APA Pilots Reject TA

[WorldTraveler]

yes, Mach,
with the freeze or termination of DB pension plans, (likely freeze for AA's plans), there is a lot less incentive for AA employees to stick it out until the end.
For alot of AA pilots, exactly the type of situation you note will help keep them going for another 5-10 years or more... and some very well may end up moving to another country.

There are ways to survive major changes in life and succeed. We would all be interested in updates from you about the numbers of AA pilots who just decide to check out.

Interesting. My point is AA has less regional flying than DL & UA (an accepted fact). Sure DL may have less regional than UA but its still more than AA with a more flexible scope permitting operating of economically viable 70+ seat RJs.

Josh

In the interest of fairness, let me throw in AA and UA’s numbers
AA DFW 61% mainline ops, 86% mainline seats
AA NA 48% mainline ops, 75% mainline seats

US CLT 38% mainline flights; 61% mainline seats
US NA 37% mainline flights; 60% mainline seats
And then look at average number of seats per flight for the primary hub and for N. America
AA DFW 108, NA 100
DL ATL 120, NA 99
UA ORD 85, NA 83
US CLT 95, NA 87

In fact, if you order the size of the regional carrier operation relative to the size of the overall system, the order from largest to smallest would be AA, DL, US, and UA.
Note that DL and UA both have several more hubs and much more national coverage than AA or US.
As is being discussed on the Comair thread on the DL forum, the RJ’s popularity grew as network airlines needed to create nationwide networks from their limited number of hubs.
The rationale for consolidation has long been that it helps reduce the amount of capacity – and less often publicly stated but a clear reality is that consolidation helps remove duplicate hubs.
Consider now that DL has already done a lot of hub rationalization (the reduction of CVG and MEM) while UA clearly has a lot of need to do so. IAH/EWR as HUBS serve the same catchment areas as do CLE/ORD and to a less degree DEN/IAH. But UA has a lot of duplicate capacity left in its network and the size of aircraft at its hubs shows that it has a lot of small gauge, higher CASM capacity that probably needs to be rationalized as evidenced by UA's low average seat number per flight. Consider also that UA's hubs except for NYC are all in larger markets than DL's and it shows that DL is using its RJs to reach smaller markets while UA is using RJs as replacements to alot of mainline markets that DL serves with mainline aircraft.
Add in that DL has already committed to pulling out several hundred 50 seaters and replace them w/ a fewer number of 76 seaters plus mainline aircraft (fewer overall DCI seats) and DL will likely end up with the highest percentage of mainline seats as well as maintain the largest average aircraft size – for all practical purposes it is on par w/ AA right now even though AA has far more RJ restrictions.
UA hasn’t announced exactly what their pilot agreement might look like, but sources say it is very close to DL’s w/ respect to their ability to add large RJs – but whether they have to pull 50 seaters is not clear. Lots more large RJs does not necessarily mean that UA will carry more connecting passengers or add more "spokes" from their hubs. Large RJs are more cost efficient but they do not necessarily grow the network in ways that smaller RJs couldn't have already done.
In either the TA that was shot down or the LBO, AA wanted a lot more large RJs – but note that AA does not have the hubs throughout the country that DL and UA have to add more flights.
US could provide add’l hubs to AA but part of the logic for the merger is that duplicate capacity would be pulled out of the system, thus negating part of the benefit of the large number of RJs.
It also says that part of the reason the AA pilots shot down the TA is because they would have to be further relaxing scope just at the time that DL and UA pilot groups are gaining more control of it.
As w/ many things, AA is several years behind its peers in executing strategies – and part of the ongoing frustration w/ AA labor is that they are being asked to make concessions that others made years before and are beginning to reverse. And while AA has the same strategic reasons to gain the benefits other carriers have already gained, they also are constantly two steps behind other carriers – who are moving on to a new generation of strategies while AA is still struggling to push through the last generation – and to their labor groups, who are gaining benefits as strategies from a previous generation bear fruit.
So, AA’s ability to add more large RJs might help and might make AA’s network look more like its peers, but AA is still chasing strategies that some of its other peers have already benefitted from and are moving on to a new generation of strategies.

 

[Super FLUF]

I can see it now, 737 Captain walks into the livinig room and says to his 3rd wife,listen babe, I know child 1 is in college and the twins are in private high school and we have this beautiful 5000 sq ft home, but I am really mad right now and I want to leave this 175k a year job and move to Guangzhou, China. Let's go tell the kids.

The only thing accurate in the whole post was probably the 3rd wife reference.

Which airline is this that has 737 CA getting paid 175k/yr., and do you have a link to the application site?

 

[chris perry]

Pilots can't walk out

Nothing is stopping AA Pilots from retiring and going to work overseas,they sure can.Starting pay is 200k + plus be based in SFO.

 

[Bogey]

Cute story. Always appreciate a good attempt at sarcastic humor, but I'd give you ranking of a Jamaican swimmer.

Been along time since I've run into that type of a situation. A few characters who are 62 with a 3 year old are always worth a good chuckle. FYI, that 737 Captain is making less per hour than a 767 First Officer 10 years ago. He's making less per hour than after the 23% paycut taken in 2003.

Commuting contracts with US basing are popping up. We'll see how many more come around once the real pressure on AC deliveries hits, assuming a bubble over there doesn't pop.

At least you were able to catch the humor, although your scoring is under review...

Putting it more sincerely, I just don't see the answer beings as simple as, oh well, I'll just take a job in China.

 

[AAviator]

US pilots are stupid for rejecting the TA. Unless we are willing to walk out and defy the judge,AA is fixing to take "US" pilots to the cleaners!

Are you an AA pilot?

 

[AAviator]

The pilots I talked to today kept saying we will leave It in the judges hands. Don't be surprised when you guys get the term sheet, you know, what AA is asking for, the judge won't decide if you deserve atc hold pay, or a 767 pilot should be paid more then a 757 pilot. Hopefully AA needs to have a concenesual agreement before exiting bankruptcy, other wise this will be just like 2001 when you voted down a huge raise because of code sharing agreement AA had with Horizon, only for AA to code share with Alaskan and Horizon.

P.s. not a good time to walk out on your job, with Comair pilots looking for work.


Good luck

bigjets.. thank you for your concern..

We're nine months into a process that has an 18 month timeline..............

 

[AAviator]

Don't make the mistake and think you're not replaceable, there are a lot of pilot schools out there training the next a319 pilot, then AA will be just like a commuter airline, cheap pilots getting their hours before they move to Asia to make $300k. How long before AA makes you sign a contract to stay at AA or for the pilots to pay for their own training like the commuters do.

that said, I wish you guys good luck

wowwwwww

forced contracts? Dude ( or dude-ette) you need to get your head out of the culture that shaped you.. Its a culture the successful airlines don't embrace and live...

http://www.boeing.co...an_outlook.html

http://www.cnbc.com/...safety_concerns

Have you seen the flight time duty time regs the FAA has placed to begin in 2014?

Yea.. Go ahead, keep trying to force 150K/yr Airline pilot into your spreadsheet.

Supply and demand....

 

[Realityck]

American Airlines pilots reject tentative labor agreement; two other union groups OK deals


By SHERYL JEAN
Staff Writer
[email protected]
Published: 08 August 2012 10:46 PM


Pilots at American Airlines Inc. rejected a tentative labor agreement Wednesday, meaning those workers could face tougher terms if a bankruptcy judge allows the airline to toss out its existing contracts.
Sixty-one percent of American’s unionized pilots voted against the agreement.

Also on Wednesday, two groups of American workers represented by the Transport Workers Union approved their tentative agreements. Now, all seven TWU work groups at American, or 24,000 people, have ratified agreements.

The result of the pilots’ vote surprised Allied Pilots Association spokesman and pilot Tom Hoban.

“We thought it would be much closer,” he said. The APA represents about 8,000 active pilots at American.
“We are disappointed with the outcome of today’s APA voting results, as ratification would have been an important step forward in our restructuring,” said Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for the Fort Worth-based airline.
American now awaits a court ruling that would let it toss out its current unresolved labor contracts. U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane is scheduled to rule by Wednesday unless he delays his decision until voting by American’s flight attendants ends Aug. 19 on the airline’s “last, best and final offer.”

Last week, American officials said that if allowed, it would cast aside old contracts and impose new terms for any union that rejects the company’s latest contract proposals.
American’s term sheet is “quite ugly,” Hoban said. “It’s far worse than what was just rejected.”

Reduced costs key
Reduced labor costs are a keystone of American and parent AMR Corp.’s plan to exit bankruptcy as a stand-alone carrier and fend off a takeover bid by US Airways Group Inc. American filed for bankruptcy reorganization in November.
Of the two TWU work groups, the vote by the mechanics and related workers on a new contract was the closest, with 50.25 percent in favor of the agreement. Seventy-nine percent of TWU maintenance stock clerks voted for their agreement.

TWU International president James C. Little said in a statement that no one likes concessions, but “this result is a lot better than what our members would have faced with a court-imposed solution.”
The TWU-ratified agreements include a 3 percent pay raise for mechanics and related workers and a 3.5 percent raise for maintenance stock clerks. The six-year agreements include a readjustment, based on average industry compensation, after 36 months. Health care insurance coverage improved from a previous company offer.

“The ground employees know if things get really rough with American … and there aren’t jobs for all of them, they can be out on the street and, in this economy, they don’t have really strong labor options,” said Peter Feuille, a labor professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
On the other hand, he said, “the pilots know that no airlines fly without them.”
In an online letter to members Monday, APA officials noted the tough terms American has said it would impose if the proposed agreement was rejected.
The APA said the April 19 term sheet called for no hourly pay increases and no three-year readjustment to industry average (that change alone would cost pilots more than $500 million), a pension contribution contingent on consensual agreement, loss of all furlough protection and outsourcing of certain jets at commuter carriers.

No recommendation
In the letter, APA officials didn’t tell pilots how to vote but listed five positives from a “yes” vote and seven negatives from a “no” vote. Pilots didn’t heed the advice.

Why? Hoban pointed to a toxic relationship with American management and unhappiness about concessions required in the proposed agreement. Under the rejected agreement, for example, Airbus 319 pilots would have been paid significantly less than the industry average and health care costs would have increased, he said.
However, the agreement also would have given pilots a 13.5 percent equity stake in AMR after its restructuring, 14 percent pension contributions and an hourly pay rate increase of 4 percent with subsequent pay increases of 2 percent. It also called for no pilot furloughs.

“There’s a great deal of anger that was generated” as pilots took significant concessions in the last decade, Hoban said. “In total, it probably was a bridge too far to get to ratification.”

Bankruptcy’s cost
American’s proposed contracts with its three unions would require more than $800 million in annual cost-cutting by its unionized workers and would include thousands of job cuts.
“AMR management has no intention of emerging from Chapter 11 without ratified [collective bargaining agreements] in place,” airline analyst Hunter Keay of Wolfe Trahan wrote Wednesday in a report.
Even if American imposes its own terms on pilots, it “will then resume negotiations with a pilot community that suddenly has little else to lose,” he said. “We can easily see those negotiations going nowhere, pushing AMR close to the end of its exclusivity period and thus opening the door for [US Airways] to file its own plan of reorganization with the courts.”

American has until Dec. 28 to file its reorganization plan with the bankruptcy court.
“The bottom line is the final chapter in this bankruptcy round with American hasn’t been written,” Feuille said. “Two chapters still out are mutually agreed employment terms with all of its unions and what will happen with US Airways’ attempt to take over American.”

 

[AAviator]

Bankruptcy’s cost
American’s proposed contracts with its three unions would require more than $800 million in annual cost-cutting by its unionized workers and would include thousands of job cuts.
“AMR management has no intention of emerging from Chapter 11 without ratified [collective bargaining agreements] in place,” airline analyst Hunter Keay of Wolfe Trahan wrote Wednesday in a report.
Even if American imposes its own terms on pilots, it “will then resume negotiations with a pilot community that suddenly has little else to lose,” he said. “We can easily see those negotiations going nowhere, pushing AMR close to the end of its exclusivity period and thus opening the door for [US Airways] to file its own plan of reorganization with the courts.”

American has until Dec. 28 to file its reorganization plan with the bankruptcy court.


Unless another extension is granted


“The bottom line is the final chapter in this bankruptcy round with American hasn’t been written,” Feuille said. “Two chapters still out are mutually agreed employment terms with all of its unions and what will happen with US Airways’ attempt to take over American.”

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bankruptcy’s cost
American’s proposed contracts with its three unions would require more than $800 million in annual cost-cutting by its unionized workers and would include thousands of job cuts.
“AMR management has no intention of emerging from Chapter 11 without ratified [collective bargaining agreements] in place,” airline analyst Hunter Keay of Wolfe Trahan wrote Wednesday in a report.
Even if American imposes its own terms on pilots, it “will then resume negotiations with a pilot community that suddenly has little else to lose,” he said. “We can easily see those negotiations going nowhere, pushing AMR close to the end of its exclusivity period and thus opening the door for [US Airways] to file its own plan of reorganization with the courts.”

American has until Dec. 28 to file its reorganization plan with the bankruptcy court.


Unless another extension is granted


“The bottom line is the final chapter in this bankruptcy round with American hasn’t been written,” Feuille said. “Two chapters still out are mutually agreed employment terms with all of its unions and what will happen with US Airways’ attempt to take over American.”

and the creditors will not allow US to buy AA w/o a negotiated business plan and evidence that US can run a combined AA-US operation using the contracts that will be known.
US could manage to acquire AA and not have to tell the creditors how it will make its merger with AA work, but only if they pay off the creditors at levels as good as AA could get in any other situation - and do so w/o involving stock in US.
US cannot possibly engage in an all cash or debt transaction to acquire AA and keep US' own credit rating. They will have to give the creditors US stock - and in so doing will subject themselves to being able to explain how they can make the combined AA/US work.

IOW, US can't acquire AA and pretend to figure out how he is going to make it all work years down the road.

The notion that AA's pilots would gain leverage to get a better deal w/ someone who hasn't fully demonstrated their ability to deliver a solid business plan including cuts where necessary and adjustments in pay to his own people - is beyond reality.

 

[bigjets]

wowwwwww

forced contracts? Dude ( or dude-ette) you need to get your head out of the culture that shaped you.. Its a culture the successful airlines don't embrace and live...

http://www.boeing.co...an_outlook.html

http://www.cnbc.com/...safety_concerns

Have you seen the flight time duty time regs the FAA has placed to begin in 2014?

Yea.. Go ahead, keep trying to force 150K/yr Airline pilot into your spreadsheet.

Supply and demand....

There will always be someone willing to Fly for an airline. For a lot less then what you make, JetBlue, virgin America, frontier, allegiance, any number of charter outfits, any commuter airline, and I bet they don't have the work rules you do either.

At my last company I had to sign a two year contract after they sent me to a Hawker factory school.

Don't get me wrong a good contract for you only helps me out, but don't think you have the upper hand during bankruptcy, or that there is no one else that can fly these planes.

 

[Jacobin777]

and the creditors will not allow US to buy AA w/o a negotiated business plan and evidence that US can run a combined AA-US operation using the contracts that will be known.
US could manage to acquire AA and not have to tell the creditors how it will make its merger with AA work, but only if they pay off the creditors at levels as good as AA could get in any other situation - and do so w/o involving stock in US.
US cannot possibly engage in an all cash or debt transaction to acquire AA and keep US' own credit rating. They will have to give the creditors US stock - and in so doing will subject themselves to being able to explain how they can make the combined AA/US work.

IOW, US can't acquire AA and pretend to figure out how he is going to make it all work years down the road.

The notion that AA's pilots would gain leverage to get a better deal w/ someone who hasn't fully demonstrated their ability to deliver a solid business plan including cuts where necessary and adjustments in pay to his own people - is beyond reality.

WT is basically correct on this.

I don't see how U.S. will be able to acquire AA and/or pay-off creditors with its current balance sheet and market cap. Even if it got "help"/"assistance" from outside group(s), it probably won't be able to take AA over.

Mr. Parker hasn't really shown any details (at least to the public) as to how his plan will succeed.

With few of the other unions agreeing to a contract, AA can show to the courts that its really one (and possibly two unions if the F/A reject the offer) which is holding AA back from exiting BK as a stand-alone carrier.

I guess we'll see what happens soon enough.

For my part and in support of AA, I'm still booking AA tickets for flights in the next up-coming weeks.

 

[AAviator]

Mr. Parker hasn't really shown any details (at least to the public) as to how his plan will succeed.



He has... but has been as quiet as a mouse since he made them.. It involved taking apart LCC's network to feed MIA and the west coast if I remember correctly.



For my part and in support of AA, I'm still booking AA tickets for flights in the next up-coming weeks.

Thank you for the support of our airline. We're trying!!!

 

[AAviator]

There will always be someone willing to Fly for an airline. For a lot less then what you make, JetBlue, virgin America, frontier, allegiance, any number of charter outfits, any commuter airline, and I bet they don't have the work rules you do either.

At my last company I had to sign a two year contract after they sent me to a Hawker factory school.

Don't get me wrong a good contract for you only helps me out, but don't think you have the upper hand during bankruptcy, or that there is no one else that can fly these planes.

Scab? Is that you?

I don't even know where to begin with this one.....

How and why are SW, UA, DAL, Fedex, UPS, NK managing????

 

[767one]

US pilots are stupid for rejecting the TA. Unless we are willing to walk out and defy the judge,AA is fixing to take "US" pilots to the cleaners!

Having been through 2 BK's I can tell you that I'm happy to see a labor group have the guts to say no. You can help them destroy your contract by giving in or you can make them take it. I would prefer to make them take it from me.