 9th's quoted didn't make it, so here it is:

"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."

I don't read that the way you do. I guess that's the problem with reading the written word and not having the person here to ask. I see it as the sum total of all that would happen with any seniority list, such as moving things along, bringing pay raises, protections that are put in place etc. You say nothing but the Nicolau could do that, but have you really looked at it? If the Nicolau cannot be implemented, isn't there something else that could that would be better than the west fears? Really doesn't matter, just wondered if you read something I didn't.

Not sure why you think I would jump on "as free as ALPA was", don't think I ever had.

I can see problems with USAPA putting forth a DOH seniority list that was never negotiated or implemented. Seems to me that the three way idea would be the least risky as far as law suits go, but I have no clue what USAPA will do and who will sue.

When you say isn't there something that could make it better than the Nicolau. What? Judge Silverasked that question about something in the contract. Would you be willing to accept a b scale? Give the west more than the east? No, a union can't have different benefits for different members. Plus we now have a contract.

So what could the east (minority) now offer the west to back something other than the Nicolau equal or better than the Nicolau?
 
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