ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[BoeingBoy]

When a west pilot advocates for separate contract neg with the company I would say you have welcomed us into your debate.

Just curious, did you feel the same when it was the East demanding separate contract negotiations?

I don't remember our CEO in front of congress asking for a hand out just days after 9-11.

I'll forgive you for not remembering - you probably didn't watch the hearings like I did. Wolf was there, along with several other airline execs.

Jim

 

[Tim Nelson]

While it's easy to point fingers with 20/20 hindsight, I personally feel that one should judge decisions within the context of the circumstances when they were made. Recall that when that decision was made - a couple of months before the merger was officially comsumated upon BK exit - everyone was optimistic that things would go relatively smoothly - a joint contract would be negotiated, seniority issues would be settled to at least the grudging acceptance of both sides, etc. In that context, putting all the effort into getting a joint contract probably seemed like a good idea - I'm not sure anyone could have foreseen the mess that would exist 2-1/2 years later. But at least someone was smart enough to leave open the option of resuming West section 6 negotiations.

Jim

With fleet service, we have the same issues. IMO, section 6 is most sacred and critical in this industry. Never can we lose sight of that. At any rate, I actually take my hat off to the west ALPA leaders who are forcing the company back to section 6. Section 6 is in the agreement and it is non-negotiable so I doubt the company wants section 6. Section 6 negotiations for the west ALSO benefits the east. What I find interesting is that USAPA will be duty bound to enforce this section 6 for the west OR the west pilots could file a DFR. Regardless of seniority issues, both pilot groups should welcome west section 6's. Seniority will work itself out internally but wages and benefits must be protected through section 6 since the company has given no indication it has the management skills that can find a solution to a fair transition agreement.

To that end, I have been begging the IAM to re-commence section 6 for the west siders because even though there isn't the same contention over seniority issues as the pilots have, 8,000 IAM members are in la la land getting 'hoodwinked' by a management team that sez it wants a transition agreement but its actions suggest it is really just avoiding section 6.

Difficult issues indeed but I was impressed that ALPA west had the insight to re-commence section 6. Forcing section 6 on the company will most definately be a variable towards solving the solution to a fair contract.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[usairfa05]

Our union has always wanted one contract for one work group. This issue has been put to bed for us. I worked both East and West and have had the chance to see both contracts at work. Our reps are working trying to get the best contract for our group. I do recall our CEO asking congress to re open DCA and testifying that our bottom line was suffering. What stuck out in my mind was seeing Mr. Parker there asking for money to line his pockets when impact to his operation was minimal.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Tim,

I basically agree with your sentiments. It was just the "side with the INTL ALPA Bosses" that I was responding to. Given the optimism at the time the decision was made, I'm not sure it was necessarily "bowing" to anyone. My sense at the time was that it was more of a "why use negotiating resources/time for section 6 when the joint contract will accomplish the same thing and has to be negotiated anyway - so let's put all the effort into that."

Obviously, though, that was a West MEC decision of which I was only a distant observer so could be wrong.

Jim

 

[Hey.. Chill Out]

I hope you guys can succeed at this and eventually strike. that will be the only thing Parker recognizes. These mediocre gatherings mean NOTHING as they give us no leverage.

That will set a precedent for our fleet union hopefully and we can follow up on your efforts.

Glad to see someone finally grew a pair and is taking action. There should be NO room for concessions to the company. Our labor and professionalism should NOT be sacrificed for high fuel prices and cost of doing business.

 

[sharktooth]

BoeingBoy and exB717Flyer have the hit the nail on the head.

This dispute between East and West is not about seniority. It is about the definition of seniority.

Rather than making up ones own definition of seniority system, I can rely on two sources:

Seniority System
Any system or arrangement which recognizes length of service in promotions, layoffs, etc.

from: page 1362 of Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition.

Also:

seniority

Main Entry:
se·nior·i·ty
Pronunciation:
\sēn-ˈyȯr-ə-tē, -ˈyär-\
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century
1 : the quality or state of being senior : priority
2 : a privileged status attained by length of service (as in a company or craft)

from: Merriam-Websters Dictionary, 2002.

Which should take care of both interpretations.

Note the reliance on "length of service" from both sources. Wonder why that is.

ALPA's merger policy was changed long ago to reflect the fundamental changes in the industry caused by deregulation.

Not historically accurate, at all.

The changes were made because the UAL MEC was afraid of how a DOH merger would affect their seniority and no argument was ever put forth that "deregulation changed everything", as I read you.

You may wish to read up on the notes from the 1992 BOD, if still available.

 

[b737fo]

This confirms what we thought all along -- the America West pilots are a group of selfish, self-centered, ego-maniacal, self-serving slugs of society. All they care about is getting to fly the A330, as evident in the press release. From flying for a desert hopping, broke down, worthless airline to suddenly feeling entitled to fly transatlantic routes and take seniority from their "brothers and sisters" on the East. What a sick joke. The way that the HP pilots have handled this entire thing leaves a nasty smear on the entire aviation industry and certainly on anyone who truly respects and supports a labor union. Brothers and sisters, my a$$!! If you were truly brothers and sisters, you would have agreed to DOH integration. SICK, SICK, SICK.

USAPA ALL THE WAY!

BTW -- this is a feeble attempt that will mean absolutely nothing in a month or so. All this is doing is further alienating the HP group from their new union, USAPA.

What is truly sick is your attitude to the West's flying. Of course the West would negotiate an A330 LOA. What gives you the right to feel the entitlement to fly potential Europe routes out of PHX?

"Desert hopping, broke down"? If that makes you sleep better at night then power to you but I would hardly characterize the previous AWA as such a place. Broke down, really? Turning profits with new aircraft on order. Whatever.

Oh did not know the vote was done already. Thanks for counting all the ballots for us!

 

[freedom]

and so the war continues ............

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not historically accurate, at all.

Actually, very historically accurate. You're talking about who wanted the change. The explaination of the changes in the industry following deregulation provides the "why".

Jim

 

[dariencc]

Make that a Red Dawn. Wolverines!!!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/

Yeah!!!!! I never miss a C. Thomas Howell movie! And Patrick Swayze? Like wow, man, did he give you a woody?


You guys have really got the East scared now. Don't think too many of them actually saw the flick, since it was marketed to teenagers and most of that group of meanies was already on the line. But I'm a huge fan and I'll talk it up. When the culturally illiterate Easties get their first look at good cinema, and see Jennifer Grey locked and loaded and ready to blow away some Russkies, they'll know you mean business.


Wolverines!!!!!!

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Sharktooth -

Those definitions were certainly well cut-and-pasted. I couldn't have done any better myself.

But what about the definition of airline seniority? To be more specific and more pertinent, what is the definition of pilot seniority when two airlines merge?

This is the question everyone wants answered.

But you know what? The process of answering that question is impossibly complicated. The word chaotic comes to mind. So guess what? We have another process we can all use.

Its called negotiation, mediation, arbitration. And guess what else?

Been there.

Done that.

Answer found.

So, until someone comes up with a better definition, and a legal way to override what we have, it looks like NIC-NIC time for all.

 

[N924PS]

Where does it say anything about flying transatlantic routes? These 330 negotiations are for out west flying. Besides I don't know of ANYONE out west who wants to commute across the country to do red-eye A330 flying. This is one self-serving slug who says "you can have it". And BTW, maybe if you were truly brothers and sisters you would've agreed to play by the rules.

They did play by the rules.

The Nicolau Award is the result of playing by the rules.

 

[b737fo]

NIC-NIC might be nice nice but what happens when your Vaunted Management Team drives the East Coast short haul traveler completely away? Who will be left to pay your salary? Ma & Pa Kettle?

Um so this would only happen if the Nic arbitration is implemented but not if USAPA has it's way? Are you saying company survival is based on pilot DOH?

 

[b737fo]

Not at all. Actually what I'm saying is that a real proactive Management Team would have never let it come to this.

This situation could lead to the demise of US Airways and all it would have taken is some good old fashioned horse trading and some good faith bargaining. I'll gently remind you just which management team is currently at the helm. HINT It ain't the one in Crystal City

Well I also wasn't impressed with the one in Crystal City either.

On another subject it was nice to see Lee Seham defend the concept of separate ratification votes for a new contract under ALPA. I hope his compelling points on defending one's interests by voting in such a manner will also be used by USAPA if they win.

 

[b737fo]

Can't comment on either parties law firms as I'm not terribly impressed with either.

The Crystal City folks were a lot more hard nosed and hard boiled. Like them or don't they got deals done and through Bruce Lakefields leadership they got an absolute basket case to the merger table. According to some just in the nick of time.

Personally I think the old US Airways would still be here but it certainly wasn't a slam dunk and the merger at the time made sense for all involved.

I'll trust you on that considering you were a lot closer to that situation. In Tempe pre merger days the management team was forward thinking and highly adaptive in their pricing structure in a rapidly changing market. At the time they had brought a company out of bankruptcy to a point where AWA was turning a profit with very healthy margins. Aircraft on order and all employee groups hiring too. That was then of course and we see how well the ship has run since then.