ALPA/USAPA/West thread 3/30-4/5

[Pilot692]

So when I post questions and arguments it's goading?

The facts are these:

The reps for PHX and LAS have either not been picked or they are secret. This situation will not change until after the vote.

These reps will be appointed to eighteen month terms. They will not be subject to recall or to the will of the membership.

Usapa will be negotiating a new contract and a new seniority list during this eighteen month period.

Usapa has stated that they want to put east furloughees ahead of west captains.


Unless you can challenge any of the above you are doing nothing but providing spin.

No bump....no flush...the AWA captain remains an AWA captain. And I believe USAPA will be using a type of schedule where there would be varying election dates for bases, so everything doesn't happen at once. I think you will find a greater concern, minute one, for the west folks, then people are expecting. The implosion of ALPA has already begun. You'd hate to be taken out by the debris.

 

[EastUS]

First of all I was questioning you as to why a temporary ALPA appointee is a shill while a more or less permanent USAPA appointee is not.

Second, what was the DALPA reps motivation? I understand that as an ALPA rep he is inherently evil, but specifically why did he need to perpetuate this evil deed.

Third, to answer your question, I am not interested in anyone representing me who has an 18 month free ride of unaccountability. If he/she can't be democratically selected or replaced then he/she is a trustee not a representative.

For your first sir? = Said "temporary Alpa Appointees" ARE indeed shills due to the clear fact that they were'nt elected, and are replacing reps that were simply yanked out of their slots for purely the political whims of Herndon, in order to stack the deck as much as possible, clearly and entirely only for Herndon's interests. The PHL council was the most vehemently outspoken segment...they "had to go" it seems. Note the there existed no sentiment from the PHL line pilots that supported Herndon in their little "purge". Contrary-wise: the CLT council's long been teh most infamous "Nest of Alpoid-wimps" in the system..and they've been made "recall-proof" via Herndon's utter disregard for theri own supposed "rules", and by them arrogantly ignoring the recall movement filed last December. There's "democratic process" in action for you.

"Second, what was the DALPA reps motivation?" A fair question. Do you honestly know? Perhaps a better question = "WTF is some Delta person doing meddling with the internal affairs of US's Pilots at ALL? Do you know? The PHL pilots line don't, nor did they wish to see this happen. "but specifically why did he need to perpetuate this evil deed." No requisite "spin" for that. The PHL council wasn't buying the "Alpo Line", Nic/Loyalty Oaths/etc..and were continually running up the BS Flag...hence they "had to go". Were they the least bit "guilty" of failing to represent their actual constituents on ANY level? = NO..but they didn't blindly "play along" with mighty Herndon.

For your third: I fully agree that you've every right to be upset about that...naturally, and only assuming that the you/the west are even making the slightest attempts at making your wishes known. If not?...you're being extremely unreasonable, imho. What are the USAPA people supposed to do?..Read your minds in order to guess at your preferences?

"The reps for PHX and LAS have either not been picked or they are secret. This situation will not change until after the vote." You know this for a fact?...How? Has ANYONE out west started even the slightest notion towards collective communication with USAPA?... NO?...That's what I thought. SO, if I get this right: The West position's to vote Alpa, do NO/ZIP/ZERO communicating with the east/USAPA..and then scream after their unknown preferences weren't mystically taken into account...Puhleeaze sir..That fails even the slightest test of reason, and you must certainly know that.

"Electing a dictator would be considered a democracy in your book." I think NOT. We've an established Dictatorship via Herndon..and we want that..GONE.

 

[b737fo]

"The reps for PHX and LAS have either not been picked or they are secret. This situation will not change until after the vote." You know this for a fact?...How? Has ANYONE out west started even the slightest notion towards collective communication with USAPA?... NO?...That's what I thought. SO, if I get this right: The West position's to vote Alpa, do NO/ZIP/ZERO communicating with the east/USAPA..and then scream after their unknown preferences weren't mystically taken into account...Puhleeaze sir..That fails even the slightest test of reason, and you must certainly know that.

So now the USAPS want collective communication. Where was the olive branch for collective communication when their C&BLs were being formed? More specifically what was the the input that this group received from their desired constituents out West in regards to item D of the "Objectives of the USAPA"? Oh yeah I don't remember that "great democratic idealistic organization" asking the left side of the country what they envision in a new union. That is what fails my test of reason. :down:

 

[EastUS]

This can not happen according to the alpa media blitz at US Airways;

If you remain with ALPA, you will get…

* More money in your pockets
* More professional negotiators working for you
* More protection during future industry consolidation
* More health and retirement benefits for your family
* More experience and reliability in workplace safety and security issues

Blasphemy!! You left out:

Forty acres AND a mule.
Pie-in-the-sky, by and by, when you die.
And of course...some sizeable numbers of "virgins" in Paradise....or at least, perhaps an Alpo-Goat or two

b737fo: "So now the USAPS want collective communication. Where was the olive branch for collective communication when their C&BLs were being formed? More specifically what was the the input that this group received from their desired constituents out West in regards to item D of the "Objectives of the USAPA"? Oh yeah I don't remember that "great democratic idealistic organization" asking the left side of the country what they envision in a new union. That is what fails my test of reason" What fails my/any "test of reason" is what you expect when all that's thus far been heard from the west is threats of "All out Warfare"...not too mention "assault" by some toy "ARMY" of ferocious, sticker-planting morons. Are you now implying that any/all out west are magically now willing to talk? If so; back it up with actual input, not whining. It ill serves USAPA/all of us to remain conversationally isolated from each other.

"Where was the olive branch...?" Where was/is the west? Where "was" I/any fully "got" = "You won't even get 200 cards!!...It's OVER!!" and of course "Ho ho ho..St Nic is coming to town"..Does ANY of that "angry-adolescent" BS qualify in your mind as anything remotely approaching viable "input"? If not; perhaps it's finally time for some.

 

[b737fo]

"Where was the olive branch...?" Where was/is the west? Where "was" I/any fully "got" = "You won't even get 200 cards!!...It's OVER!!" and of course "Ho ho ho..St Nic is coming to town"..Does ANY of that "angry-adolescent" BS qualify in your mind as anything remotely approaching viable "input"? If not; perhaps it's finally time for some.

No that doesn't qualify as valuable input but then again neither does "I would cross your picket line" or labeling an entire group a bunch of "undercutting drunk drug runners". This is pretty much what this board has become week in and week out.

How about this for some non adolescent input? Let's dump that item D I referenced out of the C&BL of USAPA. Maybe valuable input could have also come from the JNC which included ALPA and USAPA supporters. I highly doubt that the leaders of the USAPS could have possibly been looking for valuable input from the West during the founding of their group as evidenced by the private forum that existed solely for the exclusive use of just 60% of this pilot group.

More valuable input to follow when I know who my reps will be to feed my input to if the USAPS claim victory over that other oppressive regime that causes airlines to fail.

 

[sharktooth]

So now the USAPS want collective communication. Where was the olive branch for collective communication when their C&BLs were being formed? More specifically what was the the input that this group received from their desired constituents out West in regards to item D of the "Objectives of the USAPA"? Oh yeah I don't remember that "great democratic idealistic organization" asking the left side of the country what they envision in a new union. That is what fails my test of reason. :down:

Did anyone from out west try to provide input? Proof?

I know I solicited members of this very board to participate in building a CB&L so please don't say not one pilot had a chance. Both sides have a chance to build a great work experience. It will not be easy.

It would be a shame if the PHX and LAS reps have not spent any time on a "plan B - what if the vote goes for USAPA" for their constituents. In fact, that in itself could be grounds for a DFR against the PHX and LAS reps.

 

[EastUS]

More valuable input to follow when I know who my reps will be to feed my input to if the USAPS claim victory over that other oppressive regime that causes airlines to fail.

Again: Who do you want them to be?..and...what's being communicated on that issue?..and..by whom?

It's hardly been difficult for any observers to "feel the love" west-east ever since Nic. We are where we are. It's best for us to deal with it in as mutually satisfactory fashion as can be made possible. I hardly expect any "group hugs" to spring forth...but..we'd best start communicating. Frankly; If the west seeks some "All out Warfare"..I couldn't possibly care less on any personal level, especially after all the BS I've seen here. "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". If there's the slightest possible reason for having ANY "Respect" for any such "It's ALL about MEEE!!" individual or affiliated group...well...it's escaped me entirely. I fully expect the feeling to be mutual. Well and good and all..but that doesn't help any/all towards advancing our collective position as mutual "hostages" within this corporate clusterf--k.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So now the USAPS want collective communication. Where was the olive branch for collective communication when their C&BLs were being formed? More specifically what was the the input that this group received from their desired constituents out West in regards to item D of the "Objectives of the USAPA"? Oh yeah I don't remember that "great democratic idealistic organization" asking the left side of the country what they envision in a new union. That is what fails my test of reason. :down:

Because you want it ALL!

You are ENTITLED to be number ONE TODAY!

YOU ARE THE MAN!

Your test of reason is WHY we are having a VOTE!

Your "subjective" test of reason is TRUMPED by the true measure of "objectiveness".....A VOTE!

ALPA continues to tell us (East guys, I'm sure your not getting this mail tripe WERE getting) that the services THEY provide are BETTER....BETTER THAB WHAT? USAPA has PROVEN that EVERY SERVICE THEY PROVIDE USAPA can provide.

The REASON FED EX and several other unions join ALPA is that they are resource limited....resource limited in PILOTS ACTUALLY KNOWING AND WORKING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Not that YOU would care. Under ALPA and Nic I am junior to a guy who was hired 13 years AFTER me who had NO CAREER expectations of flying anything but a B757 out of PHX/LAS. And I'm SENIOR over here and never been furloughed.

SO MUCH FOR SENIORITY! I have 22 years now. How many do you have?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Hey Guys.....Read THIS!!!

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2008-0...nterstitialskip

Northwest has raised prices on international flights, plans to freeze new hiring of pilots and flight attendants, and will cut its domestic schedule by 5% beginning in September.

"The airline industry is always a lousy place to put your money, but these events in the industry, there isn't one consistent thread you can point to, especially with ATA," he said. "Fuel prices could be 10 cents a gallon, and they'd still go down.

"The only real common denominator here is they all had airplanes."

Northwest said it wanted to move quickly to preserve cash, which stood at a hefty $3 billion at the end of 2007.

The Air Line Pilots Association called the moves "practical given the current economic environment."

Now, reconcile this statement with that of all the ALPA MEC chairman statements who say that basically it is BAD MANAGEMENT!

When the price of Jet-A, a COMMODITY that aircraft DRINK, becomes THE MAJOR SINGLE ITEM COST FACTOR ON THE BALANCE SHEET, all of the rest of the items on the sheet become superfluous....FUEL is the driving factor for a JOB.

Can anyone tell ME what ADVANTAGE the ATA/ALOHA/FREEDOM/CHAMPION pilots have as ALPA unions? Will THEY capture THEIR SENIORITY WITH ANOTHER CARRIER? NO! Unfortunately they won't.

For US here at US Airways, BEING AN ALPA CARRIER IS A HINDERENCE at ANY CARRIER when the protections of seniority are lost and the only "career" expectation you can count on is the possibility of a job flying night freight on a Beech 18.

My "paycheck" says US Airways. Their paychecks say something else. When MY paycheck comes from the same source as every other pilot in this country....I'll reconsider my loyalty. Until then, you know where to find me.

My loyalty rests ONLY with US Airways pilots with one common denominator.....SENIORITY.

ALL THE OTHER SERVICES IN THE WORLD MATTER FOR NOTHING IF YOU DON'T HAVE A JOB TO PAY FOR THEM!

EVERYONE WORKING FOR AN AIRLINE BETTER REMEMBER THAT!

 

[nycbusdriver]

In point of fact we don't know who all the reps are. Three bases are still listed as either TBD or have been chosen but are being kept "secret".

If this is not true please list the names of the PHX, LAS and CLT reps.

Electing a dictator would be considered a democracy in your book.

So If I choose to vote for USAPA I am voting for unknown reps who will hold their positions, without threat of recall, for eighteen months while they negotiate a new contract and a new seniority list. Sounds democratic to me.

If the westies didn't act like a bunch of high school hooligans abusing steroids, USAPA would probably have announced those reps already. There is no upside for USAPA to announce west reps early in the process. There is little question that the vast majority of west pilots will vote ALPA, or already have. The small percentage of those westies who might actually see the advantage of an independent union will likely vote USAPA anyway fully accepting the reasons for the privacy of those PHX and LAS reps for now.

The CLT reps have already been announced, and the PHX and LAS are TBA, not TBD. http://1.usairlinepilots.org/Structure_and_Staffing.htm

For folks like you who have made up their mind already, why should USAPA kowtow to any any of your demands? There is nothing in it for them.

 

[Bear96]

Can anyone tell ME what ADVANTAGE the ATA/ALOHA/FREEDOM/CHAMPION pilots have as ALPA unions? Will THEY capture THEIR SENIORITY WITH ANOTHER CARRIER? NO! Unfortunately they won't.

So should USAPA win the election and these pilots get hired by LCC, USAPA will ensure their LCC seniority is their DOH from ATA/Aloha/Freedom/Champion?

Interesting.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So should USAPA win the election and these pilots get hired by LCC, USAPA will ensure their LCC seniority is their DOH from ATA/Aloha/Freedom/Champion?

Interesting.

If LCC buys assets like planes AND routes from those carriers, then they should take the employees too. That goes for any other carrier that does the same, be it UAL,DAL, NWA or anyone else. In that case, DOH would be reasonable, but who decides which employees would go? I just can't see why anyone would be screaming to get into some of those markets that were doing so poorly.

There needs to be a distinction between "seniority" and "longevity". Also, once the "purchased" carrier is already out of business, it's a different story.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So should USAPA win the election and these pilots get hired by LCC, USAPA will ensure their LCC seniority is their DOH from ATA/Aloha/Freedom/Champion?

Interesting.

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR Of course not. If you would like to point out the absurdity of YOUR silly point, then I should agree with you that they should have the West pilots jobs too! There...that's a good retort! You wish to make an illogical statement, then I will too and argue on a level that only Bear96 "seems" to understand.

What YOU seem to think is that BEAR96 law reigns supreme.

INTERESTING!

The point here is that USAPA WILL NOT RECOGNIZE THEIR SENIORITY WITH THEIR PRIOR CARRIER ANYMORE THAN ALPA WILL.

And THAT MA'AM, is the POINT! IT IS USELESS TO HAVE A NATIONAL UNION WHERE SENIORITY MEANS WHAT BEAR96 THINKS IT SHOULD MEAN....a person who has NO EXPERIENCE in this industry other than to drive a wedge, a person that is the ANTITHESIS of what a labor union is all about....to force MINORITY interests on the MAJORITY. I'll bet you're voting for Hillary, too. I guess in your mind it take's a (AWA) village!

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE, LADY!

YOU HATE DOH. YOUR HUSBAND HATES DOH. AWA PILOTS HATE USAPA. LAWYERS HATE DOH. ALPA HATES DOH.

WE GOT THAT ALREADY!

I'M NOT VOTING FOR ALPA and if the +3,200 other pilots vote the same we will PROVE you to be WRONG!

Not because we want too, but because we HAVE TOO! In fact, Nic does exactly what you imply here: AWA pilots take OUR JOBS!

AWA PRAYER.....In the name of the Father (Nicolau), Son (Nicolau), and the Holy Ghost (Nicolau)....AMEN!

Make NO MISTAKE...your "lawyer" days are numbered, lady.

WE RELISH THE LAWSUIT SO BRING....IT.....ON!!!!

If unions are going to COMPETE in the marketplace, which is what West pilots want (a "first come, first serve" mentality) then ANY LABOR union is useless! If THOSE pilots need/want a flying job, they will have to COMPETE in the marketplace....just like WE WILL....unless AND until pilots can COME TOGETHER, UNDER ONE BANNER, WITH A SINGLE STANDARD OF VALUE AND REMUNERATION....or having a NATIONAL UNION is IRRELELVANT.

Arguing with YOU is pointless.

USAPA represents OUR PILOTS and OUR PILOTS ONLY! If the West wants to participate, that is their choice....but it's a choice NONETHELESS! If West pilots choose a "scortched earth" policy, so be it. Just remember....you play with fire, you get burned.

Almost everyone on this forum know who YOU are and think you are irrelevant.....including me. I just have a few minutes to have some fun and point you out to those who know your "ways".

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

MODERATOR NOTE: This post is a great example of how to get a suspension. As a reminder, there is a ZERO tolerance policy for personal attacks--ONE strike and you're out.

Keep on subject and stop insulting each other. It's fine to disagree but attacks will not be tolerated.

 

[EastUS]

So should USAPA win the election and these pilots get hired by LCC, USAPA will ensure their LCC seniority is their DOH from ATA/Aloha/Freedom/Champion?

Interesting.

What's "interesting" is the amount of apparent desperation seen from such a feeble posting If assets and employees are absorbed at some future date, I'd expect DOH, yes. As the mentioned pilots in your cases would come from extinct operations, and be applying for employment rather than being merged in, I'd think not. As for mergers though, and given that USAPA's policy is DOH: Can you even begine to imagine finding any "Westies" in favor placing any merging pilots in front of them for ANY reason in the future?.... especially using the "minor consideration" of such a "slight notion" as DOH?...Ummm..sure...I'm very certain that they'd be in the very throes of ecstacy over even the thought of treating any inbound additional "fellow pilots" with such kindness...as we've clearly seen the true generosity of the west spirit fully demonstrated. Question raised against your lightly tossed pebble = What would Alpo do in said cases? Moreover; What's Alpo actually DOING for any of these unfortunate folks? ..Anything?...anything at all? After all: They're the much touted, but actually only fantasized "National Association", or..excuse me "INTERNATIONAL" Association :down: Of course..it's truly only the alleged "leadership" at Herndon that makes the oft-published claim of being a "National/International" ANYTHING. They feel the apparent need to do so, presumably in order to justify making themselves millionaires from dues paid monies from the actually working pilots. Oh yes...Alpa's the great "answer" all right, and the provider of All within pilot careers...just ask them. Spare us all. Absent those absurdly blinded by St Nic's amazing aura....it's hard to find anyone hereabouts, much in favor of Alpa at any level.

 

[end_of_alpa]

If LCC buys assets like planes and routes from those carriers, then they should take the employees too. That goes for any other carrier that does the same, be it UAL,DAL, NWA or anyone else. In that case, DOH would be reasonable, but who decides which employees would go? I just can't see why anyone would be screaming to get into some of those markets that were doing so poorly.

IF LCC buys "assets" ALPA has NEVER BEEN A UNION to take "employees" with them....pilots or others. Employees are "linked" to "employment". US Airways "employs" you. ATA, DAl, NWA, UAL, Freedom, ALOHA and all the others DON'T!

Assets (planes and routes) and employees are NOT likned and never has been. ALPA will no more do what you imply as they always have.....chanting the same mantra as the AWA "we saved you" mentality.

If LCC were to acquire, say, B757-300LRs from ATA I doubt the routes would be the same, but EVEN IF THEY WERE I seriously DOUBT that our pilots from EITHER side would advocate giving them DOH after their company, not ours, put them on the street.