Amfa Vs. Twu Debate
- Thread starter TWU informer
- Start date
Here's a thought, if it's all about who gets paid for the day why not have AMFA pay your salary? You did request me to send $$ in the mail. You guys keep talking the coward line and then we'll see who shows up for the debate, don't be afraid, it's a debate.
Have a safe and great New Year!
Have a safe and great New Year!
Raptor
there's only one debate I'm showing up for, (Brady/Jan 17) but I might suggest to team twu that he could save alot of UB money by having his mock debate at Friendly Tavern along with a lingerie show. Even if he had to buy all the beer it would be cheaper than renting a conferance room and paying UB to 50 people.
I talked to alot of mechanics this week and 100% of them were let down about the possibility that the international might disrespectfully decline the challenge by Delle.
You have to remember this is Oklahoma home of Roy D Mercer,,, they wanted to see somebody get their asssss wooooped. Watching the same ole guys hook it up that they see everyday isn't a very interesting proposition and won't draw much interest (if any) but who are we kidding here thats the whole point.
there's only one debate I'm showing up for, (Brady/Jan 17) but I might suggest to team twu that he could save alot of UB money by having his mock debate at Friendly Tavern along with a lingerie show. Even if he had to buy all the beer it would be cheaper than renting a conferance room and paying UB to 50 people.
I talked to alot of mechanics this week and 100% of them were let down about the possibility that the international might disrespectfully decline the challenge by Delle.
You have to remember this is Oklahoma home of Roy D Mercer,,, they wanted to see somebody get their asssss wooooped. Watching the same ole guys hook it up that they see everyday isn't a very interesting proposition and won't draw much interest (if any) but who are we kidding here thats the whole point.
Raptor
there's only one debate I'm showing up for, (Brady/Jan 17) but I might suggest to team twu that he could save alot of UB money by having his mock debate at Friendly Tavern along with a lingerie show. Even if he had to buy all the beer it would be cheaper than renting a conferance room and paying UB to 50 people.
Scorpian I knew you could come up with something to help Team twu get an audience for their pointless debate, if they take your suggestion and all the beer is free, I might even show up myself, under the above circumstances this debate could actually be fun, and he is right it would be cheaper, Team twu if you take Scorpian's suggestion I will be there and I mean all of the suggestion, otherwise few people will be at your pointless debate.
Well, you call it useless when point of fact is that whichever union reps us it is "US" the mechanics and related that live by the contract, not Delle or Sonny. If your fellow mechanics are tired of the same ole debates at work perhaps it's due to the same ole AMFA crybabies attempting to lure them into a no win situation.
And just exactly what is it that would be different if Delle and Sonny went to debate? Different scenerio? Don't think so, AMFA is still not AFL_CIO affiliated, still has allowed record breaking outsourcing in the industry, still follows gloom and doom around the airline industry, still a leach on true unions. Still only had 439 members, industry wide, in 1996, still does not want to rep lower classifications but will do so due to NRB, still wants to get rid of O/H maintenance and go to an all line rep.
What would Delle and his childhood neighbor McCormick have to say different that isn't printed somewhere? We, the represented, want a debate with the AMFA supporters of AA, in front of your peers so they may see the real you, worried? Evidently so. Excuse me if I do not reference your suggestions, they prove to be juvenile as you are.
And just exactly what is it that would be different if Delle and Sonny went to debate? Different scenerio? Don't think so, AMFA is still not AFL_CIO affiliated, still has allowed record breaking outsourcing in the industry, still follows gloom and doom around the airline industry, still a leach on true unions. Still only had 439 members, industry wide, in 1996, still does not want to rep lower classifications but will do so due to NRB, still wants to get rid of O/H maintenance and go to an all line rep.
What would Delle and his childhood neighbor McCormick have to say different that isn't printed somewhere? We, the represented, want a debate with the AMFA supporters of AA, in front of your peers so they may see the real you, worried? Evidently so. Excuse me if I do not reference your suggestions, they prove to be juvenile as you are.
I ran into this post from Mr. Schalk a shafted TWU President, someone I have a great deal of respect for as do many others, he makes alot of sense, I am hearing that he will be at the Jan. 17th debate eager to hear what the TWU International Officer has to say to Delle and twu members as to why the TWU is worth keeping.
Its good to hear from you Chuck.
Received: 12/27/03 04:53:10 EST
Name: Chuck Schalk
E-Mail:
Employer: AA
Location: JFK
Message:
The TWU is constantly saying that AMFA is raiding. It is a representational challenge for their class and craft. I also consider it extremely hypocritical of the TWU to denounce representational challenging, as that is how the TWU originally got on the property of AA in 1946. The TWU claimed they could better represent the class and craft than the incumbent union. They held a card drive and were successful in gaining representation. Now that the TWU is being challenged, the theory and rules are suppose to change? There is a major effort by the TWU,TTD and AFL/CIO to stop any challenge. Where was this great collaborated effort when our class and craft really could of used it? I guess now that their survival is under fire it requires immediate counteraction. The TWU is a reactionary union. We typically fight after the losing the battle. But with the threat of representational challenge it is given the highest priority!
If the TWU is as great as they say they are, then stop your negative campaign and prove it through a positive campaign. step up to the debate challenge on January 17, 2004. Let the members hear from all parties in one room. Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.
Its good to hear from you Chuck.
Received: 12/27/03 04:53:10 EST
Name: Chuck Schalk
E-Mail:
Employer: AA
Location: JFK
Message:
The TWU is constantly saying that AMFA is raiding. It is a representational challenge for their class and craft. I also consider it extremely hypocritical of the TWU to denounce representational challenging, as that is how the TWU originally got on the property of AA in 1946. The TWU claimed they could better represent the class and craft than the incumbent union. They held a card drive and were successful in gaining representation. Now that the TWU is being challenged, the theory and rules are suppose to change? There is a major effort by the TWU,TTD and AFL/CIO to stop any challenge. Where was this great collaborated effort when our class and craft really could of used it? I guess now that their survival is under fire it requires immediate counteraction. The TWU is a reactionary union. We typically fight after the losing the battle. But with the threat of representational challenge it is given the highest priority!
If the TWU is as great as they say they are, then stop your negative campaign and prove it through a positive campaign. step up to the debate challenge on January 17, 2004. Let the members hear from all parties in one room. Better yet, If the TWU feels strong enough that they are the best for our class and craft, the TWU should call for a representational election and put the issue to rest once and for all by a membership vote. The membership is the union, so let them decide.
team twuTeamTWU said:
your exactly right we are the ones that have to live by the contract so why didnt we get a revote?
You said (your) fellow mechanics, not sure what you meant by (YOUR), are you not one of us? You don't have to lure anyone into a no win conversation if you stick to the facts it just ends up that way.
If you don't think it will be any different to listen to the top representatives of both bargaining agents thats only your opinion and really doesn't mean diddly. I talked to dozens of mechanics this week and got the same answer from all of them. They want to see a debate between Delle and Sonny. It's belittling to the membership that the international may not send anyone down but hey if you guys want to miss your last chance to fend off this drive you have only yourselves to blame.
439 members in the AMFA in 1996 and have increased 450 fold since then. I can see why the twu is worried. As far as representing lower classifications and getting rid of overhaul thats another one of your opinions that doesn't mean scwat.
Whats juvenile about free beer and a lingerie show??? Just trying to help your debate debacle.
best of luck Scorpion
Hey all you AMFA PUKES....I'm baaaack!
You know, I look in on you guys from time to time without wasting my breath and usually find the same old stuff spewing from your hypocritical, brain dead pie holes. It seems even some of you feel this BS is significant enough in the grand scheme of things to change your alias as an attempt to hide who you are. Yes, Dave Stewart, I'm talking to you! But for all you "pukes", it's beyond me how you can lie, cheat and steal to get what you want. However, that is not why I chose to post today. Today I wanted to chat a little about this here "Debate". Now, I have seen the fax receipts and messages sent, first from the TWU to AMFA national in Laconia NH, challenging AMFA to a debate on January 15. The fax was sent on the 22nd of Dec at 4pm and the "puke" leadership (does that cloud the issue too much when I use the word "puke"?) responded at 7pm the same day to Sonny Hall's office. Up until the time of AMFA's response to the TWU, there had been NO official communication received at either the Local 514 offices or any of the International offices requesting a debate. Sorry, for all you internet gawking geeks, the mention of a challenge on an internet chat board or the spreading of some flyers does not constitute "official notification". What you pukes should've done is stopped flapping your gums and beating your chests amongst yourselves and issued the official challenge. But now it's too late for that...you screwed the pooch and the TWU hosed your unsuspecting butts with a challenge. (OH NO!) So what are you gonna do? The challenge has been made, if you guys want a debate as badly as you claim, let's thrown down! And stop the bull about how insignifcant the members are who will be debating. That surprises me frankly (NOT), an organization who claims that the members run the organization doesn't want to let the members decide their own fate....HMMM, or don't you trust your own members....the TWU does, they proved it! It also was plainly clear at the meetings you boys had in Tulsa that your leaders didn't want anything to do with the professionals the TWU provided to ensure the truth was heard, that's why they were asked to leave. So it seems your "puke" leadership doesn't want to debate Mr. Luby and your membership doesn't want to debate the TWU membership. Sounds to like you guys don't know which way you want to go (are you getting dizzy yet?). So let me help you, c'mon show up on the 15th, it'll be a hoot!
You know, I look in on you guys from time to time without wasting my breath and usually find the same old stuff spewing from your hypocritical, brain dead pie holes. It seems even some of you feel this BS is significant enough in the grand scheme of things to change your alias as an attempt to hide who you are. Yes, Dave Stewart, I'm talking to you! But for all you "pukes", it's beyond me how you can lie, cheat and steal to get what you want. However, that is not why I chose to post today. Today I wanted to chat a little about this here "Debate". Now, I have seen the fax receipts and messages sent, first from the TWU to AMFA national in Laconia NH, challenging AMFA to a debate on January 15. The fax was sent on the 22nd of Dec at 4pm and the "puke" leadership (does that cloud the issue too much when I use the word "puke"?) responded at 7pm the same day to Sonny Hall's office. Up until the time of AMFA's response to the TWU, there had been NO official communication received at either the Local 514 offices or any of the International offices requesting a debate. Sorry, for all you internet gawking geeks, the mention of a challenge on an internet chat board or the spreading of some flyers does not constitute "official notification". What you pukes should've done is stopped flapping your gums and beating your chests amongst yourselves and issued the official challenge. But now it's too late for that...you screwed the pooch and the TWU hosed your unsuspecting butts with a challenge. (OH NO!) So what are you gonna do? The challenge has been made, if you guys want a debate as badly as you claim, let's thrown down! And stop the bull about how insignifcant the members are who will be debating. That surprises me frankly (NOT), an organization who claims that the members run the organization doesn't want to let the members decide their own fate....HMMM, or don't you trust your own members....the TWU does, they proved it! It also was plainly clear at the meetings you boys had in Tulsa that your leaders didn't want anything to do with the professionals the TWU provided to ensure the truth was heard, that's why they were asked to leave. So it seems your "puke" leadership doesn't want to debate Mr. Luby and your membership doesn't want to debate the TWU membership. Sounds to like you guys don't know which way you want to go (are you getting dizzy yet?). So let me help you, c'mon show up on the 15th, it'll be a hoot!
Yo jake there will probably be two debates one won't matter much but I am sure someone will probably show up to give their unimportant opinion and one will be alittle fuller than the other, you show up to whichever one you want.
and I saw nothing juvenile about scorpians proposal but Team TWU is too stupid to know a good thing when they see it.
which is why AMFA will win.
and I saw nothing juvenile about scorpians proposal but Team TWU is too stupid to know a good thing when they see it.
which is why AMFA will win.
regretnot2003
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Received: 12/27/03 10:49:29 EST
Name: AMT Mechanic
E-Mail: does the TWU Leadership have the guts to debate the best Union Leader with the most popular Union in the U.S ?
Employer: AA
Location: Tulsa
Message:
Rumor has it that Local 514 asked Mr. Art Luby to take Delle's place in the debate, his response was that he is not a member of the TWU and that the retainer that the TWU is paying him does not cover public debates, he really does not want to debate Delle and he also told Local 514 and the International that they would have to offer him a substantial amount of money for him to consider the request, the TWU Executive board member that told me this did not say how much but I am betting it is more that 20,000 probably alot more, well Local 514 and the International are not willing to pay him what he wants so Art Luby is out of the picture, and the TWU is having a hard time finding a highly paid TWU International officer that they think would be qualified to debate Delle, we all know who are International officers are and can surely understand their delima, but as I see it not sending anyone even an idiot like yingst would be a boom for the AMFA card drive as no one likes their Leaders to be cowards. 🙂
too bad Little is sick he is the one that I really wanted to see on that stage as he gave away 20 years worth of contract in less than 7 days 🙁
We all need to write letters and send emails to the International telling them that we demand that one of them steps up to the plate and debates Delle, I think supporters from both sides should do this, so that we can finally get to the truth, it is much more difficult to lie in front of hundreds of members and media cameras. 🙂
Come to NWA and ask about debates we haven't seen Delle since the meetings in MSP in 1998. He wanted a debate then too until AMFA won. Ask him for me what happened to the other HALF of our mechanics here at NWA? Ask NWA mechanics how happy we are so far. You may not get to read this beacause TM censors any posts that may be too painfully truthful and in contrary to his beliefs. If you get the TWU atty., to debate Delle, Delle will lose for sure. Let Mechanics that know what they want debate amongst themselves free of censorship and interference. Maybe the guy that censors this web forum could go there and get some facts instead of uncontrolable emotional blurbs.
Also ask Delle if he will show the videos of the previous meetings AMFA had around the country. They're probably "classified", we asked and asked to see AMFA's videos and they won't come clean with them.
:blink:
Name: AMT Mechanic
E-Mail: does the TWU Leadership have the guts to debate the best Union Leader with the most popular Union in the U.S ?
Employer: AA
Location: Tulsa
Message:
Rumor has it that Local 514 asked Mr. Art Luby to take Delle's place in the debate, his response was that he is not a member of the TWU and that the retainer that the TWU is paying him does not cover public debates, he really does not want to debate Delle and he also told Local 514 and the International that they would have to offer him a substantial amount of money for him to consider the request, the TWU Executive board member that told me this did not say how much but I am betting it is more that 20,000 probably alot more, well Local 514 and the International are not willing to pay him what he wants so Art Luby is out of the picture, and the TWU is having a hard time finding a highly paid TWU International officer that they think would be qualified to debate Delle, we all know who are International officers are and can surely understand their delima, but as I see it not sending anyone even an idiot like yingst would be a boom for the AMFA card drive as no one likes their Leaders to be cowards. 🙂
too bad Little is sick he is the one that I really wanted to see on that stage as he gave away 20 years worth of contract in less than 7 days 🙁
We all need to write letters and send emails to the International telling them that we demand that one of them steps up to the plate and debates Delle, I think supporters from both sides should do this, so that we can finally get to the truth, it is much more difficult to lie in front of hundreds of members and media cameras. 🙂
Come to NWA and ask about debates we haven't seen Delle since the meetings in MSP in 1998. He wanted a debate then too until AMFA won. Ask him for me what happened to the other HALF of our mechanics here at NWA? Ask NWA mechanics how happy we are so far. You may not get to read this beacause TM censors any posts that may be too painfully truthful and in contrary to his beliefs. If you get the TWU atty., to debate Delle, Delle will lose for sure. Let Mechanics that know what they want debate amongst themselves free of censorship and interference. Maybe the guy that censors this web forum could go there and get some facts instead of uncontrolable emotional blurbs.
Also ask Delle if he will show the videos of the previous meetings AMFA had around the country. They're probably "classified", we asked and asked to see AMFA's videos and they won't come clean with them.
:blink:
Well I guess we are having a copy/paste contest. lmao here ya go try this one!!!
Received: 12/26/03 12:42:52 EST
Name: Dan Cunningham
E-Mail:
Employer: aa
Location: AFW
Message:
Dear Mechanic & Related Personnel at AA,
To those that would like to see me debate some twu folks I can only ask, "Where have you been?" I've been debating all twu comers for the better part of 10 years and haven't seen too many believers in my neck of the woods for quite some time because they don't have any replies to what their union of choice is doing when presented with facts. My debating skills were, in the early days, known to be a little unpolished, but after debunking many a twu believer I have come into my own as a serious challenger of the "Great Mystic" Sunny Hall. This is not to say I've ever had the pleasure to debate Mr. Hall, but I'd be glad to any day of the week.
I know Mr. Hall's good friend and legal advisor, one Mr. Art Luby, has basically, in the last few months, worn a great deal of egg on his face every time I see him. His less than honorable attempt to RAID the AMFA during contract talks at Atlantic Coast Airlines (ACA) by starting a Craft Union, most probably with TWU DUES MONIES, called the Aircraft Maintenance Technicians Union (AMTU) during the 1998 contract negotiations has led Mr. Luby to be viewed by many a righteous AMTs and others as nothing but a dung eating Worm!
We can all take stabs at the other side, but the facts remain unarguably that:
The TWU was started by the Communist Party.
The TWU mocks true DEMOCRACY and only pays lip service to the membership.
The TWU states that Mike Quill was the first President when indeed Tom O'Shea
was the first President of the TWU and WAS DIRECTED TO STEP ASIDE TO LET A
BETTER COMMUNIST TAKE THE REINS OF CONTROL, one Mr. Mike Quill.
The TWU, and the other industrial unions, such as; the IAM and IBT, are
structured to give total dictatorial power to their top officials without
a direct vote by the membership.
The TWU has served as an Agent for American Airlines for probably most of their
57 years on the property representing Mechanic & Related Workers.
The TWU has created the most aggressively management friendly union leaderships
throughout their system of "Strong, Autonomous Locals".
The TWU started the industry into a 20 YEAR DOWNWARD SPIRAL IN PAY AND BENEFITS
with their INDUSTRY LEADING "B" SCALE!
The TWU has provided to every airline they represent the ability to rabidly go
after any worker or group that stands defiantly against aggressive
management behavior or fights against their own unions' sellouts!
The TWU has provided themselves grandiose Wages with no paycuts even for their
own families, while their own members in ever growing numbers file
bankruptcy.
I'll not be detered by some overpaid Public Relations cowards that are afraid to come out into the light of day to be heard, but here hide out on bulletin boards throwing "Cheap Shots" at honorable men and women that choose to fight rather than cower, that choose to educate themselves rather than believe just what they are told, that know the futures of their own children hang in the balance.
Lets get Art Luby to testify during a debate about the true nature of his actions to undermine AMFA negotiations at ACA.
Lets ask Art Luby to testify as to what he meant when he stated to the Local 567 Membership that we could not be forced out of the now OSM shops when they were peddling the SRP program in 1995 only to find out, in a short 6 months, that Mr. Luby was providing the charade of Legal Speak AAtrition to get us to buy off on his misrepresentations.
Lets ask Mr. Sunny Hall and Mr. Jim Little about the balloting that was conducted illegally, or in the least, immorally to bastardize the results of the recently ratified 5O YEARS OF CONCESSIONS contract.
Lets ask Mr. Hall and Mr. Little why they used ECLAT, company that had worked for American Airlines not 6 months earlier to persuade the local Presidents of the dire financial straits at AA.
Lets ask Mr. Hall and Mr. Little if the $318,000,000 was just to push us back to the stone age in wages and help AA keep a Maintenance Base or two open while attempting to beat back the AMFA drive they knew was coming.
Finally, I'd like to thank Mr. Hall for selecting a known Felon to help his anti-AMFA campaign here at AFW. That has helped us tremendously. Also, I'd like to thank Mr. Hall for making me the HIGHEST PAID AMT at American Airlines! Thanks Sunny, for you direction, to a new union, and your assistance in getting a bit of my pay back for me!
Have an AMFA New Year!
"Company Man" Dan Cunningham
Received: 12/26/03 12:42:52 EST
Name: Dan Cunningham
E-Mail:
Employer: aa
Location: AFW
Message:
Dear Mechanic & Related Personnel at AA,
To those that would like to see me debate some twu folks I can only ask, "Where have you been?" I've been debating all twu comers for the better part of 10 years and haven't seen too many believers in my neck of the woods for quite some time because they don't have any replies to what their union of choice is doing when presented with facts. My debating skills were, in the early days, known to be a little unpolished, but after debunking many a twu believer I have come into my own as a serious challenger of the "Great Mystic" Sunny Hall. This is not to say I've ever had the pleasure to debate Mr. Hall, but I'd be glad to any day of the week.
I know Mr. Hall's good friend and legal advisor, one Mr. Art Luby, has basically, in the last few months, worn a great deal of egg on his face every time I see him. His less than honorable attempt to RAID the AMFA during contract talks at Atlantic Coast Airlines (ACA) by starting a Craft Union, most probably with TWU DUES MONIES, called the Aircraft Maintenance Technicians Union (AMTU) during the 1998 contract negotiations has led Mr. Luby to be viewed by many a righteous AMTs and others as nothing but a dung eating Worm!
We can all take stabs at the other side, but the facts remain unarguably that:
The TWU was started by the Communist Party.
The TWU mocks true DEMOCRACY and only pays lip service to the membership.
The TWU states that Mike Quill was the first President when indeed Tom O'Shea
was the first President of the TWU and WAS DIRECTED TO STEP ASIDE TO LET A
BETTER COMMUNIST TAKE THE REINS OF CONTROL, one Mr. Mike Quill.
The TWU, and the other industrial unions, such as; the IAM and IBT, are
structured to give total dictatorial power to their top officials without
a direct vote by the membership.
The TWU has served as an Agent for American Airlines for probably most of their
57 years on the property representing Mechanic & Related Workers.
The TWU has created the most aggressively management friendly union leaderships
throughout their system of "Strong, Autonomous Locals".
The TWU started the industry into a 20 YEAR DOWNWARD SPIRAL IN PAY AND BENEFITS
with their INDUSTRY LEADING "B" SCALE!
The TWU has provided to every airline they represent the ability to rabidly go
after any worker or group that stands defiantly against aggressive
management behavior or fights against their own unions' sellouts!
The TWU has provided themselves grandiose Wages with no paycuts even for their
own families, while their own members in ever growing numbers file
bankruptcy.
I'll not be detered by some overpaid Public Relations cowards that are afraid to come out into the light of day to be heard, but here hide out on bulletin boards throwing "Cheap Shots" at honorable men and women that choose to fight rather than cower, that choose to educate themselves rather than believe just what they are told, that know the futures of their own children hang in the balance.
Lets get Art Luby to testify during a debate about the true nature of his actions to undermine AMFA negotiations at ACA.
Lets ask Art Luby to testify as to what he meant when he stated to the Local 567 Membership that we could not be forced out of the now OSM shops when they were peddling the SRP program in 1995 only to find out, in a short 6 months, that Mr. Luby was providing the charade of Legal Speak AAtrition to get us to buy off on his misrepresentations.
Lets ask Mr. Sunny Hall and Mr. Jim Little about the balloting that was conducted illegally, or in the least, immorally to bastardize the results of the recently ratified 5O YEARS OF CONCESSIONS contract.
Lets ask Mr. Hall and Mr. Little why they used ECLAT, company that had worked for American Airlines not 6 months earlier to persuade the local Presidents of the dire financial straits at AA.
Lets ask Mr. Hall and Mr. Little if the $318,000,000 was just to push us back to the stone age in wages and help AA keep a Maintenance Base or two open while attempting to beat back the AMFA drive they knew was coming.
Finally, I'd like to thank Mr. Hall for selecting a known Felon to help his anti-AMFA campaign here at AFW. That has helped us tremendously. Also, I'd like to thank Mr. Hall for making me the HIGHEST PAID AMT at American Airlines! Thanks Sunny, for you direction, to a new union, and your assistance in getting a bit of my pay back for me!
Have an AMFA New Year!
"Company Man" Dan Cunningham
This is interesting, cio says the AMFA made the first challenge so the twu should set the time and place. Now were back to the twu made the first challenge.
That post reminded me of the shop debates that we're all sick and tired of.
They usually conclude by the twu diehard yelling and screaming his ass off with nothing important comming out just like the threads posted by team twu the last few days. Alot of name calling and no substance. This is the type of debate no one wants to see.
The good thing about this forum is we are spared the loud obnoxious b.s. first hand but I bet the pounding you guys give your keybaords when your typing your threads makes every woopecker within two blocks envious!!!!!!
That post reminded me of the shop debates that we're all sick and tired of.
They usually conclude by the twu diehard yelling and screaming his ass off with nothing important comming out just like the threads posted by team twu the last few days. Alot of name calling and no substance. This is the type of debate no one wants to see.
The good thing about this forum is we are spared the loud obnoxious b.s. first hand but I bet the pounding you guys give your keybaords when your typing your threads makes every woopecker within two blocks envious!!!!!!
