Amfa Vs. Twu Debate

[1AA]

[
[Well there you have it. Just another lying deceiving piece of crap you are TeamTWU.

Busted again!!!

I wondered why the picture looked hacked up. Thanks 1AA for exposing them once again.

/index.php...e=post&id=94474

In all fairness both sides have altered images.

Besides it was easy to expose the lie.

I can assure you that the Image I posted was not altered. I received it from a good reliable individual who is PRO AMT. Unless you meant that it was altered in another way I must have missed something.
B)

 

[Buck]

Thanks Bob Owens for enlightening me on further uses of the AFL-CIO.
I will admit that wielded properly the solidarity of all unions can be a powerful tool.

 

[Bob Owens]

[
[Well there you have it. Just another lying deceiving piece of crap you are TeamTWU.

Busted again!!!

I wondered why the picture looked hacked up. Thanks 1AA for exposing them once again.

/index.php...e=post&id=94474

In all fairness both sides have altered images.

Besides it was easy to expose the lie.

I can assure you that the Image I posted was not altered. I received it from a good reliable individual who is PRO AMT. Unless you meant that it was altered in another way I must have missed something.
B)

No I meant that there have been other images that were altered by people on both sides of the debate.

 

[1AA]

This was a rally in Washington D.C. that the AMFA was trying to protect our jobs from going overseas

Another good point made, if AMFA is not AFL-CIO then how do they gain effectiveness in lobbying? Or do they not see any reason to have a voice in Washington? Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

Ask yourself how affective has the AFL-CIO been in the labor movement?
Ask yourself why is the AFL-CIO boosting their image and not protecting jobs?
Ask yourself why the Carpenters Union in NYC left the AFL-CIO?

 

[Bob Owens]

This was a rally in Washington D.C. that the AMFA was trying to protect our jobs from going overseas

Another good point made, if AMFA is not AFL-CIO then how do they gain effectiveness in lobbying? Or do they not see any reason to have a voice in Washington? Does AMFA have a political party? If so , what is it? Thank You

Ask yourself how affective has the AFL-CIO been in the labor movement?
Ask yourself why is the AFL-CIO boosting their image and not protecting jobs?
Ask yourself why the Carpenters Union in NYC left the AFL-CIO?

The question is what should be expected from the AFL-CIO? What is it meant for and what are its capabilities.

The AFL-CIO can not dictate to member union how they run their Locals.

Member unions can and do often opt to leave if they do not agree with the stated goals of the association. They dont have to go for a vote to leave, just to get accepted. Rarely are unions refused acceptance, when it does happen it is either because of criminal activity, or one union is only willing to associate on its own terms, such as if a the APA applied, the ALPA might oppose it and though some dealmaking block them from entry. So much for Solidarity. Solidarity but only if you submit to our will.

It must be remembered that the AFL-CIO is not monolithic. It has many competing interests and ideologies. Unfortunately those who believe in appeasement and concessions have had, and continue to have the upper hand. For the most part these unions are led by leaders with a limited education and no real ideology other than consolidating wealth and power for themselves as the ULICO scandal revealed. There is hope, however our numbers do not help the reformers, they help the sellouts. The best thing that we could do to help the labor movement is go to AMFA, continue consolidation of our class and craft and assist our coworkers in their efforts to do the same. If you noticed the AFL-CIO has not really shown solid support for Sonny Hall and the TWU. However I dont doubt that soon they may be forced politically to do so.

The movement of AA mechanics and other ground workers out of the TWU will at the same time weaken the old guards grip on power within the AFL-CIO and strengthen the reform movement throughout the labor movement.

The vote at AA is a big deal.

It will either help keep the old guard, who believe in appeasement and concessions while delivering hollow speaches about fighting and union power, in power or help bring forth the long delayed and much needed reform movement.

Some unions realize how unions like the TWU, that look at revenue to the union as the determining factor instead of improving the lives of its members in setting union policy is destroying the labor movement. A classic example of how screwed up the TWU is that they spent $2 million trying to organize workers at Delta. What could they promise Delta workers. We can get you pay and benifits cuts while you give 2 hours pay month to an organization that you have no control over. You wont own your contract-the International will, you wont negotiate your contract- the international will, and you wont even get to vote on who gets into the International. All any Delta worker had to do was go and talk to an AA worker about the TWU and it was over. In their self delusion they actually thought they could get Delta to join the TWU! And they spent $2 miilion of our dues to do it!

Some unions realize that the most important thing that workers want out of a union is better pay and benifits. If you dont get that then why have a union? A voice? A voice on what? The TWU has been negotiating concessions for 20 years. Unions fight against concessions. When has the TWU ever told us to fight concession?

With this track record, industry leading concessions, and the fact that when Delta fired a TWU organizer the TWU did squat, why would Delta or other non-union workers want a union like the TWU?

 

[Calvin]

It will either help keep the old guard, who believe in appeasement and concessions while delivering hollow speaches about fighting and union power, in power or help bring forth the long delayed and much needed reform movement.


Are you suggesting Mr. Owens that if AMFA obtains power of bargaining agent that our masses will change in believing a job is better than a furlough? So far all I have read here is anti-union, anti-AFL-CIO. I am not the best read but I do believe our floor, the "old guard", will continue to do what is best for their families, and that is keeping a company open for business.
I do not believe AMFA or any other new union is the answer to our industry's economic downfall.
I do agree we, the unions, missed the boat not going out with PATCO 100%, we had the opportunity to shut this nation down but did nothing. BTW, where was AMFA when PATCO went out?
Also, after reading a lot of the posts from AMFA motivators, let me make it known I am not being paid money, nor hold office of any kind. My limited knowledge of AMFA should prove that to be true, I just do not like what I see with the AMFA reps.

Thank you, and again this is simply my opinion.

 

[Raptor]

Calvin have you ever met an AMFA represenative you say you don't like them but, I am not sure you have ever met one, you do of course know that there are NO AMFA reps at AA we are all TWU members some of us are AMFA supporters but none of us are reps of AMFA or the TWU as we are just Mechanics and can only represent ourselves, which brings me to the AMFA / TWU debate on Jan 17 where there will be an AMFA rep. his name is Delle and after you hear him you just might like him, also there is still a slim chance that a TWU rep. from the International may show up.
so lets go hear what the represenatives of the two Union have to say.

 

[Bob Owens]

Also, after reading a lot of the posts from AMFA motivators, let me make it known I am not being paid money, nor hold office of any kind. My limited knowledge of AMFA should prove that to be true, I just do not like what I see with the AMFA reps.

Thank you, and again this is simply my opinion.

Are you suggesting Mr. Owens that if AMFA obtains power of bargaining agent that our masses will change in believing a job is better than a furlough? So far all I have read here is anti-union, anti-AFL-CIO. I am not the best read but I do believe our floor, the "old guard", will continue to do what is best for their families, and that is keeping a company open for business.


I have no doubt that the "old guard will continue to do what is best for their families, it is our families that I am concerned about, not the old guards making six figure incomes off our dues. Are you trying to imply that unions do not offer us the power to fight against concessions? Are you saying that if airline workers across the industry refused to be bullied into concessions and stood together that they would have allowed UAL,AMR, and USAIR, more than half the countrys capacity, to cease to operate because they wer not profitable? When is the last time AMTRACk was profitable. Profitable or not certain industries are essential, while any one company is likely to be expendable industry experts estimated that it would take at least two years before the reamaining carriers could pick up service should any one of the airlines cease to operate. AA is the biggest of all the airlines, if Bush would not allow the Mechanics to strike at UAL or NWA and Clinton prevented the pilots from striking seven years ago because of the impact that such an interuption to commerce would cause then what makes you think that they could allow them to all cease to exist? The fact is keeping these companies in business is the responsibility of those who run them and the government. The unions job is to protect us, not to make us bear the financial burden of mismanagement. And that is exactly what this union has done. They have taken away 25% of our compensation for an extended period of time so AA can continue to buy new airplanes-that will cost us jobs because they need less maint, and build more new terminals. Why do we have to work for $6/hr less than the LOW COST competitor SWA? Dont say overhaul, those facilities were paid for a long time ago and even before the concessions our in house labor costs on an hourly averge were not only competative but it offered the company better quality control and aircraft utilization.

I do not believe AMFA or any other new union is the answer to our industry's economic downfall.

The economic downfall? Do you mean the most recent economic cycle? I doubt the industry is or was going to collapse and dissappear. Sept 11? Check the numbers pal, the load factor between the four planes used in the attacks was 25%. The industry was already in a tailspin due to systemwide mismagement and overcapacity. Typical mistake for many industries. The fact is that our decline has been consistant since 1983, with the exception of the AMFA spike. For most of the years between 1983 and the present the industry has been profitable. Between 1994 and 2001 they set record profits quarter after quarter,year after year. They had so much money that they decided to buy back $2billion of their own stock and buy TWA along with a $7billion expansion plan.In 1995 the TWU pushed a 6 year concessionary contract despite the companies profitability. So what was the excuse there? or the three contracts that preceeded it? What is the excuse for the fact that despite the fact that since deregulation the airlines have been more profitable than ever before but the workers standards of living have been declining steadily for 20 years? I know. you are out of answers so here it comes "The members ratified all those concessionary contracts". UNACCEPATBLE- The members never accepted a contract against the advice of the union. If a new union is not the answer then tell us how the old unions are. Jim Little told our members flat out "Never reject a tentative agreement because the company will never give any more than what is on the table". Is that what you call a union leader? If that is what they believe then they have no business being in that position.

I do agree we, the unions, missed the boat not going out with PATCO 100%, we had the opportunity to shut this nation down but did nothing. BTW, where was AMFA when PATCO went out?

Did AMFA cross PATCOs picket lines? Was AMFA requested to help out the AFL-CIO affiliated union after the AFL-CIO turned their back on them? The fact is that these old unions like the TWU that are run by people like Sonny Hall who make over $200,000 a year do not see the urgency that we do. They do not care. They got theirs. Last May I endured Mike Bakalas tirade about how everything is the fault of the members but noit the leaders. But I cant recall the leaders ever asking the members to fight where the members failed to do so. The fact is we need change, the only way to get change is to get rid of the TWU, this in turn will weaken Sonny and the rest of the crooked, corrupt self serving greedy old do nothings that control the TWU. It will allow the TWU to be taken back by the transit workers and it will allow us to pursue a path that will unite all aircraft mechanics under one banner. Hopefully other workers will follow the lead and go to the AGW and we can form a more effective partnership between all airline workers.

 

[TWU informer]

Are you suggesting Mr. Owens that if AMFA obtains power of bargaining agent that our masses will change in believing a job is better than a furlough? So far all I have read here is anti-union, anti-AFL-CIO. I am not the best read but I do believe our floor, the "old guard", will continue to do what is best for their families, and that is keeping a company open for business.

How can you honestly claim that saving all the jobs while having an extremely over head count work force showing up for work and receving pay/benefits is the way to keep a company open for business? Where did you get your business degree? Is that what ECLAT told you?

Look around the floor you fool. There are people still on their asses with no work!

What part of "that will sink a company" faster than a bad economy do you not understand?

AA Human resources disclosed to crew chiefs in the recent PPC Discipline Training that AA is still extremely over manned. This was in response to a crew chief's question about what he was supposed to make his crew get busy doing, when there is NO WORK!

You might have saved all of the jobs, but people working for pay/benefits with nothing to produce will take this airline under.

If AA continues to allow TEAM TWU to decide how best to save an airline, we will all be without a decent job in the long term.

At least NWA made a profit. And profit is where the long term survival is.

Proof of survival ability is on Wall Street, in finance ratings, and investment worth, not in your "TWU jobs saved score sheet". And NWA is far better off than AA in the score sheet that matters.

 

[TWU informer]

Received: 12/28/03 0859 EST
Name: mojo13
E-Mail:
Employer: AA
Location: MCI
Message:
TWU CHALLENGES AMFA TO DEBATE
AMFA Responds By Asking for Alternative Debate

On Monday, December 22, at 4pm, the TWU faxed a debate challenge to AMFA’s headquarters in Laconia, New Hampshire. Rather than accepting the TWU’s challenge, AMFA responded three hours later by proposing an alternative debate to be held two days after the debate hosted by the TWU.

There will only be one day of debates. On Thursday, January 15, at the Renaissance Hotel in Tulsa, TEAM TWU will have a panel of rank and file leaders who will make the case for sticking with our union. We are still waiting to hear whether AMFA is ready to step up to the plate and have their rank and file leaders show up and debate on January 15.

TEAM TWU decided to propose a debate with rank and file leaders because we are the ones who need to debate and decide which organization – the TWU or AMFA – is best able to represent us in the future. Our local leaders are best equipped to debate how we can protect our jobs and improve our wages and benefits in the years to come.

AMFA wants a format with its national director, O.V Delle-Femine, debating Sonny Hall. We reject this proposal because we are not about to let a bureaucrat from Laconia, New Hampshire, dictate how we will debate and how we will make our decisions.

TWU is Ready To Debate on January 15th
Will AMFA Accept Our Challenge?
TEAM TWU

This is nonsense. The TWU has challenged their members to debate themselves, and nothing more. Well, at least they have tacitly admitted they are afraid to send a bus driver to debate an A & P Mechanic. Perhaps they are making progress.;-) - TM

 

[Raptor]

twu informer

You might have saved all of the jobs, but people working for pay/benefits with nothing to produce will take this airline under.

I have to disagree with you on this statement twu informer as 3000 AA employee's are on the street laid off, we in fact have the largest concession of any aviation company plus 3000 people on the street, so the TWU has not saved all the jobs by a long shot, we have as many people on the street as any other Airline. :angry:

 

[TWU informer]

I have to disagree with you on this statement twu informer as 3000 AA employee's are on the street laid off, we in fact have the largest concession of any aviation company plus 3000 people on the street, so the TWU has not saved all the jobs by a long shot, we have as many people on the street as any other Airline. :angry:

Damn, You got me there Raptor.

Maybe I should not underestimate that PR Frim and the continuous printing of lies and deception.

My apologies, I will attempt to never forget those 3000+ TWU Members on the street again.

The point was really about the lack of work for those that were so-called saved by the 10,000 worker hero concession for jobs program. <_<

I still maintain, that without a drastic change in our demise, AA will still file Chapter 11 in 2004. h34r:

 

[TWU informer]

Hey,

You guys ever notice that the TWU advocates are always around during the same time, but never show up all at once on the "currently visiting list" at the bottom of each thread?

I have noticed when one alias leaves, another appears shortly after. Just enough time to logout and login.

Almost appears one person runs about 4-5 alias names on here. And claims to be many TWU supporters.

 

[scorpian]

Quote from jake

and you Scorpion,
You don't read well do you. Let me reiterate for you...I said there had been NO OFFICIAL communication requesting a debate sent from AMFA to any office of the TWU prior to the response at 7pm to Sonny Hall's office.

Jake whats apparent is that you like all your comrades have selective reading habits. cio has made claims that since the AMFA made the challenge first the twu gets to call the place and time. You guys need to get on the same page.

Regardless of who called it first the debate about the debate on this forum has proven beyond a doubt that a mechanics debate is a lesson in futility.
Your threads are the epitome of the typical finish to any debate on the shop floor where the twu die hard cuts you off by yelling some nonsense to keep a guy that is speaking from finishing a well made point. The membership doesn't want any part of this kind of debate.

Twu Informer
the only way they save face when they get their ass scalded is to come back under a different alias.

 

[Raptor]

I for one wish we would all drop the who challenged who first crap, WHO CARES who challenged who first that is almost as stupid as the Mechanics debating each other, two challenges have been made who was first is completly irrelavant, also the two challenges are completly different from each other one is about AA Mechanics debating AA Mechanics and the other is about the Leaders of two large Unions debating as to who could do a better job for AA Mechanics, these two debates have nothing in common they are totally and completly separate from each other in every conceivable way, so it appears there will be two debates if the parties show, but if either of the parties that are being challenged on either debate do not show then, common sense would dictate that the party that did not show for one debate has nothing to do with the other debate.

I for one only care about wether the Union Leaders show as they are accountable and they actually represent something more than one mans opinion, if no one shows for this what I consider to be a pointless Mechanic debate that does not let the TWU Leadership off of the hook as the two debates are completly seperate from each other, and are entirely different types of debates, the most the TWU could do is call the AMFA supporters afraid which in my opinion means nothing, and I would not agree that they are afraid they just might not want to waste their free time on a pointless debate, all of us Mechanics are pretty tired of debating each other, Delle the leader of a Union that has 8 Airlines more than any other Union has challenged the Leaders of a completly different Union to a debate, The TWU Leaders like Sonny & Little & yingst & Gless etc. are accountable to the membership and we want to hear what they have to say, so either be there and face the membership or you are cowards and soon will be HISTORY it's that simple.

AMFA and TWU supporters are not accountable for anything as we are not officers are not in charge of anything and represent only are own opinion, and as we have seen, AMFA supporters are not to particuly interested in what TWU supporters think and vice versa, so I think we should consider both debates valid no matter who was first and show up to whichever one you think you will actually get something out of it.

If you want to hear what three AMFA supporters and three TWU supporters think then show up at the hotel the twu rented on the 15th if you want to hear what two Leaders from two different Unions think then show up at the Brady theater on the 17th its your choice.