APA leadership meets with USAirways executives

[jacfrost]

Bottom line, as a premium passenger, US AIr services are just not on par with AA, and since UA took over CO, AA seems to be the last premium service airline left (sorry, DA still is not there). Internationally, there are even bigger discrepencies. For the 200k+ miles I fly a year, nothing domestically beats the 1st class on the 777s, and once they are done updating the wide-body fleet to the newer business class seats, game over. This is why I choose AA, and this is why I love AA. Yes I flown the so-called "better" service airlines based over-seas, but not worth the price premium nor the sub-par frequent flyer programs as compared with AADvantage.

At the end of the day I wish everyone would just be able to sit back and see things from another's perspective to understand the world is a different place, and that if you hate how much a senior member of management makes, quit your job, go back to school, and spend 20 years building a career to the point where you can be the senior executive. Its like a FA or mechanic hating a pilot for how much he makes, or an employee at Home Depot getting pissed at a Doctor for how much he makes. Its not fair and makes no sense. Trust me, investors don't like greedy management teams and more than labor......

We all choose what we do with our lives, and you can't then scream "me too, why can't I have what he has?". We don't know what that person went thru to get there, and none of us are in a position to pass judgement on the ease or difficulty of doing someone else's job. Life has never and will never be fair. Plus, if you took every dollar of compensation paid to the executives and re-distributed to the employees, everyone might get enough to go out to dinner, or maybe head out of town for a night with the wife......we are not talking big time difference to your pay-checks. Those bonuses wouldn't have any real affect on the company's current standing.

Finally, don't blame the current team for yesterday's failures. Bottom line, this airline is still recovering from the decisions made under Carty, and costs that are out of control. I'm not just talking about emplyee costs either, there are plenty of other costs in there they have had to deal with. Bottom line, as a businessman AA has a VERY good stand-alone plan, feel free to PM me and I will explain why. Its an approach that is very similar to my company's and is what has allowed my company to flourish when everyone told me my partners and I were crazy.

I admire Arpey for not heading to Chapter 11, simply for moral reasons. But bottom line this Chapter 11 is like a cleansing of sorts. With new planes, lower costs (outside of labor) and more FLEXIBLE labor contracts, I think your futures at AA are better than you think. I think the employees are better than customers sometimes give you credit for, and I think parts of this management team are better than what eh employees give them credit for.

So enough fighting amongst everyone, take the time, as much as it sucks, to look at it from the view you hate and refuse to recognize. If everyone does that, INCLUDING MYSELF, I bet everyone would be closer to agreeing on many things. Just wish I could get labor and management to do that.....

Cheers,
777 / 757 / 767

Cleansing? It is a LEGAL path the company can take to continue stealing from it's employees. AA did need to shed some items that only bankruptcy would have allowed them to shed but they did NOT need to continue taking from the entire employee group that they have been taking from for the last 10 years. I am not talking in terms of just a paycheck. The company is in great shape right now but it has been off of labors back, not managements. There has been no "Shared Sacrifice".............

 

[700UW]

No wonder the IAM has been in a downward spiral as you posted about, they ushered in multiple rounds of concessions. USAir is pathetic, its really no better than Spirit. The only reason they are barely profitable is because they slashed wages and benefits from their employees with the help of the IAM. No wonder organized labor is really on the downhill in this country

Josh

First of all all the major airline's employees took concessions, most of them in Chapter 11, unlike AA who in 2003 got concessions from their unions outside of chapter 11.

Second, US has a younger fleet than AA and is making money. Has been close to #1 or slightly lower in On-time rankings for several years. Are you an airline quality expert now? Have you used facts, flown on all airlines using all their service levels, are you a maintenance inspector to gauge the quality of the planes? What scientific data have you used to prove your outrageous and erroneous statements?

US isnt making profits off its employees' back, all work groups except the Pilots and Flight Attendants received contractual improvements in their transition agreements, including raises. The AFA just reached a new T/A and the Mechanic and Related and Fleet Service are in Section 6 negotiations.

Once again the Section 1113 C process in chapter 11 forces unions to negotiate with the company or face abrogation, yet the TWU who started the downward spiral in 1983 gave concessions in 2003 outside of chapter 11, how could this be?

Once again, Joshie, dont let the facts get in your way!

 

[FA Mikey]

You are going to BS us with those so called facts? Get real!

 

[wings396]

You too will have all of the facts once AA gets done with you Mikey, or should I say your AA....

 

[700UW]

Those are facts, care to dispute what I wrote?

 

[mike33]

I try very hard not to post on someone else's board because that or those someones usually have more information than i do reg their own company. But, i have to agree with 700 and his information.
On the other hand i have no comment on 777/767/757 loves' ridiculous statement. simply because anyone who uses DA=Delta,
US air service = Usairways is ill informed and only speaks because his company is paying for his travels, which is fine but the employees are the company and they are the ones serving you on that premium service. So, ill leave it at that and hope your service won't diminish when Horton the reaper walks away with his 30-60 Million off the backs of his employees. Your caring is for yourself and i understand that but cant appreciate it !!

 

[737823]

First of all all the major airline's employees took concessions, most of them in Chapter 11, unlike AA who in 2003 got concessions from their unions outside of chapter 11.

But the IAM at USAir was the first to lie down and roll over.

Second, US has a younger fleet than AA and is making money.

Only making money because they have slashed wages and benefits of employees, cut thousands of jobs, pared back flying substantially

Has been close to #1 or slightly lower in On-time rankings for several years.

When a substantial portion of your operations are from airports less prone to delays like CLT, LAS, and PHX that should be no surprise. AA and UA operate from highly delay prone airports like LAX, LGA, JFK, ORD, SFO, etc

Are you an airline quality expert now? Have you used facts, flown on all airlines using all their service levels, are you a maintenance inspector to gauge the quality of the planes? What scientific data have you used to prove your outrageous and erroneous statements?

Flown on plenty of airlines from around the world in premium cabins, I am familiar with the premium and economy offerings on US carriers. Fact is USAir(ways) is at the bottom of the barrel. See you don't know about Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines, SWISS, etc and have such an strong attachment to USAir.
Here's a complete list of the air carriers I have flown that I recall:
AC, AF, AA, AS, BA, B6, CO, DL, FL, JL, KE, KL, IB, LH, LX, LY, NW, PD, PG, WN, SQ, TW, UA, US, VS, WS and many others I don't recall.

I can confidently say USAir is the most abysmal of them all and whenever possible I avoid flying or doing business with them for this reason. I take the Shuttle because it is convenient for me, prefer JetBlue but our company prefers we fly US. It's silly, I've raised the point to corporate travel before but sometimes override the restriction and book B6 anyway.

And regarding fleet age, before long AA will have the youngest fleet among all US carriers. AA has a few old 762s and MD-80s which are outliers and drag down the average fleet age, I imagine the median fleet age is much lower.

US isnt making profits off its employees' back,

And you consider yourself a unionist? US management must be glad to hear this. Most unionists believe the company is always out to screw the workers and management rewards themselves while workers suffer. No wonder the AFA kept saying during the UA FA election that the IAM would be more palatable to UA management...

Once again the Section 1113 C process in chapter 11 forces unions to negotiate with the company or face abrogation, yet the TWU who started the downward spiral in 1983 gave concessions in 2003 outside of chapter 11, how could this be?

I'm pretty sure Bob was referring to the downward sprial of the IAM "for the past 10 years or so". What does 1983 have to do with post 9/11 concessions? Two entirely different points in time. Fact is for many unions in this country, people are trying to maintain what they have from their employers not obtain to more. Look at Verizon with the CWA and IBEW they used to be very hardcore about their contract demands but the tone has weakened, VZ wants to have them pay for healthcare and switch new hires to a defined contribution plan. The IAM turned its back on members at Lockheed Martin and allowed the company and most recently at Caterpillar in Joliet, IL. You can say how the IAM championed these benefits and MEPPs ran by the IAM but the fact is they have come underpressure and blinked and eliminated them. Kev has posted before that he think its crazy how workers give up so much in negotiations to maintain the pension.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Wrong again, the IAM was the last union on the property in the first bankruptcy to accept concessions, ALPA agreed outside of chapter 11, Fleet agreed in Chapter 11 and M&R voted down the first offer in concessions while all the other unions had agreed.

(you make this too easy Joshie)

US is #1 airline on the east coast which is subject to more delays, guess you dont count DCA and PHL?

You are not an airline expert, you have no background to be one, now do you?

And how many times does Chapter 11 and Section 1113 C be explained to you?

 

[737823]

Wrong again, the IAM was the last union on the property in the first bankruptcy to accept concessions, ALPA agreed outside of chapter 11, Fleet agreed in Chapter 11 and M&R voted down the first offer in concessions while all the other unions had agreed.

(you make this too easy Joshie)

US is #1 airline on the east coast which is subject to more delays, guess you dont count DCA and PHL?

You are not an airline expert, you have no background to be one, now do you?

And how many times does Chapter 11 and Section 1113 C be explained to you?

You conveniently circumvent that the IAM reached settlements to give the company exactly what they wanted at Caterpillar and Lockheed Martin:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/aug2012/joli-a16.shtml
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444375104577595342394784960.html
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2012/june/0624ae-labor-contract.html

Josh

 

[700UW]

Last time I checked this is about US Airways and American's unions meeting.

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

I try very hard not to post on someone else's board because that or those someones usually have more information than i do reg their own company. But, i have to agree with 700 and his information.
On the other hand i have no comment on 777/767/757 loves' ridiculous statement. simply because anyone who uses DA=Delta,
US air service = Usairways is ill informed and only speaks because his company is paying for his travels, which is fine but the employees are the company and they are the ones serving you on that premium service. So, ill leave it at that and hope your service won't diminish when Horton the reaper walks away with his 30-60 Million off the backs of his employees. Your caring is for yourself and i understand that but cant appreciate it !!

You are dumber than rocks. My company pays for my travels, but since I own 70% of it, I guess I pay for my travel. I don't give a sh*t who serves me food, a first class seat on DA or US ain't as nice as the flagship suites and the First class service domestically for DA and US suck seat wise. THAT MY FRIEND. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. Sure, I like AA FAs, and gate agents, etc......many of them recognize me and I look forward to seeing them each and every month. But, as the MD-80s prove, the best service in the world is worthless if the airplane sucks.

So many of you have your heads way up your asses, and you wonder why the public never takes your side. A family member is a former APA member, and he just shakes his head when he hears you guys speak.

You wonder why the courts are taking the company's side as well..........unbelievable.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[mike33]

You are dumber than rocks. My company pays for my travels, but since I own 70% of it, I guess I pay for my travel. I don't give a sh*t who serves me food, a first class seat on DA or US ain't as nice as the flagship suites and the First class service domestically for DA and US suck seat wise. THAT MY FRIEND. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. Sure, I like AA FAs, and gate agents, etc......many of them recognize me and I look forward to seeing them each and every month. But, as the MD-80s prove, the best service in the world is worthless if the airplane sucks.

So many of you have your heads way up your asses, and you wonder why the public never takes your side. A family member is a former APA member, and he just shakes his head when he hears you guys speak.

You wonder why the courts are taking the company's side as well..........unbelievable.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

Like i said....you dont give a sh+t so why are you posting here......???....70% Hmmm i have my doubts. The AA employees are taking it in the shorts in a false BK. Last time i knew the courts were suppose to be neutral..... and the codes are DL=Delta US= Usairways. Hit the Ball or Hit the Showers.....!!!!! as they say. Save ur rebuttal....Its insignificant in this situation.

When chastising a companies employees " Cheers " in closing is not appropriate !!!

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

Like i said....you dont give a sh+t so why are you posting here......???....70% Hmmm i have my doubts. The AA employees are taking it in the shorts in a false BK. Last time i knew the courts were suppose to be neutral..... and the codes are DL=Delta US= Usairways. Hit the Ball or Hit the Showers.....!!!!! as they say. Save ur rebuttal....Its insignificant in this situation.

When chastising a companies employees " Cheers " in closing is not appropriate !!!

Get a clue ####, my family member was flying planes while you were sucking on your thumb. I got TONS invested in this company. Difference is, REAL men and women used to fly airplanes, now its seems like its just a bunch of crap. I have spent more time in the air than you have, and I don't care WHAT equipment you are on.

Get a clue...........get a real clue. You don't get it........you ain't sh*t without the customers. Your attitude, is exactly why the public HATES unions. Why some former UNION MEMBERS, hate unions. Its a shame that a few of you ignorant members with your heads up your arses ruin it for the rest of them. Get a clue buddy, and stop blaming the world for the world's changes.......if the voting public saw this forum, they would pay to see the judge slap you. You have no clue........totally devoid of reality.

If you had a clue, you would have read my original post that started your bantor and see that I was pointing out that BOTH SIDES need to sit back and look at this from the other's point of view, to see the other's way of thinking, to feel the other's pain and dissatisfaction. But you can't do that, all you can do is read part of a post and like a dog, react without thinking. This is why you couldn't run a company, because instead of having to cut their compensation, when you were done with it, they would ALL be looking for new jobs.

Take good old Uncle Bob (and if you don't know who I am talking about, perhaps you should not correct others about their vernacular.....unless that is you were in diapers when that term was coined) for a moment......the guy that everyone thought was the anti-christ. Have you ever talked to him? Ever care to see who he is? I have and I know former APA members who have that walk away with a COMPLETELY different view of the man. I will go one better, if the company management is such crap, and the rest of us "public types" mean nothing, then I guess all you care about is your own, correct? If that is true why are the turnouts for retirement dinners throughout the system decreasing every year? Exactly, because you guys don't even care about each other, don't respect each other, see your bases as just the city you have to commute to to work from.......so how can you expect anyone to respect you?

Btw, I don't know ANY management team member that gets 12 days off a month, or get to live in Philly and work out of Chicago.......but then again, why would you take the time to see the advantages you do have. You would rather just see all the good things management gets, and all the bad things you get.

Lets also talk about safety, and the claims of employees that management threatens and you should "use" the rules to get back at AA: If you really cared so much about safety, and if its the GREEDY management team that can affect safety, then why don't you all voluntarily ask for the end to commuters? How many times have I seen an overweight captain sitting in first commuting from one city to the next to start his line. He already looks tired and beat up----that is a good situation when something goes wrong during the flight and he needs to be as alert as possible, and I guess its management's fault that he chooses to live in one city and fly from another. NEWSFLASH, in the real world, people have to move or quit the job ALL THE TIME. That is in this place called REALITY.

So, before you begin to chastise other's for their views of the situation, try sitting back, as I requested from the beginning, and taking the chance to see it from the other side. Oh, and btw, I hate corporate America, and think the possibility that the UCC could break-up the airline and sell it off in pieces MAKES ME SICK. I hate seeing layoffs, and feel as if you get what you pay for, so you better pay people damn good to keep them good. I'm the farthest thing from a management fan boy........but I also won't vilify them as I am able to see the industry, not the management team, is the real problem.


Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[mike33]

Im not a pilot and i dont commute. I have been layed off 4 times and have commuted each time. But you can't dispute that this is a False BK can you. As for your " Cheers" to end your Tyraid... It still doesnt apply.

But this one does..

Cheers

 

[Super FLUF]

Get a clue ####, my family member was flying planes while you were sucking on your thumb. I got TONS invested in this company. Difference is, REAL men and women used to fly airplanes, now its seems like its just a bunch of crap. I have spent more time in the air than you have, and I don't care WHAT equipment you are on.

Get a clue...........get a real clue. You don't get it........you ain't sh*t without the customers. Your attitude, is exactly why the public HATES unions. Why some former UNION MEMBERS, hate unions. Its a shame that a few of you ignorant members with your heads up your arses ruin it for the rest of them. Get a clue buddy, and stop blaming the world for the world's changes.......if the voting public saw this forum, they would pay to see the judge slap you. You have no clue........totally devoid of reality.

If you had a clue, you would have read my original post that started your bantor and see that I was pointing out that BOTH SIDES need to sit back and look at this from the other's point of view, to see the other's way of thinking, to feel the other's pain and dissatisfaction. But you can't do that, all you can do is read part of a post and like a dog, react without thinking. This is why you couldn't run a company, because instead of having to cut their compensation, when you were done with it, they would ALL be looking for new jobs.

Take good old Uncle Bob (and if you don't know who I am talking about, perhaps you should not correct others about their vernacular.....unless that is you were in diapers when that term was coined) for a moment......the guy that everyone thought was the anti-christ. Have you ever talked to him? Ever care to see who he is? I have and I know former APA members who have that walk away with a COMPLETELY different view of the man. I will go one better, if the company management is such crap, and the rest of us "public types" mean nothing, then I guess all you care about is your own, correct? If that is true why are the turnouts for retirement dinners throughout the system decreasing every year? Exactly, because you guys don't even care about each other, don't respect each other, see your bases as just the city you have to commute to to work from.......so how can you expect anyone to respect you?

Btw, I don't know ANY management team member that gets 12 days off a month, or get to live in Philly and work out of Chicago.......but then again, why would you take the time to see the advantages you do have. You would rather just see all the good things management gets, and all the bad things you get.

Lets also talk about safety, and the claims of employees that management threatens and you should "use" the rules to get back at AA: If you really cared so much about safety, and if its the GREEDY management team that can affect safety, then why don't you all voluntarily ask for the end to commuters? How many times have I seen an overweight captain sitting in first commuting from one city to the next to start his line. He already looks tired and beat up----that is a good situation when something goes wrong during the flight and he needs to be as alert as possible, and I guess its management's fault that he chooses to live in one city and fly from another. NEWSFLASH, in the real world, people have to move or quit the job ALL THE TIME. That is in this place called REALITY.

So, before you begin to chastise other's for their views of the situation, try sitting back, as I requested from the beginning, and taking the chance to see it from the other side. Oh, and btw, I hate corporate America, and think the possibility that the UCC could break-up the airline and sell it off in pieces MAKES ME SICK. I hate seeing layoffs, and feel as if you get what you pay for, so you better pay people damn good to keep them good. I'm the farthest thing from a management fan boy........but I also won't vilify them as I am able to see the industry, not the management team, is the real problem.


Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

"It puts the lotion in the basket"