ALPA/USAPA/West thread 3/30-4/5

[Leonidas]

"She ruled that the portions of the suit affected by the statute of limitations claim must be dismissed. But this judge is smarter than all of ALPA put together. The judge knew and stated in her ruling that ALPA was guilty of breach in their duty to fairly represent the MDA pilots.

She then opened the door and gave us a huge bonus. She granted the amendment to add damages based on the Nicolau Award AND she put ALPA on notice that they breached their DFR.


It was never stated that the complaint was dismissed, ONLY PORTIONS OF THE COMPLAINT WERE DISMISSED. IF THE COMPLAINT HAD BEEN DISMISSED ENTIRELY... NO AMENDMENT TO THE COMPLAINT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. A NEW SUIT WOULD HAVE TO BE FILED

The judge said "alleged" damages, which of course was conveniently left out of that communication, "alleged" generally means charged but not yet proven. It may be my bias interfering but I read the ruling as the plaintiff has the burden of proving their injuries were caused by the fact that ALPA introduced an erroneous seniority list into the arbitration.

It does not seem that there is still a dispute as to whether this list was erroneous or that ALPA introduced it into the arbitration.

The dispute now is proving the "alleged" injuries were caused by ALPA's undisputed action of submitting the erroneous list to the arbitrator and the amount of the damages. The Funny thing is that the list was submitted by non other than the east mec.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The dispute now is proving the "alleged" injuries were caused by ALPA's undisputed action of submitting the erroneous list to the arbitrator and the amount of the damages. The Funny thing is that the list was submitted by non other than the east mec.

That's right ALPA. Now you're beginning to get it.
ALPA should have thrown out the award when they had the chance. Now the chance is gone. ALPA will most likely lose LCC and STILL face DFR lawsuits as well. Unless they come u with a WORKABLE merger policy,the snowball has just started to roll!

 

[LSS]

The judge said "alleged" damages, which of course was conveniently left out of that communication, "alleged" generally means charged but not yet proven. It may be my bias interfering but I read the ruling as the plaintiff has the burden of proving their injuries were caused by the fact that ALPA introduced an erroneous seniority list into the arbitration.

It does not seem that there is still a dispute as to whether this list was erroneous or that ALPA introduced it into the arbitration.

The dispute now is proving the "alleged" injuries were caused by ALPA's undisputed action of submitting the erroneous list to the arbitrator and the amount of the damages. The Funny thing is that the list was submitted by non other than the east mec.

Quite honestly, I think it's very premature to speculate on this complaint, the damages, etc. as this hearing was based upon ALPA's Motion to Dismiss the suit in it's entirety. Unless you have read the complaint and understand the charges, the fact that 6 counts within the entire complaint were dismissed due timeliness issues does not render the entire complaint "dismissed". Usually motions to dismiss come "early on" (sometimes before completion of discovery and depositions) if you could remotely consider years to reach this juncture early.

Further, this case has not yet gone to trial, so everything is "alleged" until the MDA pilots have their day in court and the opportunity to put forth evidence as to ALPA's malfeasance and breach of DFR.

 

[luvthe9]

MidAtlantic Lawsuit

Update #2 for Mar 31, 2008

Mike Haber is preparing a memo for the plaintiffs which will answer your concerns and fully explain what the judge's ruling really means. I have been reading the web board comments and I see that most people understand the significance of this ruling but there are a few who see this as defeat. If you are viewing this as defeat then you do not understand what has happen.



Ladies and gentlemen: We have just won our DFR lawsuit against ALPA. The judge’s ruling is clear and beyond question. I've even received emails of congratulations from Tracy Parrella and Woody Menear. These are people who understand the legal system and understand what has just happen.



Let me briefly explain what has happen and leave the rest up to Haber:



We went to court to argue against ALPA's motion to dismiss and to get authority to add damages to our lawsuit for the Nicolau Award. Personally, I never expected to succeed with the Nicolau damage claim but we did. ALPA argued that we knew that they had screwed MDA pilots for longer than 6 months before the lawsuit was filed. They provided the 2002 restructuring agreement as evidence. We all know that they are full of crap but the evidence provided to the judge left her short of being convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.



She ruled that the portions of the suit affected by the statute of limitations claim must be dismissed. But this judge is smarter than all of ALPA put together. The judge knew and stated in her ruling that ALPA was guilty of breach in their duty to fairly represent the MDA pilots.



She then opened the door and gave us a huge bonus. She granted the amendment to add damages based on the Nicolau Award AND she put ALPA on notice that they breached their DFR. Basically, ALPA now has a DFR lawsuit on their hands that they already lost as long as Haber can keep the technical legalities (like statute of limitations) aside. If the case is heard on its merits (and it will be) then we have already won.



For those who think that the other issues are dead - guess again. Those issues are the reason a flawed seniority list even existed in the first place. Those issues are very much still alive and will be presented in our DFR case. We will go to court to sue for damages based on the seniority integration that left MDA pilots out. But, the reason that that happen is due to ALPA's failure to protect the MDA pilots as mainline USAirways pilots and provide recall benefit. Everything is related. It's the same issues by a different name. The big difference is that we NOW know how the judge feels about what ALPA did to us.
I guarantee ALPA is taking a crap over this. They have a much bigger problem then they did before. They will be found guilty of DFR if they go to court.


Some have argued that if USAPA wins then the MDA pilots will get the proper seniority integration anyway and that the case will fall apart because there is no damage. I have asked Mike Haber to explain the monetary damage regardless of who wins the election. You will be surprised to learn that the expected dollar amount per pilot is now higher than ever before and does not get impacted by the election.



I know that a few of you said you would never settle for less than $1 million per pilots. But the results of the vote were that an offer of $100,000 per pilots plus legal fees would go to the plaintiffs for a vote. I think this is far more likely of what we can expect based on this latest development. And don't forget, a settlement of this type would only be $28 million dollars. This is what I expect and it is what I always have expected. Those who know me or have read any of my postings know that the $1.2 billion was never attainable. I expect $100,000 apiece plus our legal fees reimbursed. Any offer to settle for that amount or more will then go to vote. Anything short of that will proceed to litigation. And the judge has already ruled that ALPA is guilty.



So, I hope this short explanation allows you to sleep better. We are in a better situation than we have ever been with this DFR suit even though the complaints were dismissed due to the statute. This judge just did us all a favor. She knew ALPA would prevail at litigation due to the statute of limitations so she fixed the problem right now and is allowing us to amend the lawsuit and proceed to litigation with a better than excellent chance for success.



I will forward the memo from Haber as soon as I receive it.



It's high five time - not sad faces ...............








All or None



WAY TO GO GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[EyeInTheSky]

OUCH!. Somebody needs to document this for a DFR lawsuit againt ALPA, which could go ahead even if USAPA wins. Man, that's scathing! ALPA was planning the demise of LCC? I always wondered why they had so many closed door sessions.

oldiebutgoody, right on!

As an organization ALPA is corrupt, dishonorable, two-faced, and most of all....spineless. Sayonora you numb nuts!


Later,
Eye

 

[nostradamus]

alpa does not care about these Aloha pilots, they will be invited to a union meeting and be taught how to fill out an application for employment, if their dues are paid up.


Aloha Airlines ceased operations, Hawaiian Airlines pilots will gain dramatically from this.

"Hawaiian Airlines pilots expressed sadness Sunday at the news that Aloha Airlines had ceased operations after 61 years in business. Both the Hawaiian pilots and the Aloha pilots are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA)."

For those folks not in the airline business, Hawaiian Airlines alpa pilots are crying in their beer over this right now, but they are tears of joy. I do not agree with their elation, but I have witnessed this time and time again.

"On Friday, the Hawaiian MEC ratified a one-month letter of agreement for April that temporarily lifts contractual limits on how many hours HAL pilots can fly within the Hawaiian Islands. ALPA agreed to ease the work rules only if Aloha was forced to cancel service.

“It was our fervent hope that this agreement would not have to be used (malarky and bull statement) ,” Sampson said. “But consistent, reliable air service is essential to the Hawaiian people and the letter of agreement will help our airline ensure that this vital lifeline is not disrupted due to Aloha shutting down.”

Instead of inviting the pilots to work for them they will be "allowed" to apply, but history has shown they will not hire them.

"Sampson said he would be contacting Hawaiian Airlines’ management to discuss potential ways to assist the Aloha pilot group, either through preferential interviews for future positions at Hawaiian or other means."

"On Friday, the Hawaiian MEC ratified a one-month letter of agreement for April that temporarily lifts contractual limits on how many hours HAL pilots can fly"

Great, you hawaiian guys are really stepping up to the plate, to fill your pockets you selfish pigs.

alpa national pilots union allowed an airline like mesa to undercut all other pilots. alpa allowed these pilots to undercut the 61 year operating Aloha pilots. mesa pilots are part of the airline pilots association, which allows scabs as long as they pay dues.



More crocadile tears of alpa "brothers and sisters"

 

[YVINTERN]

Thats why I'm leaning on USAPA to not be greedy or corrupted as ALPA.

 

[cactusboy53]

Thats why I'm leaning on USAPA to not be greedy or corrupted as ALPA.

Now that's funny! Let me know how "giving" the USAPIAN way is if you win after the 17th.

USAPA's number one goal is to throw out a federal binding arbitration because they state that it's not fair and that date of hire is the norm in the industry(??? not for the last 16 years)! GREED & DISHONESTY seem to be the trademarks of a USAPA union.

Benefits EQUAL to all that ALPA offers it's members are not sercured yet, are they? USAPA Union....born in the back of a van ride from D.C. to PHL.

I commute, and you should hear some of the commentary from pilots from other airlines about your moves! Your USAPAIAN reputation preceeds you like you can not believe.

PS...Our section 6 is open and meeting are scheduled. I hope for your sake that you will represent the west pilots as well as you intend on representing the east pilots.

 

[ableoneable]

This AND a DFR lawsuit over what the Delta MEC guy said, and I think LCC pilots could OWN ALPA! Maybe we could auction off Prater's boats and airplanes!

Explain to me the merits of a DFR case against ALPA national for something that the chair of the Delta ALPA MEC unit said. That individual is not obligated to protect your interests in any way. He is actually obligated to only look out for Delta pilots.

 

[sharktooth]

Explain to me the merits of a DFR case against ALPA national for something that the chair of the Delta ALPA MEC unit said. That individual is not obligated to protect your interests in any way. He is actually obligated to only look out for Delta pilots.

So, the MEC chair could not be a viable witness in a Federal court? I don't see him retracting his statement.

 

[CactusFlyr]

USAPA was born from greed.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Explain to me the merits of a DFR case against ALPA national for something that the chair of the Delta ALPA MEC unit said. That individual is not obligated to protect your interests in any way. He is actually obligated to only look out for Delta pilots.

Personally I don't think there are any merits here. But it does bring up a dilemma for national. I would like to see a lawsuit for DFR just to expose national for what they are. However, with that said, it's what you can't see or understand that bothers me. His comments came at the highest levels within ALPA. We're one union right? One of my supposed "brothers in unity" planning for my demise. With brothers like that who needs enemies? So yes he is obligated to protect his constituents just not at my or your expense please.

This is just one more reason ALPA needs to just go away with good riddance.

 

[EastUS]

USAPA was born from greed.

You may well have a valid point sir. From the manifesto of AWA's "Righteous Position", as expressed by a major AWA "War" drum beater:

Leonidas: "I want the captain seat.....and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"

 

[nycbusdriver]

Quite honestly, I think it's very premature to speculate on this complaint, the damages, etc. as this hearing was based upon ALPA's Motion to Dismiss the suit in it's entirety. Unless you have read the complaint and understand the charges, the fact that 6 counts within the entire complaint were dismissed due timeliness issues does not render the entire complaint "dismissed". Usually motions to dismiss come "early on" (sometimes before completion of discovery and depositions) if you could remotely consider years to reach this juncture early.

Further, this case has not yet gone to trial, so everything is "alleged" until the MDA pilots have their day in court and the opportunity to put forth evidence as to ALPA's malfeasance and breach of DFR.

You seem to be a knowledgeable voice of reason. Welcome to the trenches.

Since federal judges have fairly wide latitude and the Nicolau "award" is part of the suit before her, is it possible that she may simply set Nic aside (i.e. invalidate it) as part of her judgment? Sounds to me like she's already acknowledged that it was unfair due to ALPA's actions.

 

[ableoneable]

Personally I don't think there are any merits here. But it does bring up a dilemma for national. I would like to see a lawsuit for DFR just to expose national for what they are. However, with that said, it's what you can't see or understand that bothers me. His comments came at the highest levels within ALPA. We're one union right? One of my supposed "brothers in unity" planning for my demise. With brothers like that who needs enemies? So yes he is obligated to protect his constituents just not at my or your expense please.

This is just one more reason ALPA needs to just go away with good riddance.

Again, not only did the Delta officer have no duty to represent he really did not say anything damaging. All he did was talk about contingencies. He was not attempting to either further AAA's demise or their rescue, he was in no position to do either. He merely thought it likely that AAA liquidate and he wanted his pilots to gain as much as possible.

You seem to be a knowledgeable voice of reason. Welcome to the trenches.

Since federal judges have fairly wide latitude and the Nicolau "award" is part of the suit before her, is it possible that she may simply set Nic aside (i.e. invalidate it) as part of her judgment? Sounds to me like she's already acknowledged that it was unfair due to ALPA's actions.

Does anybody have the full text of her decision?