AWA ALPA thread 10/26-11/1

[AWA320]

Yup...they certainly are laughing at "our" expense...and how's that west outpouring of "support" for east pay parity coming? I'm always delighted to see fraternal Brotherhood at it's finest.

Try to get serious for once in your life would you!!! The entire east pilot group would be in a new contract by now with BETTER than parity if you easties would not have been stalling and LYING all along!! Tell the damn truth EastUs, the plan was to recoup all you lost with the former USAir at the expense of the west pilot group. Talk about brotherhood at its finest, how about lying to your brother to eat his meal when yours fell on the floor???

Brotherhood?? That's really rich coming from a group of lying thieves :angry: Now go ahead and claim you didn't know East and further your lies...

 

[flynomore]

Try to get serious for once in your life would you!!! The entire east pilot group would be in a new contract by now with BETTER than parity if you easties would not have been stalling and LYING all along!! Tell the damn truth EastUs, the plan was to recoup all you lost with the former USAir at the expense of the west pilot group. Talk about brotherhood at its finest, how about lying to your brother to eat his meal when yours fell on the floor???

Brotherhood?? That's really rich coming from a group of lying thieves :angry: Now go ahead and claim you didn't know East and further your lies...

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So assuming that your earlier arguments (along with U turn's) are correct and that the East group has had upgrades from retirements of that work force that were not available to rooties, then ALL 77 net new captains would go to your St. Nic order on the list. Never mind the Jungle Jet silly pay that is less than HP FO rates. Next time you're in CLT, look over at those parked 737s. How many of those jobs have already been flushed? If you don't think the JJ is replacing the 737, I've got a DC 9 manual for ya.

How is that stealing again? I am confused. US Air(was) jobs, vacated by US Air seniority list pilots, bid and awarded to US Air seniority list pilots.

Again, what would the JNC offer a mid 1988 hire, slotted into the last AWA class of pilots, who will now see ALL AWA FOs upgrade before he does? Who is stealing what, exactly?

Go figure.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh but wait, it gets even more interesting as the years go on!!!! I saw the data all the way to 2013.

You may have seen the data but you are not being honest with it, or pointing out the number of retirements. Maybe you didn't mean to be dishonest and are just repeating the drivel of your MEC. (I thought they always told the truth. )

All the retirements of the AAA 60 year old FOs are being replaced with AAA FOs that are older on average than the AWA FOs. The AAA FOs will become Captains and then retire before the AWA FOs who will become captains, unless of course if NIC becomes a reality. In which case, the AWA FOs would become Captains while the AAA FOs would remain and retire as FOs.

So even though it would be pleasing to you to accept the AWA MEC deception without critically thinking about it, it ain't the whole story. But then truth isn't always a part of ALPA; "Unity is the most important thing."

 

[AWA320]

You may have seen the data but you are not being honest with it, or pointing out the number of retirements. Maybe you didn't mean to be dishonest and are just repeating the drivel of your MEC. (I thought they always told the truth. )

All the retirements of the AAA 60 year old FOs are being replaced with AAA FOs that are older on average than the AWA FOs. The AAA FOs will become Captains and then retire before the AWA FOs who will become captains, unless of course if NIC becomes a reality. In which case, the AWA FOs would become Captains while the AAA FOs would remain and retire as FOs.

So even though it would be pleasing to you to accept the AWA MEC deception without critically thinking about it, it ain't the whole story. But then truth isn't always a part of ALPA; "Unity is the most important thing."

This had nothing to do with the AWA mec but rather the data from the company on retirement!! I could care less who is older than who as it is not the issue. The issue here is that your MEC claimed some 200 plus vacancies ie attrition in 2008 yet only 77 retire so where and who are the other 130 plus slots Phoenix?? Like I said you planned to upgrade all the east f/o's at the expense of the west. That is stealing, the stealing that many of you had accused us of attempting to do. Fact is fact, you never had the attrition you claimed.

 

[AWA320]

Again, what would the JNC offer a mid 1988 hire, slotted into the last AWA class of pilots, who will now see ALL AWA FOs upgrade before he does? Who is stealing what, exactly?

Go figure.

That is the chnace you took going to arbitration and pushing a bad position!! That same 1988 hire should be glad he/she is back from furlough E 190's one word comes to mind, stealing!!! Plenty of east stealing...

 

[nycbusdriver]

I wonder if the East pilots will share the profit sharing pool from 2007??

It's no longer up to the east pilots. The profit sharing among all the pilots is written into the transition agreement.

"Vast majority" remains to be seen. My friends over there were swearing to me that LOA93 was going to fail by a vast majority also.

I was there. Most everyone I came into contact with knew that it would pass. We were dismayed that the margin was as large as it turned out to be: 57% in favor. We also predicted with uncanny accuracy just exactly what the breakdown would be on a base-by-base tally. We knew PIT and PHL would defeat LOA 93 by a large margin, and we did. We knew the pants-wetters in CLT and DCA would fall all over themselves to "just get any deal" before going into Chapter 11 again. Their margins in favor were impossibly large to overcome. They swallowed the bad advice from the ALPA national experts that we would be much better off with a deal going into bankruptcy than to take our chances with the judge. The flight attendants and mechanics told the company to go pound sand, took their chances with the BK court, and came out of it much better off than the pilots.

 

[Freighterguynow]

It's no longer up to the east pilots. The profit sharing among all the pilots is written into the transition agreement.

Was it written into the transition agreement or just a one time "unity" olive branch from the East Mec for 2006?

No childish elephant butt replies please - I'm just asking as I don't know.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Section VII of the transition agreement:

C. The Plan of Reorganization of US Airways Group will provide for profit sharing for pilots employed by US Airways and America West and then by the Single Carrier as follows.

1. A profit sharing pool, based on the consolidated profits of US Airways Group, to be established at 10% of the pre-tax profit excluding unusual items (as reported, according to GAAP accounting practices) for pre-tax margins ranging from 0.1% to 10%; and at the above, plus 15% of any pre-tax profit excluding unusual items (as reported, according to GAAP accounting practices) in excess of a pre-tax margin of 10%.

2. The portion of the profit sharing pool allocated to pilots of US Airways and America West will be no less than 36%.

3. Profit sharing will be paid to each pilot who was employed by US Airways or America West during the year in which the profit was earned based on a formula for distribution to be determined by the Association.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Try to get serious for once in your life would you!!! The entire east pilot group would be in a new contract by now with BETTER than parity if you easties would not have been stalling and LYING all along!! Tell the damn truth EastUs, the plan was to recoup all you lost with the former USAir at the expense of the west pilot group. Talk about brotherhood at its finest, how about lying to your brother to eat his meal when yours fell on the floor???

Brotherhood?? That's really rich coming from a group of lying thieves :angry: Now go ahead and claim you didn't know East and further your lies...

An amusing bray, even by your standards, good Sir Knight of the "Righteous Position". Methinks that you've lost it, what with Christmas just around the corner and still no St Nic in sight.


"The entire east pilot group would be in a new contract by now with BETTER than parity if you easties would not have been stalling " Words fail me attempting to address the absudrity of that oft touted west fantasy. I'll just note the seemingly obvious, at least to anyone the least bit based in reality: Without some perceived benefit regarding packaging this place for a merger/sale/etc, there's absolutely NO/ZIP/ZERO reason for management to have the least desire for speedy contract enhancements that'll cost them huge money. You've noted that you've no faith in management's statements. WHY wold you choose to blindly believe any such when it suits your notions to obtain some magnificent, instantly given contract?

 

[AWA320]

An amusing bray, even by your standards, good Sir Knight of the "Righteous Position". Methinks that you've lost it, what with Christmas just around the corner and still no St Nic in sight.

I wouldn't count on that my friend if I were you as it seems that the very level headed in the east have grown tired of the bankruptcy contract and are ready for more money!!!

"The entire east pilot group would be in a new contract by now with BETTER than parity if you easties would not have been stalling " Words fail me attempting to address the absudrity of that oft touted west fantasy. I'll just note the seemingly obvious, at least to anyone the least bit based in reality: Without some perceived benefit regarding packaging this place for a merger/sale/etc, there's absolutely NO/ZIP/ZERO reason for management to have the least desire for speedy contract enhancements that'll cost them huge money.

You are correct if you assume that you will again be merged and or sold, all the more reason to have your house in order as any new merger and or sale will be required to follow the arbitrated award and the contract in place! I know, you would rather be merged AGAIN under loa 93 for more years of the same poor contract. Hey don't trust me call your lawyer and find out for yourself.

You've noted that you've no faith in management's statements. WHY wold you choose to blindly believe any such when it suits your notions to obtain some magnificent, instantly given contract?

I have no faith in management WORDS however that with which is provided to share holders carries just a little more weight. You see you can lie to employees to manage expectations but once the share holders are involved and their money on the line the information takes a rather drastic turn...

 

[Freighterguynow]

Section VII of the transition agreement:

C. The Plan of Reorganization of US Airways Group will provide for profit sharing for pilots employed by US Airways and America West and then by the Single Carrier as follows.

1. A profit sharing pool, based on the consolidated profits of US Airways Group, to be established at 10% of the pre-tax profit excluding unusual items (as reported, according to GAAP accounting practices) for pre-tax margins ranging from 0.1% to 10%; and at the above, plus 15% of any pre-tax profit excluding unusual items (as reported, according to GAAP accounting practices) in excess of a pre-tax margin of 10%.

2. The portion of the profit sharing pool allocated to pilots of US Airways and America West will be no less than 36%.

3. Profit sharing will be paid to each pilot who was employed by US Airways or America West during the year in which the profit was earned based on a formula for distribution to be determined by the Association.

Jim

Thanks Jim. Was the involvement of the AAA MEC to change LOA 93?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Was the involvement of the AAA MEC to change LOA 93?

I have no personal knowledge of the negotiations that led to the transition agreement, so can't give you the answer. I do recall that there was the usual "we gotta" rhetoric - we gotta allow the 170's to be outsourced, we gotta have an agreement before the company enters BK, we gotta have an agreement before the POR is final, etc.

As you say, there were two changes to the profit sharing in the transition agreement:

- LOA 93 gave profit sharing to only East pilots, the TA gave it to both East and West pilots. This reduced East profit sharing checks by roughly 1/3.

- LOA 93 calculated profit sharing as 10% of profits up to a 5% profit margin and 25% of profits above a 5% profit margin, the TA was 10% of profits up to a 10% profit margin and 15% of profits above a 10% margin. Off the top of my head, this probably reduced the 2006 profit sharing checks by another 50%.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

I have no faith in management WORDS however that with which is provided to share holders carries just a little more weight. You see you can lie to employees to manage expectations but once the share holders are involved and their money on the line the information takes a rather drastic turn...

"I have no faith in management WORDS however that with which is provided to share holders carries just a little more weight" I see, but; I must have entirely missed the details provided to the shareholders indicating any notions of imminent rising pay and benefits, thusly, increasing expenses, attendant to the pilot group(s). Perhaps you could clear that up for me.

I see absolutely NOTHING on the horizon that supports the"instantly wonderful contract forthcoming" fantasy at any level.

 

[AWA320]

"I have no faith in management WORDS however that with which is provided to share holders carries just a little more weight" I see, but; I must have entirely missed the details provided to the shareholders indicating any notions of imminent rising pay and benefits, thusly, increasing expenses, attendant to the pilot group(s). Perhaps you could clear that up for me.

I see absolutely NOTHING on the horizon that supports the"instantly wonderful contract forthcoming" fantasy at any level.

No what the shareholders got to see is the company plan for the next 5yrs including a/c plan and most shocking the amount of pilot retirements both east and west. Now lets get backl to the original question EastUs as I have allowed you to dance around it for too long. 77 east retirements what makes you think you are ENTITLED to anything over and above that number????

 

[EastUS]

No what the shareholders got to see is the company plan for the next 5yrs including a/c plan and most shocking the amount of pilot retirements both east and west. Now lets get backl to the original question EastUs as I have allowed you to dance around it for too long. 77 east retirements what makes you think you are ENTITLED to anything over and above that number????

Shucks....I'm naturally fully greatfull that you've "allowed" me anything at all

"what makes you think you are ENTITLED to anything" I dunno, perhaps several times your flight time and work experience...not that such counts for anything within your perspective, as I do certainly realize.

If you'll be so very kind as to explain WTF it is that you're currently braying about...? I honestly don't have the slightest clue here. 77 east retirements?..Within what time period are we talking here? Five years? = Hardly any realistic sum for that period of time. Are you perhaps, also considering the announcments regarding additional international flying, evidently to be based out east? Sigh...I can imagine that must be a wee bit frustrating for you.

As per the imaginary, plastic-fantastic, instantly wonderful, to be had yesterday "contract"....I'm still seeing NOTHING whatsoever that provides the tiniest inkling that supports your notions in any way. Mangement's stated that they're not going to toss a buncha' cash on the table, other than essentially parity for the east and 3-4% gain for the west. How that would get anyone out west excited's beyond me...without any instant St Nic visit that is. How that would serve as any source of joy to anyone out east is equally beyond me. Upper management's stated that there is no feeling that the east would vote in any contract with Nic's poison included...perhaps you feel that you fully know better.

PS: Aren't you overdue for some session of calling us all "sheep" out east?, and/or assuring yourself, via your own postings, that we'll all just merrilly cave into the Nic bit for a few coins?
I'm almost starting to miss all the childish and gleefully spoken "Practice Cactus"/"It's OVER!!"/"Binding arbitration!!"/and all the vast rivers of such stuff, that was so respectfull and considerate, constantly flowing from your side all this time. All the recent whining's just tiresome, and frankly,...pathetic.