APA Pilots Reject TA

[Jacobin777]

Please expand on this one. I want to hear how everyone is being held "hostage" by the big bad evil pilots.

Why are you worried anyways? Another poster said the government would step in and stop us from doing anything. Some others said that we wouldn't do anything at all.

Besides that, you implied that the company can just hire as they see fit and replace us all.

With all of the chips falling into place as you guys see it, why do you even worry about what we are doing? Sounds to me like management will just put us in our place and that will be the end of that.

"Happily ever after"

The only news which seems to be a "problem" is basically coming from the pilots as well as the F/A's. Ostensibly, its the voice of the pilots union the past few years which have been making all the headlines. I don't see strikes, comments, complaints from the other tens of thousands of AA employees. Do you?

Like I said, you want AA to merge with US? That's fine by me as the branding will be AA out of DFW in OneWorld. I doubt my flying will change nor do I believe there will be a big change in the AAdvantage Program (maybe some miles dilution), fleet/seat changes, etc.

For me, it will probably be 90% status quo.

As I mentioned, "be careful what you've asked for, you just might get it".

Super FLUF,
I'm ....ROTFLMAO at the Naivete of a lot of the posters on this particuliar thread.

These folks don't seem to have a F'n CLUE as to how Much POWER you guys/gals have !

But I DO !!

APA, you guys ROCK !!
And I PRAY that APFA "Rocks" with you.

Good Luck !
Make those M F.......T A K E it from you.
That is,...........IF Horton has the BALLS to do so.

Sure, we're so naive....is that why many of us predicted on various message boards this would happen years ago? Don't let the facts get in the way of your distorted views...

"So much power"? Is that why contracts are going to be abrogated and the unions can't do anything about it? That's what you call "power"? LOL...

 

[Mrs. McFly]

Good negotiating strategy doesn’t involve laying all of your cards on the table… AA labor threw their support behind US even if it was only an effort to “show the finger to AA mgmt”. But since US is the only airline that has made an offer public, it isn’t at all known that US is the best option for AA pilots and I am sure there are plenty of AA pilots – and other employees – who were happy to use the US overtures to their advantage – but weren’t about ready to sign on the dotted line. Perhaps those voices are beginning to grow stronger.

Didn't Bates, Little, and Glading basically sign on the dotted line without member input or a vote? There's nothing wrong with using interest and hypothetical agreements as bait...it's actually smart. But how deep in the weeds did everyone go to force management's hand in negotiations? How legally binding are these AIP's with US? These are questions that haven't been sufficiently answered.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not sure that the agreements that were made have much if any legal standing.

It still doesn't change the fact that the creditors need to see alot more than just promises to labor before they agree to accept US' plan - unless it consists of all cash or debt assumed totally by US - practically guaranteed not to occur since AA's value coming out of BK will probably be 3-4X what LCC is worth.

 

[tom barry]

The only news which seems to be a "problem" is basically coming from the pilots as well as the F/A's. Ostensibly, its the voice of the pilots union the past few years which have been making all the headlines. I don't see strikes, comments, complaints from the other tens of thousands of AA employees. Do you?

Like I said, you want AA to merge with US? That's fine by me as the branding will be AA out of DFW in OneWorld. I doubt my flying will change nor do I believe there will be a big change in the AAdvantage Program (maybe some miles dilution), fleet/seat changes, etc.

For me, it will probably be 90% status quo.

As I mentioned, "be careful what you've asked for, you just might get it".



Sure, we're so naive....is that why many of us predicted on various message boards this would happen years ago? Don't let the facts get in the way of your distorted views...

"So much power"? Is that why contracts are going to be abrogated and the unions can't do anything about it? That's what you call "power"? LOL...

Jake,
Not allowing a flight to push back from the gate if so much as a "Period" is out of place (etc) on an FAA log book form.....Is POWER.

Calling out sick at the Last possible minute(with Drs. documentation OF COURSE) is POWER.

Surely you hav'nt forgotten what can(and HAS) Happened during Thanksgiving/Xmas/News Years, just with the FA's alone have you ???

If that GUY/GAL in the left seat says..." NO GO ", or isn't even in the CP to say anything, could be "Interesting" to say the least.
The BIG $$$ flights originate in JFK/MIA. Care to see how by how much...those guys rejected AA latest POS ?

 

[Super FLUF]

I don't see strikes, comments, complaints from the other tens of thousands of AA employees. Do you?

Well let's see.....you have dozens of "burn the mo fo down" threads by the mechanics on this forum alone.

The FA's are no more happy - they are voting on a bad-or-worse LBFO that hands them draconian cuts to their contract. They are ready to burn this place down.

The gate agents are white hot over the company taking them to court to prevent them from voting on unionization. They are about to face massive outsourcing to Tom Devalle's (sp?) outsourcing company. So they now have nothing to lose.

The fleet service guys are looking at half or more of their jobs being outsourced to a new alter-ego company (much like UAL and DAL did). I'm sure they are thrilled about that.

So let's see, besides the pilots, FA's, mechanics, fleet service, and ticket agents, I think everyone here at AA is really really happy.

 

[737823]

Jake,
Not allowing a flight to push back from the gate if so much as a "Period" is out of place (etc) on an FAA log book form.....Is POWER.

Calling out sick at the Last possible minute(with Drs. documentation OF COURSE) is POWER.

Surely you hav'nt forgotten what can(and HAS) Happened during Thanksgiving/Xmas/News Years, just with the FA's alone have you ???

If that GUY/GAL in the left seat says..." NO GO ", or isn't even in the CP to say anything, could be "Interesting" to say the least.
The BIG $$$ flights originate in JFK/MIA. Care to see how by how much...those guys rejected AA latest POS ?

If there is any job action the feds will strike it down so quick you won't even realize anything happened. Planning job action during Thanksgiving and Christmas travel? That won't go over well no way you'll get to strike then. The UK wouldn't let the BA crews strike on Easter weekend which is even less of a holiday than Thanksgiving or Christmas. Canadian PM Stephen Harper blocked job action from Air Canada workers too. You guys have no leverage, you can come on here and carry on about how unhappy you and make empty threats but nothing will happen.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I think you may be conflating strikes and items like sickouts with working to rule. It may be a fine line, but there is a difference...

 

[Mach85ER]

Josh,

I think you and many others are completely clueless as the affect a disaffected, pissed off, demoralized group of employees can have on a very labor intensive organization. I see an analogy to a NFL football team. If you line up a 15-1 team next to a 1-15 team before kickoff, they look identical as would the AA team next to the SWA team assuming similiar uniforms. It's the execution that's the killer. I see a Judge having an easier time justifying a TRO against the 1-15 NFL team than the AA group.

Unless you work in a key function connected to the average AA flight, I don't think you or anyone realizes the combined effort of FA's, Mechanics, Agents and Rampers to 'grease' the system daily to make it work. It shouldn't take a genius to realize that some areas will suffer. There are many passenger service issues that a typical cockpit crew deal with on a weekly basis. My bet is the passengers won't like the result of a 1113 cramdown if it happens tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Kev3188]

... I don't think you or anyone realizes the combined effort of FA's, Mechanics, Agents and Rampers to 'grease' the system daily to make it work...

+1

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh,

I think you and many others are completely clueless as the affect a disaffected, pissed off, demoralized group of employees can have on a very labor intensive organization. I see an analogy to a NFL football team. If you line up a 15-1 team next to a 1-15 team before kickoff, they look identical as would the AA team next to the SWA team assuming similiar uniforms. It's the execution that's the killer. I see a Judge having an easier time justifying a TRO against the 1-15 NFL team than the AA group.

Unless you work in a key function connected to the average AA flight, I don't think you or anyone realizes the combined effort of FA's, Mechanics, Agents and Rampers to 'grease' the system daily to make it work. It shouldn't take a genius to realize that some areas will suffer. There are many passenger service issues that a typical cockpit crew deal with on a weekly basis. My bet is the passengers won't like the result of a 1113 cramdown if it happens tomorrow afternoon.

The problem is, quite simply, that AA is running a pretty reliable operation and is not currently at the bottom of the pack of the industry on a number of performance metrics which is where you would expect them to be if there were severe labor issues or pushback.
UA occupies that spot fairly firmly due to integration issues but you will remember how badly UA's operation went down the toilet in 2000 when labor was unhappy - and that was just the pilots.

I'm still not sure that AA people will obtain what they expect but I don't think the operation is in bad enough shape to make the case that AA needs to fork over cash in order to make it work.

Remember also that UA wasn't in Bk when its operation went down the toilet and isn't there now. There are - like it or not - alot more options to "solve" the problems in BK than exist outside of BK.

It is also worth noting that UA's performance today is closer to the norm for the industry for much of past 35 years ago. The airline industry has learned alot about how to run a reliable operation under the immense cost pressures that are the post-deregulation environment. The average operational performance for the industry is as good as it is - and AA is at or above average - because they are overcoming things that crippled the airline in the past.

 

[Mach85ER]

WT,

I'm not looking at metrics in the rearview mirror. Plenty was unknown and unsettled, hence business as usual.

As for past metrics of UAL showing today's performance not being that bad. Nice try, just convince the media and the internet forum savvy customers that the numbers aren't a problem.

We'll see. I know in my case, things will change, and you'd probably be surprised as to why.

 

[Jacobin777]

Jake,
Not allowing a flight to push back from the gate if so much as a "Period" is out of place (etc) on an FAA log book form.....Is POWER.

Calling out sick at the Last possible minute(with Drs. documentation OF COURSE) is POWER.

Surely you hav'nt forgotten what can(and HAS) Happened during Thanksgiving/Xmas/News Years, just with the FA's alone have you ???

If that GUY/GAL in the left seat says..." NO GO ", or isn't even in the CP to say anything, could be "Interesting" to say the least.
The BIG $$$ flights originate in JFK/MIA. Care to see how by how much...those guys rejected AA latest POS ?

Stopping a few flights on a daily still isn't real power however. More a "reactionary" stance.

Well let's see.....you have dozens of "burn the mo fo down" threads by the mechanics on this forum alone.

The FA's are no more happy - they are voting on a bad-or-worse LBFO that hands them draconian cuts to their contract. They are ready to burn this place down.

The gate agents are white hot over the company taking them to court to prevent them from voting on unionization. They are about to face massive outsourcing to Tom Devalle's (sp?) outsourcing company. So they now have nothing to lose.

The fleet service guys are looking at half or more of their jobs being outsourced to a new alter-ego company (much like UAL and DAL did). I'm sure they are thrilled about that.

So let's see, besides the pilots, FA's, mechanics, fleet service, and ticket agents, I think everyone here at AA is really really happy.

That still doesn't represent the majority of complaints one reads in the media, nor reads on the various message boards. Nor do we see gate agents, ect. trying to persuade Parker buying/merger AA. At least not in the media nor from what I've read.

At the end of the day, AA needs a cost structure which will allow it to compete against DL, UA, etc.

I understand that AA made a lot of employees take pay cuts back in 2003, but the problem is that it was still not enough. DL and UA have a total cost structure is which is still lower than AA's.

If AA can get back onto a "level-playing field" with the others, I think it can thrive, expand and provide job security.

Can management do things in "good faith" such as take pay cuts, etc? Yes. That being said, AA has cut 20% of management-I haven't seen that happening with other sections of employees at AA.
Unfortunately, that is how a free-market system works.

Parker still hasn't shown us in public at least how his numbers will work.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT,

I'm not looking at metrics in the rearview mirror. Plenty was unknown and unsettled, hence business as usual.

As for past metrics of UAL showing today's performance not being that bad. Nice try, just convince the media and the internet forum savvy customers that the numbers aren't a problem.

I'm not saying UA's stats are acceptable or look good. I am simply pointing out that the bar has been moved up over the past several years and UA's performance today - wihch might be on par with what existed years ago - is not acceptable today.

UA also realized that for whatever reason they have to fix their operation because there is ample evidence that they are losing very valuable passengers. I still say that AA has benefitted from UA's problems when AA has most needed it.

There is no doubt that AA will feel it if the well-oiled machine that is modern airline ops doesn't work right because of disgruntled employees. I'm just not sure that you will get what you want at this point - and may open up alot of other possibilities that you might not have considered or wanted to admit.
But at least for pilots, AA pilots will become some of the lowest paid in the industry - the mechanics say the same thing will be true for them - so there is alot less risk to your earnings and career progression if a job transfer occurs to another airline where your seniority is somewhat close to what you have today at AA. That is part of why I have said that an asset sale that involves breaking up AA might result in the best outcome for AA employees - cmopared to an AA standalone plan or a combination with US.