ALPA/USAPA/West thread 3/30-4/5

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Subject: MDA pilots proceeding to court
Date: 31 Mar 2008 02:17 PM

ALPA will likely state that the MDA law suit has been dismissed. Of course, this is not true. The judge did rule that the 6 month statute of limitations does apply to 6 of the complaints filed against ALPA.

However, here comes the GOOD News:

The judge has agreed that ALPA breached its duty to fairly represent the MDA pilots. (But, due to the statute of limitations she has ruled that those 6 portions of the complaint need to be dismissed) However, in her ruling, she opened the door for the lawsuit to be modified in such a way as to sue for damages from ALPA because the “defendants' (ALPA) knowing stipulated to introduce an erroneous seniority list that they knew would adversely affect the careers and employment rights of their represented membersâ€￾. This is important because she approved the Plaintiffs' motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint based on ALPA’s misconduct at the seniority integration arbitration.

THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF USAIRAWYS EAST PILOTS!

The attorney, Michael Haber, will have the amended complaint ready to file in very short order. The judge has already ruled that the 6 month statute of limitations does not impact this amendment and has authorized the complaint to be amended.

The judges exact words are contained here:

"As plaintiffs point out, defendants misunderstand the gravamen of the Proposed Supplemental Complaint. The alleged breach is not about the process or terms of the arbitration award . . . but that the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings. To this allegation, defendants have not offered any reason to deny plaintiffs leave....

"It is also difficult to understand defendants' causation argument that, even if plaintiffs had been designated as active on the seniority list submitted to the arbitrator, their positions on the integrated list would not have been affected. In the Award, the arbitrator made clear that the integrated list merged active US Airways pilots with active America West pilots, but that 'merging active pilots with furloughees, despite the length of service of some of the latter, is not at all fair or equitable under any of the stated criteria.' . . . .

"Accepting [plaintiffs'] allegations as true, and reading the Proposed Supplemental Complaint in the manner most favorable to plaintiffs, plaintiff have adequately alleged that their injuries were caused by the defendants' knowing stipulation to introduce an erroneous seniority list that they knew would adversely affect the careers and employment rights of their represented members. Plaintiffs' motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint is therefore granted."

This ruling by the judge is significant for ALL USAirways pilots. It means that “ALPA’s 's misconduct at the seniority integration arbitration have survived in Federal Court and will be heard.â€￾ – comment by Michael Haber

The seniority integration portion of the Nicolau Award will be heard in COURT! The green light was turned on by the Federal Judge.

It is significant to know that the dismissal portion of her ruling was based on a technicality – statute of limitations. She recognizes this and has ruled in such a way as to give the plaintiffs the vehicle necessary to proceed in the DFR case against ALPA. And proceed they will!

Read this next quote from the judge carefully:

The Amended Complaint makes clear that plaintiffs knew or reasonably should have known as early as the execution of the 2002 LOA, and no later than the 2004 LOA, that defendants had misrepresented MidAtlantic's corporate form to them and bargained away their rights under the CBA. Plaintiffs repeatedly allege that neither US Airways nor defendants informed them that MidAtlantic would not be a separately incorporated entity. However, at the time of the 2002 LOA's execution, plaintiffs had actual notice that the terms of MidAtlantic employment had been negotiated irrespective of MidAtlantic's corporate form....While plaintiffs did not know definitively whether MidAtlantic was a division -- as the agreement only provided that US Airways 'may' operate MidAtlantic as such -- they knew or reasonably should have known that defendants had rendered what plaintiffs claim was an important bargaining factor into an irrelevant one. Plaintiffs allege that MidAtlantic's corporate form was significant because, if MidAtlantic were a division of US Airways, they would have been considered recalled US Airways pilots who were entitled to the terms of the CBA. Plaintiffs were aware of the terms of the 2002 LOA and therefore knew by its execution date that defendants had breached its duty to them by inaccurately representing their interests at the bargaining table....

The law suit will be amended to comply with the judges ruling and the MDA pilots will have their day in court.
 
Subject: MDA pilots proceeding to court

This is important because she approved the Plaintiffs' motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint based on ALPA’s misconduct at the seniority integration arbitration.

The judges exact words are contained here:
"As plaintiffs point out, defendants misunderstand the gravamen of the Proposed Supplemental Complaint. The alleged breach is not about the process or terms of the arbitration award . . . but that the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings. To this allegation, defendants have not offered any reason to deny plaintiffs leave....

"It is also difficult to understand defendants' causation argument that, even if plaintiffs had been designated as active on the seniority list submitted to the arbitrator, their positions on the integrated list would not have been affected. In the Award, the arbitrator made clear that the integrated list merged active US Airways pilots with active America West pilots, but that 'merging active pilots with furloughees, despite the length of service of some of the latter, is not at all fair or equitable under any of the stated criteria.' . . . .

"Accepting [plaintiffs'] allegations as true,........

"This is important because she approved the Plaintiffs' motion for leave to file a supplemental complaint based on ALPA's misconduct at the seniority integration arbitration."
"the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings."

The camel's nose now enters the tent....Anyone up for putting some good, old fashioned Alpoid "Spin" on any of the above? I don't have much faith that simple FUD will entirely suffice regarding: "the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings."
 
Speaking of facts: Is there any truth to the rumour that Alpa's "forgiven" any individual(s) financial issues for the west membership?... and by so doing; reinstated any to "good standing"?..That's an honest question on my part, as that seems absurd to me, but has circulated around a bit regardless...and I'm no great personal fan of FUD from any sources. We may fully disagree on virtually everything, but I'm not interested in accepting, nor putting out BS. I'm sure we'll find no common accord on my last statement for that matter ;) Still = True or False on the Alpa "forgiveness" question, if you will sir.
It's my understanding that this has occurred on both sides, likely to secure more votes than they would normally get. I doubt that t works, since in most cases it wasn't the money tht was the issue, but rather some fundamental disagreement with ALPA.
 
My son was home this week-end from college and I told him "Son, don't become an airline pilot, get a law degree from the best law school possible. Then one day you can buy your own airplane"

No matter who wins, ALPA or USAPA , the only real winners will be the lawyers.
 
Anyone up for putting some good, old fashioned Alpoid "Spin" on any of the above?
I have no doubt that that's how it will be labeled by some, but it's interesting that the only entity that considered the MDA pilots active mainline at the time the merger was announced was ALPA National - which considered the MDA pilots "recalled to mainline" the entire time MDA existed (or in the case of the CEL pilots, not recalled since they weren't furloughed in the first place but considered "mainline" none-the-less). Only the East MEC and the company (plus some individual "mainline" pilots) claimed otherwise.

It's also worth noting that it appears it wouldn't have made a large difference in the Nic list, although that would depend in some part to where Nic slotted the E170 Capt jobs into the other mainline jobs - immediately following Group II Captain jobs (as the next lower group of Captain jobs) would have been the best outcome or after Group II F/O's (since the MDA Captain pay was less) would have been the worst outcome. If the first were used, the top 150-175 East "furloughees" would have been higher up the list than they ended up. If it were the second, there'd be no change.

Jim
 
My son was home this week-end from college and I told him "Son, don't become an airline pilot, get a law degree from the best law school possible. Then one day you can buy your own airplane"

No matter who wins, ALPA or USAPA , the only real winners will be the lawyers.

Sound wisdom from my perspective sir, although I'd suggest medical school instead. Decent physicians needn't ever fret about who's "side" they're on, nor have to undergo any traumatic removal of their moral structures just to successfully practice their craft.
 
Sound wisdom from my perspective sir, although I'd suggest medical school instead. Decent physicians needn't ever fret about who's "side" they're on, nor have to undergo any traumatic removal of their moral structures just to successfully practice their craft.

True, true indeed !
 
17 days to go.....

16 days and 20 hours now...but..who's counting? :lol: Whew!..Do I feel the love from Alpa today:

2 Pamphlets, 4 standard-issue FUD missles in envelope cloaking, and one huge, glossy, and doubltess very expensive, magazine format production = "The Pilots Union", telling me everything they supposedly do...just in case I hadn't paid any attention for the last quarter-century or so. I'd be seriously impressed...if it weren't for any even slight aspects of actual reality to factor in :rolleyes: It seems that they're no longer satisfied with merely being an allegedly "National Union", but are now hyping the "Advantages of an International Union"....words truly fail to do justice...
 
I have no doubt that that's how it will be labeled by some, but it's interesting that the only entity that considered the MDA pilots active mainline at the time the merger was announced was ALPA National - which considered the MDA pilots "recalled to mainline" the entire time MDA existed (or in the case of the CEL pilots, not recalled since they weren't furloughed in the first place but considered "mainline" none-the-less). Only the East MEC and the company (plus some individual "mainline" pilots) claimed otherwise.

It's also worth noting that it appears it wouldn't have made a large difference in the Nic list, although that would depend in some part to where Nic slotted the E170 Capt jobs into the other mainline jobs - immediately following Group II Captain jobs (as the next lower group of Captain jobs) would have been the best outcome or after Group II F/O's (since the MDA Captain pay was less) would have been the worst outcome. If the first were used, the top 150-175 East "furloughees" would have been higher up the list than they ended up. If it were the second, there'd be no change.

Jim

Let us then begin with: "the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings." Your observation is that: "...it's interesting that the only entity that considered the MDA pilots active mainline at the time the merger was announced was ALPA National - which considered the MDA pilots "recalled to mainline". OK then...what did Alpa "national" actually DO for the MDA people in that case? Herndon's shown zero reluctance towards even expunging LEC members at their whim (PHL)...and yet they had some apparent "problem" with interfacing with the East MEC so as to properly represent the MDA folks? If we're in agreement that Alpa national had the knowledge that the MDA were not being fairly represented via being shown as furloughed...and they failed to do anything about it...well: What actually IS the supposed overall job description for Alpa "national"?...if any?

"It's also worth noting that it appears it wouldn't have made a large difference in the Nic list..." I'll simply offer that it would have made a difference...period. A bogus list's still a bogus list, whether by even so much as a single pilot being improperly left out, and/or whether due to neglectfull, improperly administered, or contrived process.

The bottom line for me? = Alpa national evidently had full knowledge of the injustices relating to the ommited MDA pilots. Prater still "blessed" the Nic list. Alpa's "Sworn to defend" a list that they well know to be based on incorrect data....and...all are supposed to somehow be "OK" with that. Sounds perfectly "reasonable" to me......
 
What actually IS the supposed overall job description for Alpa "national"?


Alas, alak. My, my, my... How fleeting your realization of truth is... how quickly you have forgotten that it is ALPA INTERNATIONAL. Gee whiz with such forgetful members, is it any wonder that John Prater's, Donn's, Garland's, Marshall's, Lance's, etc. interventionist policies are necessary to save us from forgetful blunders? Just be thankful we have such a long list of interventioners with ALPA!

Can you imagine how dangerous it would be to allow us to vote if we forget that ALPA is INTERNATIONAL just one or two posts after having come to the realization? Perish the thought! Save us Lance.
 
Alas, alak. My, my, my... How fleeting your realization of truth is... how quickly you have forgotten that it is ALPA INTERNATIONAL. Gee whiz with such forgetful members, is it any wonder that John Prater's, Donn's, Garland's, Marshall's, Lance's, etc. interventionist policies are necessary to save us from forgetful blunders? Just be thankful we have such a long list of interventioners with ALPA!

Can you imagine how dangerous it would be to allow us to vote if we forget that ALPA is INTERNATIONAL just one or two posts after having come to the realization? Perish the thought! Save us Lance.

Arrgh!... I can only beg forgiveness for my heretical oversight!!...and so soon after they just sent that fabulous magazine out......"We're not worthy"/etc :lol:

Hey!..Don't!..NO!!...Help!. :shock: ..Please just waitta' minute here for instant and proper amends on my part!...I'll have to return to my previous, and now unseemly gripe, but with properly respectfull terminology = Ummm...Exactly WTF did "Alpa"...ummm..."International" do for the MDA people?..other than "bless" the known-by-them-to-be-bogus "list"? You know? = The "list" that, by their brilliant ommision, staples those folks beneath the most junior AWA new-hires? :lol: On reflection though; Those then working at MDA, under Alpa's tenderest blessings and guidance...plainly just can't take a little "joke" I guess. Some people have no sense of humour anymore....
 
Arrgh!... I can only beg forgiveness for my heretical oversight!!...and so soon after they just sent that fabulous magazine out......"We're not worthy"/etc :lol:

Hey!..Don't!..NO!!...Help!. :shock: ..Please just waitta' minute here for instant and proper amends on my part!...I'll have to return to my previous, and now unseemly gripe, but with properly respectfull terminology = Ummm...Exactly WTF did "Alpa"...ummm..."International" do for the MDA people?..other than "bless" the known-by-them-to-be-bogus "list"? :lol:


Excuse me.. ALPA INTERNATIONAL merely provides a merger process (and it is a good thing too since the membership has such a short memory). If we didn't allow any consideration of the meaning of such terms as "fair and equitable" or "windfall" then why should you suppose that we would start allowing a fixed meaning of the term "list"? Focus on the process, please. :lol:
 
Excuse me.. ALPA INTERNATIONAL merely provides a merger process (and it is a good thing too since the membership has such a short memory). If we didn't allow any consideration of the meaning of such terms as "fair and equitable" or "windfall" then why should you suppose that we would start allowing a fixed meaning of the term "list"? Focus on the process, please. :lol:

Master Po: I try and try, yet; I do not yet understand this wisdom....I study the FUD and meditate for days and nights....and yet I fear that I will never gain understanding of the great mystery of the "process", and am destined to never truly know the ways of Alpo.. :blink: With your blessings...I shall take a pilgrimage, for only in the West and within the Halls of Herndon are there men with the enlightened awareness that any one man's single year is worth more than twenty of another's life..and I fear that I shall remain troubled and confused without their spiritual guidance.
 
So you clowns again can't defend yourself with facts. I want just one of you geniuses to show me where the facts of post #27 are not true. Thats right facts don't matter to you.
Fact Leonidas: Doug M. will not be on the negotiating advisory committee. His quote: "I think we need fresh faces on the committee". As for the rest of the post written by Tom S. it is complete and total BS. So for you its a fact, for me its FUD.

BTW. Nice try again. Your reliance on East ALPA shills for your source of "Facts" and "information" just shows how gullible you are. Maybe if you hang around these gentleman reps for a while you will know what I mean.
 
Post 38 contains (as usual) nothing of substance, let alone fact, in it.
There was a fact in it. To bad you can't read well enough to see it. This is the fact honey:
But since that was written, Mowery has said he will hold NO, that's zero, nada any type of negotiating position with USAPA.
Your problem is you can't tell real facts from FUD. BTW. Buttkovic was never really fired. Ever! And we're still stuck with him for 17 more days. If you're going to rely on a EAST ALPA supporter for your facts, I would suggest you check it out before posting. Your credibility has gone down even further, and coming from someone in your position. I am disappointed you can't come up with something better.
 
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