Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

Here's your break Gramps,. Grab your trifocals and read what you should have read before you began angry-typing (these documents are readily available for anyone that seeks knowledge):


Abe, the rules of engagement are the same for EVERYONE (even angry FO's). Your Ballot Certification Committee has followed all of the rules, and Gary has NOTHING to do with this event. You might actually pick up the phone, call and NICELY ask the Ballot Certification Committee if they would take the time to explain the circumstances to you (vs. the threats that are coming from the Kamp McKleary for Klowns).

Dave,

Wish you were my rep so I could personally call you out on this oh so typical arrogant leadership role you so easily perpetuate.

A reps job should be one of humbleness to share info.

Not insult with " gramps / trifocals / angry FO etc " .
This was released at 3:57pm today Friday. I read this short time ago.
So my experience says it unlikely to get an answer from enuf trusted sources at this hour to ascertain a potential " truth " on the matter.
Therefore I chose to sound the siren on this Webb board to possibly hear from an informed source.
Btw......in no way shape or form would I ever entertain your words to me as anything other than divisive. Recall the aol main goal of destroying my union.
Did just speak with a soon to be rep and he confirmed " politics as usual " w/o further explanation as time did not permit for either of us.

Thx however for posting above. I'll take it with a grain of salt .

FA

 

[eastcoast]

And you guys are all liars.

Talk about pathetic.

So anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, because if we are who we say we are, we would obviously agree with you. Got it.

With that kind of circular logic it's no wonder we are where we are.

I think it's time you step away from the keyboard for a while and regain your composure.

 

[Bill Brasky]

So anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, because if we are who we say we are, we would obviously agree with you. Got it.

With that kind of circular logic it's no wonder we are where we are.

I think it's time you step away from the keyboard for a while and regain your composure.

NO, POSERS ARE LIARS. Like YOU. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not.

Disagreeing with the facts just makes you STUPID.

 

[dca319]

No active list will be re-ordered. The NIC is not and never will be active or used. There is not 1 arbitrator. There will be 3 if it gets to that. USAPA will not submit the ALPA bargaining proposal.

It might not be their choice to make.

 

[dca319]

NO, POSERS ARE LIARS. Like YOU. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not.

Disagreeing with the facts just makes you STUPID.

Paranoia has taken hold of idiot Bill.

 

[cactusboy53]

Dave,

Wish you were my rep so I could personally call you out on this oh so typical arrogant leadership role you so easily perpetuate.

A reps job should be one of humbleness to share info.

Not insult with " gramps / trifocals / angry FO etc " .
This was released at 3:57pm today Friday. I read this short time ago.
So my experience says it unlikely to get an answer from enuf trusted sources at this hour to ascertain a potential " truth " on the matter.
Therefore I chose to sound the siren on this Webb board to possibly hear from an informed source.
Btw......in no way shape or form would I ever entertain your words to me as anything other than divisive. Recall the aol main goal of destroying my union.
Did just speak with a soon to be rep and he confirmed " politics as usual " w/o further explanation as time did not permit for either of us.

Thx however for posting above. I'll take it with a grain of salt .

FA

Abe;
Frankly I expect posts such as your original from the likes of luvthe9, Claxon, apollo, Brasky, etc. I was more than disappointed that it came from you. All you had to do was call Jay on the Ballot Certification committee and he would have been glad to explain the circumstances to the degree that he could. The committee is being assailed by those that wish for a do-over on their terms. The Ballot Certification Committee is merely following the laws that USAPA forged during inception.

Your soon-to-be-elected representative is mistaken and/or has chosen to read into the Constitution & By Laws something that is not there (truly "politics as usual"). That is the reason why I took the time to copy the Constitution & By Laws for you to read. I was simply upset that you appear to be another recent Kamp McKleary joiner.

You are welcome to e-mail me or call me. I speak VERY frequently with many pilots from other bases. My union e-mail and phone are listed on the union website. You can ID yourself or not. It really doesn't matter.

Regarding Leonidas' main goal, you are mistaken. In fact we have sought to change the Constitution & By Laws to truly make this a real union that represents ALL US Airways pilots. This is a statement from our website:

Leonidas, LLC was created in August of 2007 to safeguard the legal rights of the
former America West pilots in the face of the multiple threats before them at that
time. It was founded by two America West First Officers; Eric Ferguson and Jeff
Koontz. Those two pilots were introduced by a Merger Committee member by
the name of Kevin Horner who is now at American. In early 2008, the group
expanded to include Captain Roger Velez, from the Merger Fund Management
Committee....

Our team is unanimous in its belief that our combined pilot group must begin to move forward in a new and positive direction, and we have expended considerable effort to facilitate a new web site and forum aimed at the goal of improving communications between the various subcultures within our group. It is our hope that all of the various divisions within our pilot group (North, South, East and West) be done away with. We believe that it is essential to our very survival, because a “house divided against itself cannot stand.” Furthermore, we have simply grown weary of working for an entity in which we have so little pride these days. It is clear that management would like nothing better than for us to remain in our present state, which is exactly why we must all begin to work together.

USAPA is the union, and we are the pilots of US Airways. It is incumbent upon
us all, both individually and collectively, to make the most of every moment and
opportunity. Our profession and families require us to do so.

Regards,

CB

 

[dca319]

And you guys are all liars.

Talk about pathetic.

Yes, let's talk about pathetic. You're a good start.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I'll play, but I don't get this statement....

You have a hypothetical list? No your DOH pipedream...

The point was however the list is organized in the coming merger, if the NIC is used as the airways list the APA pilots will be slotting in with very senior widebody, and narrowbody captains, most in their late 50's early 60's as well as AWA guys that were hired in 96-2000 etc and are in their early to mid forties. In the NIC list a guy hired in 98 at AWA would be senior to a guy hired in 86 on the east...neither pilot ever furloughed. So that is where my "mid 80's' number came from. not talking about DOH, but talking about reletive slotting. And as i earlier said, we have guys hired in 81 junior to people whose airline didnt even exist at that time per the NIC

Call it reletive seniority, slotting whatever the method, the end result will be older APA guys slotted under much younger AWA guys. The extra widebodies AA has will only protect so many APA guys before they start seeing the late 90's AWA hires mixed in with them.

By 2020, 7 years from now, 1500+ of the 3400 east pilots will be retired, only about 65 or so of the 1600 west pilots will be gone by then.

That was why I questioned your stance. AA like the east is an older pilot group, not as old and the east guys are, but old enough to never make up the difference of being placed under folks hired in the late 90's. Some who have not hit their 40th birthday yet. Your stance seemed to not be in line with every other APA pilot I have talked to. Contrary to westie belief we east pilots do have many friends that are AA pilots.

 

[Keroseneuser]

This is an absolutely false premise, and invalidates your argument. A previous SLI arbitration does not "set several standards." It is a precedent for sure. It will be looked at. But each new arbitration turns on it's own facts and merits . The solution for us and AWA did not fit DL/NW, which will not fit UA/CO nor LCC/AA. The financial status of AA and LCC is far different than ours and AWA at the time. AA, while in bankruptcy, was not near liquidation. They were not in need of outside investors to get exit financing. They had enough cash to finance their own emergence from bankruptcy if needed. This merger is much more of a choice than a necessity for AA and their creditors. Then there is the benefit of the merger to each pilot group. Obviously it will be argued that the lion's share of the financial gain goes to LCC, and specifically to the east. A furloughed AA (TWA) pilot still has a much better career expectation than any of our furloughed pilots had during the merger with AWA. We all like to talk about our attrition. But when you consider the vast attrition coming from the AA side a few years down the road, directly from their widebody captain seats, it makes ours look like a penny stock. The furloughed AA pilots were/are looking at a very fast climb up the ladder. And APA will be looking for some consideration for that. Didn't Nicolau give us 2 out of every 3 upgrades to account for our attrition?

I know it's all too easy to ignore the facts and realities we don't like, in favor of the few things that improve our collective lot in life. I guess it's human nature. But arbitrators are not senile nor are they stupid. And they have notoriously little patience for those who overreach. I suggest all of us temper our ideal wish list with a healthy dose of pragmatism this time around.

For many of the reasons you stated above, I think the most likely scenario we will see are the arbitrators looking at the info and saying "This NIC thing is a never used and never integrated list that is based on data from 8+ years ago. The current lists on both sides does not resemble anything from 2005, several hundred on the 2005 list have been retired for quite a while now." Plus you have the MOU that in black and white says "list" for the AA guys and "lists" for the US guys, as well as "makes all other prior agreements and status quo null and void"

I think they will look at it, then promply toss that in the trash and say, "OK boys we have 3 lists here, lets get to work"

AOL will sue of course, but after 10 or 12 years away from 2005 and the MOU as stated above passing by a land slide by the ex AWA pilots, and considereing that NOT ONCE has the NIC list ever been used, referenced, bid on, or scheduled, by either east or west and ZERO integration of east or west has ever occured to include neither side ever touching the controls of the other sides airframes........I personally don't think you are going to find a court in the country that will touch it. especially after the cases we have already seen.

i think the judges will simply shrug their shoulders and say "ripe for what?" "That was a never completed merger at a non existant airline, done three unions ago." Then probably reference the MOU we all just passed by what was it 76% or so and say. "Well you voted to drop all previous agreements and status quo....why are you bothering me with this?"

Seeing how the court system operates, That is the most likely outcome I see in all this.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Actually the guys I feel real bad for are the furloughed west pilots. Technically speaking every bit of the contracts that allows them to skip the east recall and stay on the seniority list was just wiped clean last week by the passing of the MOU. Without that it could be argued that they bypassed recall and were then dropped from the seniority list. i don't think that will happen and I hope it does not, but I would not want to be in their position right now.

With that MOU as soon as it goes into effect on the transaction date not a single shred of either the east, west, or T/A contract exists anymore.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi brat
Posted Today, 07:47 PM







Ok had to transfer to reply.


The ninth said that it does not have to be the Nicolau but it also has to be a proposal that does not disadvantage the west as we fear. So in simple terms anything usapa proposes has to be equal or better than the Nicolau.

I have also previously addressed, before you go jumping on the as free as ALPA was. You have to go back and read what the district court said. I don't think you will be to happy about what the district court said about usapa being able to just change your name and arbitration goes away.


This is what judge Silver said about the new union inheriting contracts. That would also apply to liability.



To address another question. Judge Silver was speaking about negotiating a collective bargaining agreement. Since we are no longer in section 6 and the contract is essentially done. I ask again WHO is usapa going to negotiate seniority with and still maintain their duty to fairly represent the west at the same time not disadvantaging the west as we fear. Like the judge Silver said at the same time finding an LUP to justify not using an a fair arbitrated list?

So what proposal does usapa feel comfortable with proposing to the APA, the company and the arbitrators that has an LUP, does not disadvantage EVERY west pilots while advancing EVERY east pilot? DOH does that, the Nicolau does not.

I quoted you and the 9th's quoted didn't make it, so here it is:

"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."

I don't read that the way you do. I guess that's the problem with reading the written word and not having the person here to ask. I see it as the sum total of all that would happen with any seniority list, such as moving things along, bringing pay raises, protections that are put in place etc. You say nothing but the Nicolau could do that, but have you really looked at it? If the Nicolau cannot be implemented, isn't there something else that could that would be better than the west fears? Really doesn't matter, just wondered if you read something I didn't.

Not sure why you think I would jump on "as free as ALPA was", don't think I ever had.

I can see problems with USAPA putting forth a DOH seniority list that was never negotiated or implemented. Seems to me that the three way idea would be the least risky as far as law suits go, but I have no clue what USAPA will do and who will sue.

 

[fatherabraham]

Abe;
Frankly I expect posts such as your original from the likes of luvthe9, Claxon, apollo, Brasky, etc. I was more than disappointed that it came from you. All you had to do was call Jay on the Ballot Certification committee and he would have been glad to explain the circumstances to the degree that he could. The committee is being assailed by those that wish for a do-over on their terms. The Ballot Certification Committee is merely following the laws that USAPA forged during inception.

Your soon-to-be-elected representative is mistaken and/or has chosen to read into the Constitution & By Laws something that is not there (truly "politics as usual"). That is the reason why I took the time to copy the Constitution & By Laws for you to read. I was simply upset that you appear to be another recent Kamp McKleary joiner.

You are welcome to e-mail me or call me. I speak VERY frequently with many pilots from other bases. My union e-mail and phone are listed on the union website. You can ID yourself or not. It really doesn't matter.

Regarding Leonidas' main goal, you are mistaken. In fact we have sought to change the Constitution & By Laws to truly make this a real union that represents ALL US Airways pilots. This is a statement from our website:

Leonidas, LLC was created in August of 2007 to safeguard the legal rights of the
former America West pilots in the face of the multiple threats before them at that
time. It was founded by two America West First Officers; Eric Ferguson and Jeff
Koontz. Those two pilots were introduced by a Merger Committee member by
the name of Kevin Horner who is now at American. In early 2008, the group
expanded to include Captain Roger Velez, from the Merger Fund Management
Committee....

Our team is unanimous in its belief that our combined pilot group must begin to move forward in a new and positive direction, and we have expended considerable effort to facilitate a new web site and forum aimed at the goal of improving communications between the various subcultures within our group. It is our hope that all of the various divisions within our pilot group (North, South, East and West) be done away with. We believe that it is essential to our very survival, because a “house divided against itself cannot stand.” Furthermore, we have simply grown weary of working for an entity in which we have so little pride these days. It is clear that management would like nothing better than for us to remain in our present state, which is exactly why we must all begin to work together.

USAPA is the union, and we are the pilots of US Airways. It is incumbent upon
us all, both individually and collectively, to make the most of every moment and
opportunity. Our profession and families require us to do so.

Regards,

CB

Dave,

So sad your " more than disappointed " in me.
Getting emails " on the rest of the story " as I type.
You have a POV like everyone else and not one bit more " authoritarian " in nature than my sources IMO.
Read your post thoroughly and see many items I could refute....but to what avail?
However I will provide below snippet from the aol update posted today below to validate my " main goal " comment above :

" The merger also signals the imminent demise of USAPA. This is a date long-anticipated by West Pilots (and secretly by many East pilots). We are all well aware of USAPA's innumerable failures and bad acts since its inception. Created to disenfranchise one-third of its pilots for the express purpose of subverting binding arbitration, USAPA was actually an oligarchy which wasted five years lowering industry-average pay and embarrassing airline pilots everywhere. The industry will be glad to be rid of USAPA and organized labor will collectively rejoice. We look forward to working with the APA at “The New American Airlines.”

FA

 

[eastcoast]

For many of the reasons you stated above, I think the most likely scenario we will see are the arbitrators looking at the info and saying "This NIC thing is a never used and never integrated list that is based on data from 8+ years ago. The current lists on both sides does not resemble anything from 2005, several hundred on the 2005 list have been retired for quite a while now." Plus you have the MOU that in black and white says "list" for the AA guys and "lists" for the US guys, as well as "makes all other prior agreements and status quo null and void"

I think they will look at it, then promply toss that in the trash and say, "OK boys we have 3 lists here, lets get to work"

AOL will sue of course, but after 10 or 12 years away from 2005 and the MOU as stated above passing by a land slide by the ex AWA pilots, and considereing that NOT ONCE has the NIC list ever been used, referenced, bid on, or scheduled, by either east or west and ZERO integration of east or west has ever occured to include neither side ever touching the controls of the other sides airframes........I personally don't think you are going to find a court in the country that will touch it. especially after the cases we have already seen.

i think the judges will simply shrug their shoulders and say "ripe for what?" "That was a never completed merger at a non existant airline, done three unions ago." Then probably reference the MOU we all just passed by what was it 76% or so and say. "Well you voted to drop all previous agreements and status quo....why are you bothering me with this?"

Seeing how the court system operates, That is the most likely outcome I see in all this.

I don't discount any scenario. And you very well could be right. I just don't hold the same opinion as to the MOST likely outcome.

 

[eastcoast]

NO, POSERS ARE LIARS. Like YOU. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not.

Disagreeing with the facts just makes you STUPID.

"POSER"???? Are you serious? What are you... twelve? Who talks like that?

You are a scared little person who can only attack others when you run out of rational things to say.

So if you are wrong in the end, and your version of the "facts" turn out to be not so accurate, will you come back here and admit that it was YOU that is stupid? Never mind. I already know the answer.

It's really not worth wasting any more time with someone who can't even hold a civilized conversation.

And for the record, I've already made peace with our situation. Our collective bully mentality (of which I am embarrassed to be associated with) that caused our merger committee to be neutered with an all or nothing plan in the first arbitration, and resulted in years of lost wages, benefits, and quality of life, is the very reason we go into this merger in a weak position. Had we given up the unattainable stance, and proffered a more reasonable position, yeah we may have taken a slight hit, but made it up tenfold with a decent contract. Many tens of thousands of wasted dollars. Millions in legal fees. Hell, just a simple W2 argument going into this next arbitration would have given us a huge leg up with the APA. But it's all water under the bridge now. I'm fine with it. You'll excuse me though if I am not willing to be held hostage any longer by people blinded by their own bitterness and anger. This road is coming to an end soon one way or another, and you attacking everyone won't change the outcome one bit.

 

[cactusboy53]

Dave,

So sad your " more than disappointed " in me.
Getting emails " on the rest of the story " as I type.
You have a POV like everyone else and not one bit more " authoritarian " in nature than my sources IMO.
Read your post thoroughly and see many items I could refute....but to what avail?
However I will provide below snippet from the aol update posted today below to validate my " main goal " comment above :

" The merger also signals the imminent demise of USAPA. This is a date long-anticipated by West Pilots (and secretly by many East pilots). We are all well aware of USAPA's innumerable failures and bad acts since its inception. Created to disenfranchise one-third of its pilots for the express purpose of subverting binding arbitration, USAPA was actually an oligarchy which wasted five years lowering industry-average pay and embarrassing airline pilots everywhere. The industry will be glad to be rid of USAPA and organized labor will collectively rejoice. We look forward to working with the APA at “The New American Airlines.”

FA

You have quoted an update. Nowhere in that does it say that USAPA's demise was our goal. Should this merger go through, USAPA & its failures will be history. The update simply states An opinion of the path that seems to be taking place, and what USAPA has achieved (or failed to achieve).

Please remember, prior to the merger we attempted to work toward changing the constitution to reflect representation of all LCC pilots.

Refute away. I've been posting our constitution, UOM, and items that I have heard transpired with regard to the PHL elections. On the other hand you directly accused Hummel of skulduggery. You have backed up your claim by a discussion with DiOrio Esq. or "DOH or DEATH" Music. Top drawer, my friend.

CB