Amfa Vs. Twu Debate

[Raptor]

8565 Total Signed Election Authorization Cards by Station and Title Group:
Updated, Sunday December 28, 2003 at 12:41:10 AM. Our goal is to obtain 60% of the Craft and Class of
Mechanic and Related, and at this time, our estimate of that number, with 'elbow room' is approximately 9,634 cards.
Using that number, at this time, we are about 88.9% to our goal, or approximately 53.3% of our Craft and Class. Good job so far, and let's
REDOUBLE our efforts and GET THIS DONE!

Hey if are highly paid TWU Leaders are afraid to face the membership at the Brady then this number will go up and up and up, it's almost over now Rusty I think Jake is going to get run over by another train and AMFA train

 

[jake]

TWU (MIS) informer.....
Dave, you mean someone might be using your tactics with more than one alias? Tell us, what happened to RV4? Did webmaster give you a little slap slap? or are you just being sneaky old Dave?


Raptor.....
Is that 53.3% similar to the 54% your cronies had at US Air? 'Cause if it is.....it ain't enough!!!
I am glad however that you guys have chosen to recognize that our International officials are, in your words "accountable to the membership". Nice to see that you've turned the corner. However that doesn't mean that our local members can't represent TWU's interests well in a debate forum, in fact they can. Have you forgotten where our leaders came from? They started as stewards and committee-men and they are all "volunteers", even as elected officials. Same can be said with our own local guys. TWU chooses not to sell their members short. Which is part of you AMFA boy's problem, you're still wanting someone else to fight your fight. It must be that you and your cronies are far too inept to problem solve on your own. You see, the TWU requires that sometimes we stand on our own two feet, I know that is asking a lot of you AMFA boys. If you guys aren't incapable of preparing yourselves then stand up, trust yourselves and be men about it. It has nothing to do with whether Art or Jim or Gary or whomever will or won't, it has everything to do with the members running their locals and being proficient enough to defend what they know to be the truth. You boys have been challenged....either put up or shut up! Looks like that AMFA train has square wheels.


Scorpian......
You fit right in the mold, brother! You posted my exact quote and you still don't get it. Can you put two and two together? I do know CIO, however we don't consult each other when we post. That said, if you or your bretheren AMFA pukes made an official request to one of our TWU offices prior to our challenge, then show it. Post it for the entire board to see. The fact is that while you guys were flapping your gums and beating your chests the TWU challeged you with an official letter. Now you're crying foul. Hey, we all get tired of hearing Don and Dave, I'll give you that but this is not about opinions, it 's about proof, bring it or get exposed.

 

[Calvin]

Mr. Informer, I am not a TWU advocate, I am a father making a living so my children attain the education level that I did not. I am no fool as you suggest either. Even through the concessions my children are all in school and doing quite well. I have no bass boat, no motorcycle, no fancy home. I have a family that I care about very much. I can not find work here that would pay what I am making now due to my lack of schooling and experience. I grew up in aviation as my father was a mechanic also. I went to no school. That is why I voted to keep AA my employer as long as possible. Why is it, as I stated earlier, when any one posts on this forum that disagrees with AMFA they are under suspicion? I do not feel responsible to relate to you why I am posting at what time. THank you

 

[TeamTWU]

ATTENTION ALL DISSIDENTS



Congratulations to you and your outspoken leaders for correctly defining what a dissident is according to Webster. He wrote in a recent article dissident is defined in the dictionary as; 1.) To sit apart. Disagree. 2.) Offer with an opinion or group. He also admits that the people in reference are in Fact A.M.F.A. supporters. My Question is do you know what the term unity means. Since this term is used in your campaign against the T.W.U., Let us print the definition for everyone to see; 1.) A being united, oneness. 2.) Harmony; Agreement. Now you tell me Mr. Dissident. Which is it going to be? Smart Union Members know the only way to succeed is to Unite. And your confusion on which method of Unionism is best is doing nothing but wasting time, which could be, spent educating and preparing members for the next contract.



You point out the problem in your own article but still fail to see it. It is true that the Majority of members did not vote in the recent officers elections, “that my friend is a direct result of the negative remarks you constantly make about the union. You see it doesn’t matter whether or not your International Union is called T.W.U or A.M.F.A. or Mickey Mouse fan club the strength comes in unity and numbers. How do you see your actions going towards the betterment of organized Labor? Or is it a fact that you were raised to consider only yourself when decision-making is needed on an issue." Punishment has been given to many children for being as inconsiderate of another person’s feelings and needs as your beliefs are.



Your Leader also refers to the last contract as an opportunity of a lifetime. I will admit that the profits being made were as good as you can get as far as pre-contract conditions, but let the membership take any blame for they are the ones who began splitting the ranks with yellow cards and negative literature. We the membership put the International in a position of not having 100 percent support. The conduct of dissidents is not bad when done in a positive way. But, the seeds of negative literature grows nothing but anti-union. Weak links in the chain of strength.



Next we need to again look at the “Majority Rulesâ€￾ he refers to skilled labor as the minority. And claims that by separation from fleet service skilled labor will be the majority. The truth is another division of strength will occur. Plus the skilled welders, machinists, platers and composite would then be the minority with A.M.F.A. Negotiating for A & P’s. Ask yourselves, will these groups then look for their own little union also. When A.M.F.A. goes on strike who will know if the worker crossing the picket line is a mechanic scab or just a machinists abiding by his little contract?



Let it be considered that if the majority does fall on the side of the dissidents as your leader says. Which one of them will be the leader with enough skills to repair the damage to the chain of strength? I have not seen one yet with the true Union beliefs. A true leader has the ability to disagree and seek change in a positive way that is not damaging to organized labor.

Thanks for Reading.



* Written a few years ago by Dave Stewart welder in Tulsa, OK. (Presently co-organizer of Amfa local 12)



Review what Amfa has accomplished at Northwest and United and you will see Dave is correct in his assessment of the last few years and the forecast for the future, if Amfa were to get in at AA. Will this be the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow? Or, the devastation of our lives-or jobs-or community and the continued slow death of our profession?



The Choice is clear; The TWU is the Best choice for our future!

 

[Raptor]

Jake, Delle is the one with all the proof we are not AMFA members we are merely AMFA supporters, I doubt that any of us AMFA supporters know everything that there is to know about AMFA and the same i'm sure is true of the TWU supporters but the officers at the top know all the facts and figures, that is probably why they are at the top and we are at the bottom
As me and many others have stated I don't think anyone is opposed to any type of debate we think some debates are much more interesting and productive than others but that does not mean that we are opposed to it, I have no problem with there being two debates or more if that is what the members want, and I agree with you that the two debates have nothing in common they are completly different, which is why I made the statement that there is no first or second challenge since two entirely different entities are challenging there is no first or second, Delle has made a challenge to Sonny hall or whoever he picks to take his place he did not challenge TWU supporters, Delle is not an AMFA supporter he is the Director of AMFA, we AMFA supporters are not Delle we are us, Team TWU did not challenge Delle to a debate you challenged the AMFA supporters to a debate, as you can see the two debate challenges are completly different and they have nothing to do with each other, if Sonny Hall chooses to not accept the debate or pick a substitute then that is a reflection on the TWU Leadership and they will have to accept the ridicule that comes with being afraid to defend the Union that they preside over, if it happens that no AMFA supporters are willing to accept the challenge from the TWU supporters then it will be us TWU AMFA supporters that will have to accept the ridicule from team twu, that is pretty much how things are, maybe there will be two debates maybe there will be none, all I know for sure is that Delle will be at the Brady Theater telling AA Mechanics why AMFA is better than the TWU and why they should sign a card and vote AMFA, if nobody from the TWU is there to oppose this then it will be a nice AMFA informational meeting.
I would like to see a debate because we have not heard from the TWU Leadership since this concession was signed, but if they do not want to show up then there is nothing anyone can do to force them to show, I enjoy hearing Delle speak so it will be worth my time to be at the Brady theater whether the TWU shows or not and I think the same will be true for most everybody else, when Delle came to Tulsa in Sep. to speak all three meeting were packed to capacity, I don't think to many people will show for the Mechanic debate just as they don't show for Union meetings or AMFA informational meetings when someone like Delle is not speaking.

So my suggestion for you Jake is one watch out for trains Rusty had a dog run over by one, and two go to whichever debate/meeting that you are the most interested in that goes for everyone else on this board, as for me I will only be at the Brady theater meeting as that is where the speakers that I want to hear will be speaking.

Is that fair enough Team TWU or do you have a problem with that.

 

[TWU informer]

Only thing I can say about the 1989 "Dave Stewart" Letter of a few years back. 14 years to be exact.


STUPID IS, AS STUPID DOES

Just goes to show, even the most blind of the sheep can see the truth, come to understand the Railway Labor Act, and after years of TWU Concessions, and failure of the TWU to respond to membership demands for change see the light.

If Dave Stewart can become informed and change, then not one TWU advocate is immune, including the entire TEAM TWU.

Anybody doubt what Dave Stewart thinks today? Bring that letter to the Brady Theater on January 17th, ask him for yourself, he will gladly give you run down on his dealings with the TWU.

Thanks TEAM TWU, your organziing tools are most helpful.

 

[Calvin]

How do I post a picture under my name, any help appreciated. Thank you

 

[Raptor]

Calvin mouse click on your name when you get to your personal screen go to avatar there is where you can pick a picture to be under your name.

 

[Bob Owens]

And your confusion on which method of Unionism is best is doing nothing but wasting time, which could be, spent educating and preparing members for the next contract.

Ok, exactly what type of unionism is best? Getting AMFA is the first step towards preparing for the next contract. We have seen for the last twenty years what the TWU could do.


You point out the problem in your own article but still fail to see it. It is true that the Majority of members did not vote in the recent officers elections, “that my friend is a direct result of the negative remarks you constantly make about the union.

One mans negative remarks caused thousands of dues paying members to not vote? Could it be that many of them have become so disenchanted with the Locals performance that they could not be bothered? Dont you think that if thelocal was doing a good job that they would dismiss the negative comments of one individual?

You see it doesn’t matter whether or not your International Union is called T.W.U or A.M.F.A. or Mickey Mouse fan club the strength comes in unity and numbers.

OK since it doesnt matter to you, but it does to over 8500 of the rest of us then why dont you fill out a card, since after all ,it does not matter?

How do you see your actions going towards the betterment of organized Labor?


And how can you see the TWUs track record at AA as a positive trend for organized labor. 20 years of concessions!!!


Your Leader also refers to the last contract as an opportunity of a lifetime. I will admit that the profits being made were as good as you can get as far as pre-contract conditions, but let the membership take any blame for they are the ones who began splitting the ranks with yellow cards and negative literature.

Nothing is ever the fault of the TWU even though they have complete control over the contract and never called upon the members to do anything to resist our decline. Time after time the TWU said "Buy it" and the members did as their union told them to do yet, having followed their leaders advice, when the revelation occurs and it is shown to be a bad deal the leadership says "You guys voted for it".

No union ever automatically ever had 100% support and a union that tells its members to vote for a bad deal then later blames the members for voting for it does not deserve ANY support. They should be thrown out! Tell us, how do we throw out Hall, Little & co.? ANSWER-Vote out the entire organization-VOTE AMFA and the AGW.

A true leader has the ability to disagree and seek change in a positive way that is not damaging to organized labor.

Nothing could be more damaging to organized labor than having people like Sonny Hall and Jim Little, both company men, in charge of a union. Intolerant, ineffective, evasive, dishonest union leaders like Hall and Little give anti union people all the ammo they need to form build public sentiment against unions. They lavish themselves with excessive salaries and perks while selling out their members. The TWU/ATD does more to damage organized labor than all the professional union busters combined.

Tell us how these two clowns have demonstrated their ability to disagree or to seek change in a positive way.

Review what Amfa has accomplished at Northwest and United and you will see Dave is correct in his assessment of the last few years and the forecast for the future, if Amfa were to get in at AA. Will this be the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow? Or, the devastation of our lives-or jobs-or community and the continued slow death of our profession?

Nobody is promising a pot of gold. What AMFA seeks is to unite all of our class and craft into one union. No one, including Sonny Hall has disagreed with the concept of uniting airline workers across the industry. The difference is that we seek to make it happen and not sit back and say that its all the members fault that all these unions cant get their acts together and stop our decline. They had twenty years to do something, more than ample time, and they have failed. We are right to go and try something new. If you want to see the slow death of our profession simply dig up the April 13, 2003 edition of the Tulsa World, pg A29 and you will see just that. In that ad you will see the performance of the TWU at AA.

The Choice is clear; The TWU is the Best choice for our future!

The TWU is the choice for NO future.

To choose the TWU is to choose to remain with a union that is only concerned with getting more members, not getting more for the members.

To choose the TWU is to choose to remain with an organization that has failed us for 20 years.

To choose the TWU is to choose to continue to decline.

To choose the TWU is to choose to stay seperate from other mechanics throughout the industry.

To choose the TWU is to choose to allow unelected dictators to determine what is best for you.

AMFA is the only organization that seeks to unite all of our class and craft under one banner.

AMFA is the only organization that will allow mechanics to determine what is good for mechanics.

AMFA is the only union that allows us to vote on who will lead us.

AMFA is the only union that can offer us hope for a better future.

The choice is between the TWU that can offer us more of what they have given over the last twenty years (concessions and decline) or AMFA, a union that believes in increasing the status, recognotion and compensation of our class and craft.

 

[Buck]

One mans negative remarks caused thousands of dues paying members to not vote?

According to the Renaissance Hotel, where the TWU-TWU debate will be held on January 15, 2003 there will be only room for 250 members. When you have saved 10,000 jobs as the TWU has done, where are they going to fit?

 

[scorpian]

Scorpian......
You fit right in the mold, brother! You posted my exact quote and you still don't get it. Can you put two and two together? I do know CIO, however we don't consult each other when we post.

jake
you sure got your panties in a wad so let me splane sumpin to ya. The point I made and you didn't get is that the issue on who called the debate first has went both ways on the twu's part. I don't care who called it first. As Raptor has posted allready these are two entirely different challenges therefore its a mute point. GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I asked a fence straddler today which debate he would be interested in going to and his reply to the twu's debate was to roll his eyes and look up but the proposition of seeing Delle and sonny got his attention.

 

[Calvin]

Thank you Raptor.

 

[Calvin]

Buck, maybe they have taken in account the % of membership that shows an interest in any union activity. I admit sir, I am one of them. If it was not for a fellow mechanic asking me to visit this website I would be no more involved than the next guy. My friend is an avid AMFA advocate, though we agree to disagree.

Good thought. How will AMFA go about raising the union participation? My steward seems to be up on all the issues as I am not, though I am way to busy with daily life, e.g. kids, farm, job, to actively participate. I have to , and do, place my trust in my locally elected officials. Am I wrong for doing this and if so how will AMFA's name change this? Thank you all.

 

[Raptor]

8565 Total Signed Election Authorization Cards by Station and Title Group:
Updated, Sunday December 28, 2003 at 12:41:10 AM. Our goal is to obtain 60% of the Craft and Class of
Mechanic and Related, and at this time, our estimate of that number, with 'elbow room' is approximately 9,634 cards.
Using that number, at this time, we are about 88.9% to our goal, or approximately 53.3% of our Craft and Class. Good job so far, and let's
REDOUBLE our efforts and GET THIS DONE!

Hey if are highly paid TWU Leaders are afraid to face the membership at the Brady then this number will go up and up and up, it's almost over now Rusty I think Jake is going to get run over by another train and AMFA train

you know that if we get 55% by March 17 that will be 640 cards more than what we need, that will be plenty of buffer in case the TWU tries to throw in any title groups that are not presently part of our craft and class.

that is only 1.7 % more than what we currently have, I think our percentage will go way up when No TWU Leader can be found at the Brady theater, I personally saw two new cards signed today over this Mechanic debate farse.

 

[Raptor]

One last thing Calvin many of us have been canvasing the base asking Mechanics from both sides if they would be interested in coming to a Mechanic debate, and guess what were not finding any interested parties, if there is very little interest from the floor in seeing a Mechanic debate you can understand why the AMFA supporters might not be interested, if no one is going to be there then what would be the point in showing up, we are out to get cards to hold an election at the present time, and if a Mechanic debate that no one is interested in is not going to further that cause, then once again what would be the point.