Thats not really what the court said, workers can strike upon abrogation, but Airline workers have to get released by the NMB first. The AFA had a contract and were not in Section 6 prior to NWA going into BK. The pilots were in Sect 6 for 6(?) years already.
APA prepares for strike vote
- Thread starter Super FLUF
- Start date
Thats not really what the court said, workers can strike upon abrogation, but Airline workers have to get released by the NMB first. The AFA had a contract and were not in Section 6 prior to NWA going into BK. The pilots were in Sect 6 for 6(?) years already.
What would be the basis for not releasing the parties?
One of the highest paid yet the Judge still found not one but two reasons to reject abrogation. We are at the bottom , we had at least ten things that were excessive and not necessary for their business plan.
Dude give it up already AA made their case our contract would have been tossed just like the pilots will be. Even the FA voted yes and their the ones with balls!
Tossed after the stuff that was excessive is removed. There was a lot of stuff in ours that was excessive and unmatched in the industry as far as being concessionary.
The same basis they used not to realease any of AA unions pre BK.
The basis was that they did not give Mediation a chance. When they asked they were only in it a few months.
As I said before, other than Maint nobody really had a reason to want to push for reklease, most were at or near the top and if they landed in a PEB after getting released there's a chance they would not have gained anything and been locked in. For maint the risk could have been that the PEB would have recommended allowing more outsourcing, assuming thats what AA really wanted.
The NMB declares an impasse when it becomes clear that Mediation is not likely to produce a settlement, well if the company has gone as far as abrogation through BK then how could the NMB turn around and say "give mediation a little more time"?
I guess we have to resign to the fact that you are so entrenched in your position you will not see axiomatic truth .
The idea that the NMB would release us, just because they should ,has been historicaly proven to be naive at best.
Hopeful
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Bob has done alot for promoting the aircraft mechanic craft. Can't fault him for that.
But there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
We voted our contract in. Doesn't matter if it was 48 votes or 4800 votes.
I am not willing to live vicariously through the pilots although I wish them good luck.
They rejected their deal for their reasons and their reasons alone.
Their 401k match was far greater than the rest of ours as was their equity offer. Apparently they are worth more than the rest of us and must be hurting their roto-cuffs patting each other on their collective backs repeatedly because they are the backbone of the airline.
The laws are what the laws are pertaining to bankruptcy and, in our case, the RLA.
If the pilots get abrogated and spend the next year or more working under the imposed term sheets, the changes will have been so great, whatever they get down the road will not recoup what they are about to lose.
I cannot get wrapped up into what will or will not happen to the pilots.
If they fare better as a result, then good for them.
If they get abrogated because that's the path they chose, then they have to live with it.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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very wise, Hopeful
Hopeful
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Oh, I don't know....let's see.....the ECONOMY? 8.3% UNEMPLOYMENT?
What you or I or anyone else thinks does not matter.
Bob, I appreciate what you have tried to do for our craft. No one can ever dispute that and I will defend you vehemently on that issue.
But you seem to be living in LaLa Land with these visions of great unionism of decades gone by.
Unions are done in this country. Members have been behind you since you first held office. They respected and heeded your advice as you were knee deep in negotiations.
But no one will tell you to your face they are as mad as hell at you now that all your stragedies backfired. Even I tell them hindsight is 20/20.
No one will tell you to your face what they think of you NOW!
I don't know what people tell you in person about supporting the pilots, but the vibe is...well, I can't use expletives here.
It's over, Bob!
Bob Owens, on 23 August 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:
What would be the basis for not releasing the parties?
Oh, I don't know....let's see.....the ECONOMY? 8.3% UNEMPLOYMENT?
What you or I or anyone else thinks does not matter.
Bob, I appreciate what you have tried to do for our craft. No one can ever dispute that and I will defend you vehemently on that issue.
But you seem to be living in LaLa Land with these visions of great unionism of decades gone by.
Unions are done in this country. Members have been behind you since you first held office. They respected and heeded your advice as you were knee deep in negotiations.
But no one will tell you to your face they are as mad as hell at you now that all your stragedies backfired. Even I tell them hindsight is 20/20.
No one will tell you to your face what they think of you NOW!
I don't know what people tell you in person about supporting the pilots, but the vibe is...well, I can't use expletives here.
It's over, Bob!
Strike talk from American Airlines pilots hits the bottom line
Posted Thursday, Aug. 23, 2012
BY MIKE NORMAN
A strike vote by American Airlines pilots? Really?
Apparently so. The board of directors of the Allied Pilots Association, the union that represents 10,000 pilots at American, Wednesday ordered its officers to "make the necessary preparations to conduct a strike vote of the membership" if the airline gets approval from a federal bankruptcy judge and implements new contract terms.
How could the hotheads at APA be so foolish as to lay plans to defy a federal judge?
Well, it wouldn't be the first time. They apparently haven't learned from previous experience.
APA has a history of deliberately causing financial harm to American in attempts to get its way in contract negotiations. Even mentioning preparations for a strike vote, which may never be held and may not pass even if it is, can cut into American's revenues.
It makes potential customers a little nervous about booking flights, and companies think twice about signing contracts to put their employees on American's planes, when there's an even remotely possible strike on their minds.
American can fight back by accurately pointing out that federal law severely restricts strikes by airline employees, by assuring customers that its flights will go as planned, even by offering sale prices to lure customers back on board.
But doubt is a powerful thing, even if it's small.
"Unfortunately, the radical element that appears to be in control of the Allied Pilots Association seems determined to fly American Airlines into the side of a mountain, taking themselves, the company, their co-workers and their customers with them."
Those are the words of U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall of Dallas, delivered on Feb. 13, 1999. Some 2,500 of American's 10,500 pilots at the time called in sick during an 11-day protest against plans for combining pilot seniority lists after American bought Reno Air.
American said it had to cancel nearly 6,700 flights and lost $225 million because of the sickout.
Kendall ordered the pilots back to work, but they were slow to respond. He held APA and two of its top officers in contempt and ordered them to pay damages, eventually setting the total at $45.5 million
Clearly, this was one mad federal judge.
"It is this court's view that a minor labor dispute has been transformed into nothing more than a shakedown," Kendall said. "When the pitch is, 'pay us what we want or we will cost you more,' it is the type of negotiation one usually sees when doing business with one of the five families in New York," referring to organized crime.
Having to pay $45.5 million in damages would wipe out all of APA's assets, so the union fought Kendall's findings all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Meanwhile, passengers who had been stranded because of the canceled flights sued APA for more than $300 million in damages.
Union President Richard LaVoy lashed out at Kendall, saying he had a "hostile attitude." Who in his right mind picks a fight with a federal judge?
The Supreme Court sided with Kendall. Fortunately for APA, the passenger lawsuits eventually were tossed out.
The union ended up paying more than $20 million in damages to American.
Four years later, after the 9/11 attacks changed the airline industry forever, American wiped the remainder of APA's $45.5 million debt off the books during another round of contract negotiations.
Many of American's pilots will tell you they're fed up with misbehavior by the airline's executives. No doubt, the feeling is mutual.
What would be the basis for not releasing the parties?
Oh, I don't know....let's see.....the ECONOMY? 8.3% UNEMPLOYMENT?
What you or I or anyone else thinks does not matter.
Bob, I appreciate what you have tried to do for our craft. No one can ever dispute that and I will defend you vehemently on that issue.
But you seem to be living in LaLa Land with these visions of great unionism of decades gone by.
Unions are done in this country. Members have been behind you since you first held office. They respected and heeded your advice as you were knee deep in negotiations.
But no one will tell you to your face they are as mad as hell at you now that all your stragedies backfired. Even I tell them hindsight is 20/20.
No one will tell you to your face what they think of you NOW!
I don't know what people tell you in person about supporting the pilots, but the vibe is...well, I can't use expletives here.
It's over, Bob!
Strike talk from American Airlines pilots hits the bottom line
Posted Thursday, Aug. 23, 2012
BY MIKE NORMAN
A strike vote by American Airlines pilots? Really?
Apparently so. The board of directors of the Allied Pilots Association, the union that represents 10,000 pilots at American, Wednesday ordered its officers to "make the necessary preparations to conduct a strike vote of the membership" if the airline gets approval from a federal bankruptcy judge and implements new contract terms.
How could the hotheads at APA be so foolish as to lay plans to defy a federal judge?
Well, it wouldn't be the first time. They apparently haven't learned from previous experience.
APA has a history of deliberately causing financial harm to American in attempts to get its way in contract negotiations. Even mentioning preparations for a strike vote, which may never be held and may not pass even if it is, can cut into American's revenues.
It makes potential customers a little nervous about booking flights, and companies think twice about signing contracts to put their employees on American's planes, when there's an even remotely possible strike on their minds.
American can fight back by accurately pointing out that federal law severely restricts strikes by airline employees, by assuring customers that its flights will go as planned, even by offering sale prices to lure customers back on board.
But doubt is a powerful thing, even if it's small.
"Unfortunately, the radical element that appears to be in control of the Allied Pilots Association seems determined to fly American Airlines into the side of a mountain, taking themselves, the company, their co-workers and their customers with them."
Those are the words of U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall of Dallas, delivered on Feb. 13, 1999. Some 2,500 of American's 10,500 pilots at the time called in sick during an 11-day protest against plans for combining pilot seniority lists after American bought Reno Air.
American said it had to cancel nearly 6,700 flights and lost $225 million because of the sickout.
Kendall ordered the pilots back to work, but they were slow to respond. He held APA and two of its top officers in contempt and ordered them to pay damages, eventually setting the total at $45.5 million
Clearly, this was one mad federal judge.
"It is this court's view that a minor labor dispute has been transformed into nothing more than a shakedown," Kendall said. "When the pitch is, 'pay us what we want or we will cost you more,' it is the type of negotiation one usually sees when doing business with one of the five families in New York," referring to organized crime.
Having to pay $45.5 million in damages would wipe out all of APA's assets, so the union fought Kendall's findings all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Meanwhile, passengers who had been stranded because of the canceled flights sued APA for more than $300 million in damages.
Union President Richard LaVoy lashed out at Kendall, saying he had a "hostile attitude." Who in his right mind picks a fight with a federal judge?
The Supreme Court sided with Kendall. Fortunately for APA, the passenger lawsuits eventually were tossed out.
The union ended up paying more than $20 million in damages to American.
Four years later, after the 9/11 attacks changed the airline industry forever, American wiped the remainder of APA's $45.5 million debt off the books during another round of contract negotiations.
Many of American's pilots will tell you they're fed up with misbehavior by the airline's executives. No doubt, the feeling is mutual.
So I guess you can now change your alias to 'Hopeless".
Spirit was released last year when it was 8.9%.
When the Continental Pilots went on strike in 1983 unemployment was 9.6%,, APFA strike in 92 it was around 7.5%, when the AA pilots were released and went to a PEB in 97 it was only 4.9%. So it would seem that getting released has nothing to do with the unemployment rate but being allowed to actually strike may.
Lets face it we pretty much know that with capacity where it is they arent going to let any of the top three go on strike but getting released should be proceedural not political, the political recourse is the PEB, or having Congress impose if the PEB is rejected.
What you or I think doesnt matter? Perhaps you're right but thats a sad commentary on what we've allowed to happen to this country now isnt it?
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