Amfa Vs. Twu Debate

[TeamTWU]

Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.

Hello Mr. Shalk...the TWU is the union, we do not need to call for an election.

 

[Bob Owens]

Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.

Hello Mr. Shalk...the TWU is the union, we do not need to call for an election.

]

There is only one member on payroll that was given the opportunity to vote for the TWU.

That is Al Blackman of JFK, AND HE WANTS ANOTHER VOTE!!!

HE FILLED OUT AN AMFA CARD!!


So of all the people who voted in the election in 1946, 100% of those that remain want the opportunity to have another vote.

One of the basic princeples of Democracy is periodic elections. Representatives are not elected for life. They must periodically get re-elected. The intent is that no-one or nothing put in place in a previous era can impose itself on the next generation without the expressed majority consent of the people. Laws and the Constitution are all subject to change if such change is the will of the people. Representatives must constantly represent the will of the people or they will be replaced by the people. Jim Little, Sonny Hall, Bobby Gless and Gary Yignst are all said to be our representatives, yet we never get the opportunity to vote for or against any of them. So in fact they are not our representatives, they are the Internationals representatives. The members are never given the opportunity to vote for International officers.


The TWU does not believe in such ideals. The TWU feels that the members should not be given the freedom and responsibility of self government. This is obvious from its very structure and the policies of the TWU.



" Hello Mr. Shalk...the TWU is the union, we do not need to call for an election."


For now it is. But not for long. Sooner or later the people will be allowed to speak.

 

[1AA]

Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.

Hello Mr. Shalk...the TWU is the union, we do not need to call for an election.

Nice spin on the photo.
You obviously do not know the history of this photo.
Let me give you some quick info on this photo.
This was a rally in Washington D.C. that the AMFA was trying to protect our jobs from going overseas. Yes OUR JOBS not just NWA!!
The AMFA asked for full participation in fighting to keep our jobs. The all mighty TWU said it is not our fight. But guess what happened a year later.....
The all mighty TWU and IAM all of a sudden started knocking on the governments door on the very same issue that the AMFA was asking them to do a year earlier.
This was just another TWU follow the leader. Again the TWU failed to take control and make good.
Before you make a spin on outsourcing, don't tell me that we have more work in house than all the majors. We have domestic, inhouse outsourcing.
It's another TWU first, THE O.S.M.
Minimum pay for minimum benefits... Uhm??? Sounds familiar??? :down

The next time you post a photo make sure you don't edit it. This is the actual photo. Nice try though..... B)

 

[Calvin]

This was a rally in Washington D.C. that the AMFA was trying to protect our jobs from going overseas

Another good point made, if AMFA is not AFL-CIO then how do they gain effectiveness in lobbying? Or do they not see any reason to have a voice in Washington? Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

 

[TWU informer]

Another good point made, if AMFA is not AFL-CIO then how do they gain effectiveness in lobbying? Or do they not see any reason to have a voice in Washington? Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

Did the AFL-CIO affilitation stop the TWU Local 514 jobs at ZEBCO jobs from going to China? Did the AFL-CIO affiliation stop the PATCO Air Traffic Controllers form termination and scab replacement? Did the AFL-CIO affilitaion stop Lorenzo from destroying Eastern Airline jobs? Did the AFL-CIO affilitaion stop NAFTA, GATT, or most favored nation trade status with China? How is that long awaited AFL-CIO lobbied STRIKER REPLACEMENT BILL anyway, did it pass Congress?

All of these and more answer a big fat NO!

Your belief that AFL-CIO affiliation leads to the promiised land and/or some form of worker protection does NOT match up with the documented historical facts!

 

[Bob Owens]

Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

Does the TWU have a political Party?

They claim they do not. I was at the TWU COPE Conference where they insisted that. You may want to contact Peggy Olstien before you answer.


A couple of years back I was attending a class at the Meany Institute, one of the few plusses of being in the TWU. At the same time Mike McIntosh, who has since become a shop steward in MIA was attending an AFL-CIO Grassroots class. As part of the class they were to go to DC and Lobby. I went along for the ride since my class finished early.

One of our stops was at NY Congressman Charles Rangals office, a staunch "Liberal" or at least thats what he claimed to be. Rep Rangal is supported by the TWU International and was prominently featured at the 2001 Convention as "a friend of labor".

This was shortly after Rep Rangal voted "FOR" expanded trade with China. Shortly after on the news when asked if he was worried about a possible backlash from labor for his Yea vote for more trade with China he replied "Not really, what are they going to do about it vote Republican ha,ha,ha". This was prior to the 2001 Convention where he was still being hailed as "a friend of labor".

Upon arriving at his office Mike and I signed in, identified ourselves as from the TWU and asked to speak to him. We could see him sitting at his desk eating.

They said "speak to him in reference to what?".

I said "His yes vote on free trade to China."

At which point the attitude visably changed and she said "Ok, "John" will talk to you about that , the Congressman is busy now".

I replied " I see, ok".

With that a tall man, about 6'4" came out, asked me who I was and where I was from and what exactly about the bill did I want to discuss.

I said; " I wanted hear why Rep Rangel whould vote for a bill that would impact his constituancy so badly. After all the first jobs to go will be low skilled jobs. His district is a low income area where the majority of his people work such jobs."

He replied: "What industry are you in?"

I said; "The Airlines."

He said: "Well what do you care, this bill will likely help the airlines because there will be more commerce between the two countries."

I was floored by this. I said, in heightened volume " WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHAT DO I CARE? WHAT WILL BE GOING OVER THERE IS THE JOBS OF MY NEIGHBORS!! DO YOU THINK A FEW BUSNISSEMEN FLYING OVER TO CHINA TO MOVE ALL THE JOBS OVER THERE IS GOING TO HELP US IN THE LONG RUN? IF THIS IS THE ATTITUDE OF REP RANGAL THEN HE NOT ONLY IS NOT REPRESENTING HIS PEOPLE HE IS BETRAYING HIS COUNTRY! REP RANGAL IS TOUTING HIMSELF AS A FRIEND OF LABOR AND AN ATTITUDE SUCH AS "WHAT DO YOU CARE" COMING OUT OF HIS OFFICE IS A DISGRACE!!!

He then cut me off as three young pages slipped past us with eyes wide open , food trays in hand and scurried down the hall. He said that he had an appointment and could no longer discuss the issue.

Mike and I then went up to Rep Carolyn McCarthy, went through the same routine with some major exceptions, coincidentally the pages that left Rep Rangals office were in Rep McCarthys office. Mrs McCrathy met with us face to face. I told her that we had just come from Rep Rangals office and the discussion that we just had. She agreed and said that she was perplexed by Rep Rangals sudden change from No to Yea. Our reception and discussion with her was comfortable and reassuring.

The point is that the best way to influence polititions is face to face. If they refuse to meet with you they are uninterested in your veiws. Similar to the heirarchy of the TWU. The TWU supports people like Rep Rangal who let labor down on key issues that effect all workers simply because they help these leaders fight issues such as a more detailed LM-2.

I agree with the concept of a politically active labor organization. I believe that it is critical to its long term success. While I agree that highly funded special interest thwart Democracy as long as business is allowed to use their money and power to influence politics labor organizations must do the same.

The problem is that while big business owns both parties, labor is satified with a minority stake in one of them. As a result we only get partial support. Charles Rangal is a perfect example.

Labor needs its own party. The TWU and the AFL-CIO would rather maintain the status quo, since it provides them with another way to deflect blame, than do what needs to be done. They have no real excuse, our dues have provided them the resources, but they would rather use those dues for office space on Broadway($900,000), cars for International officers($345,000) and exhorbitant salaries ($200,000) than spend them trying to improve the conditions of working people.

 

[TWU informer]

Is Peggy elected?

Can she be re-called?

 

[Rusty]

Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.

Hello Mr. Shalk...the TWU is the union, we do not need to call for an election.

Well there you have it. Just another lying deceiving piece of crap you are TeamTWU.

Busted again!!!

I wondered why the picture looked hacked up. Thanks 1AA for exposing them once again.

/index.php...e=post&id=94474

 

[Buck]

This was a rally in Washington D.C. that the AMFA was trying to protect our jobs from going overseas

Another good point made, if AMFA is not AFL-CIO then how do they gain effectiveness in lobbying? Or do they not see any reason to have a voice in Washington? Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

And I again will ask the TWU Team of supporters, what has the AFL-CIO done for the mechanic and related craft and class in the airline industry?

What has the AFL-CIO done for labor in the last twenty years? If you can answer wiht facts, I will listen. Do not answer with what has AMFA done.

The TWU Team has never answered these questions nor answered why they only secured a debate room for 250 members.

The TWU's so called voice in Washington has yet to yield any benefits for the mechanic craft and class. Be careful with your answers, the research is available to all.

 

[Calvin]

• One of the basic principles of Democracy is periodic elections. This seems a little overboard. I personally would not want to vote for another union at every disgruntlement.
• Are you stating that being affiliated with the AFL-CIO is not good for the membership? Outsourcing is not a disease known only to AA. Without unions banding together to lobby we'll not have a chance, will we win every fight, no, but if we do not fight we let big business write our financial future.

Just my opinion, but I see no reason to bring a vote for AMFA. Thank you

*added by me How the AFL-CIO works found this online, might answer some questions concerning he AFL-CIO

 

[Bob Owens]

[
[Well there you have it. Just another lying deceiving piece of crap you are TeamTWU.

Busted again!!!

I wondered why the picture looked hacked up. Thanks 1AA for exposing them once again.

/index.php...e=post&id=94474

In all fairness both sides have altered images.

Besides it was easy to expose the lie.

 

[Buck]

One of the basic principles of Democracy is periodic elections. This seems a little overboard. I personally would not want to vote for another union at every disgruntlement.

Basic democracy a little overboard? Is this what the TWU fears?

How about voting for another union after twenty years of concessions that has produced this disgruntlement?

Are you stating that being affiliated with the AFL-CIO is not good for the membership? Outsourcing is not a disease known only to AA. Without unions banding together to lobby we'll not have a chance, will we win every fight, no, but if we do not fight we let big business write our financial future.

No I never said that. What I asked was what have they accomplished for the mechanic and related craft and class in the last twenty years.

Where has the banded unions been in the past twenty years.

How about I fuel the fire? Where were the banded unions when Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers.

Those of you who stand behind the banner of the affiliation of raw unionism of the AFL-CIO are gaining nothing but division. Until real unionism, where unions stand together again and the membership is not sold out by the very representitive they pay dues to, conspires with the companies for the companies view of unionism, your dream of solidarity is gone.

I have looked at the AFL-CIrg web page and many others. That still does not aswer the question of where has the solidarity gone.

 

[Bob Owens]

• One of the basic principles of Democracy is periodic elections. This seems a little overboard. I personally would not want to vote for another union at every disgruntlement.
  
  
  
  
• Are you stating that being affiliated with the AFL-CIO is not good for the membership? Outsourcing is not a disease known only to AA. Without unions banding together to lobby we'll not have a chance, will we win every fight, no, but if we do not fight we let big business write our financial future.

Just my opinion, but I see no reason to bring a vote for AMFA. Thank you

*added by me How the AFL-CIO works found this online, might answer some questions concerning he AFL-CIO

This seems a little overboard. I personally would not want to vote for another union at every disgruntlement.


Voting every 58 years is a little overboard?


Are you stating that being affiliated with the AFL-CIO is not good for the membership?[/b]

No. I'm stating that affiliation with the AFL CIO is not a good enough reason to stay with a union that has brought back concessions for 20 years. The AFL-CIO is a valuable tool, but like any other tool it is the hand that wields it that determines how effective it is.


Outsourcing is not a disease known only to AA. Without unions banding together to lobby we'll not have a chance, will we win every fight, no, but if we do not fight we let big business write our financial future.
[/LIST]Just my opinion, but I see no reason to bring a vote for AMFA. Thank you

How many different Pilots unions are there in the AFL-CIO? Are you saying that the ALPA has been ineffective at gaining good wages and benifits for their members simply because the Pilots are not split up among several different unions that will represent anybody willing to pay dues? Do you believe that workers are stronger when they are split up or when they are all in one union? When have all these union ever "banded" together effectively? They had their chance, in fact Jim Little demanded that I retract my statement that all of us should band together and shut down the whole industry the second one labor agreement is abrogated by a judge. When is the last time these unions ever banded together and fought? Did they do anything to support PATCO? The Longshoremen? The Grocery workers in CA?

 

[Bob Owens]

I have looked at the AFL-CIrg web page and many others. That still does not aswer the question of where has the solidarity gone.

The SEIU put out an essay titled "United We Win"

It touches upon the issue of catch all/any unions and their inability to form effective unions or get the members good contracts.

The SEIU is the biggest Union in the country, they and a few other unions are desperately trying to save the labor movement from the "old guard".

One of the SEIU organizers, who worked for the AFL-CIO even said to me that we are better off to try and leave organizations like the IAM,TWU and IBT, reorganize outside the AFL-CIO then petition to go back in as industry/craft focused unions like the ALPA and scores of other unions. He agreed that the track record in the airline industry of the TWU,IAM and IBT is dismal. All three union blame the members.

http://www.twu562.org/unitedwewin.html

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Just my opinion, but I see no reason to bring a vote for AMFA. Thank you


Calvin, what will it take for you to want to bring a vote for better representation? Are you not tired of lies and ineptness and greed yet? If you aren't I must say you are either blind or on the twu gravy train of selling out your profession. The time has come to protect our craft and class with a DEMOCRATIC, CRAFT UNION!