ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[Elevation]

myview

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Posts: 8
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Member No.: 14,531

Somebody got a new account! And is off and running...who could it be? I wonder...

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Wow, myview!!!

You sure have that cut-and-paste thing honed to a fine skill. What you didn't cut and paste is that the seniority you are refering to in those missives is seniority WITHIN the respective pilot groups. You know - west and east. What you copied has nothing to do with the merged lists - those words carry absolutely no weight what-so-ever.

Now, since apparently you are new here, you might consider getting up to date - that particular argument was dragged across these boards long, long ago. Worthless then, worthless today, and worthless tomorrow.

And perhaps you can explain, in detail, just why you choose to describe the Nicolau Seniority Integration Decision as "flawed." It is real easy to throw cute words around like that, but much more difficult to provide a logical argument as to why you write such drivel.

Furthermore, why is it your own fusapa land-shark has told you that the Nic most likely cannot be overturned? Why would your legal beagle say that? Yes it is on tape - so don't try one of your typical eastie two steps and deny it ever happened.

You see, the only way DOH will ever see the light of day is if the West group - the ones with integrity - agree to it. Don't hold your breath. On second thought, go ahead - hold your breath.

INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[767jetz]

The fact that the arbitration did NOT even abide by ALPA guidance that neither side should get a windfall is enought to invalidate it.

Incorrect statement. Just shows how you selectively interpret things. No wonder the East was disappointed with the results of arbitration.

ALPA merger policy says that neither side should get a windfall at the expense of the other. A small but significant distinction from your version.

 

[myview]

What you didn't cut and paste is that the seniority you are refering to in those missives is seniority WITHIN the respective pilot groups. You know - west and east. What you copied has nothing to do with the merged lists - those words carry absolutely no weight what-so-ever.

You're right, I didn't paste a merged list onto the post. And do you know why I didn't? Because there is no merged list. That is what still remains to be negotiated, what are you missing? I cannot make it any clearer.

And perhaps you can explain, in detail, just why you choose to describe the Nicolau Seniority Integration Decision as "flawed." It is real easy to throw cute words around like that, but much more difficult to provide a logical argument as to why you write such drivel.

Do I really need to explain why I would categorize the Nic as flawed? C'mon........ How many of the 3200 east pilots think the Nic is not flawed?

Furthermore, why is it your own fusapa land-shark has told you that the Nic most likely cannot be overturned? Why would your legal beagle say that? Yes it is on tape - so don't try one of your typical eastie two steps and deny it ever happened.

I don't know why he would say that, do we have him on web board retainer or is he just another opinion? You have it on tape? That's quite humorous, don't you think? Tell you what, can you put my opinion on tape too then.......

You see, the only way DOH will ever see the light of day is if the West group - the ones with integrity - agree to it. Don't hold your breath. On second thought, go ahead - hold your breath.

You are absolutely right, the west must agree to it. Additionally, the east will have to agree to it as well. Do you know how we achieve that? It will be voted upon by both east and west pilot groups..........which is what I have been attempting to explain for the last few posts but we continue to move off topic with these annoying, irrelevant ancillary issues (silly fabrications). I trust now you understand how we will arrive at an integrated list and we will both have the opportunity to agree to it or shoot it down.

Keep doing what you're doin.......that silent protest thing, it's working great.

 

[myview]

Somebody got a new account! And is off and running...who could it be? I wonder...

I take it that's a welcome aboard??? Thanks Elevation.

 

[myview]

Incorrect statement. Just shows how you selectively interpret things. No wonder the East was disappointed with the results of arbitration. ALPA merger policy says that neither side should get a windfall at the expense of the other. A small but significant distinction from your version.

Splitting hairs aren't we? Would you care to explain to me how one group could achieve a windfall absent the expense of the other? Though he may have not recited the exact language technically, its not relevant - same outcome either way you look at it. That would make it a small, not a significant, distinction.

Out of curiosity, why is a UAL pilot involving himself in an internal labor issue of US Airways?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

If it is so democratic, what things have been offered to the membership to vote on? Abandoning DOH? Why wasn't the west permitted to have any say in the crafting of the C&BL's if USAPA was supposedly set up to represent the interests of ALL US pilots? I would think that any founder of a union would do all in their power to get input from all of their constituents, if they truly want something other than the absolute corruption that comes with absolute power.

Wow! What an attitude. First, I doubt you or I will see a vote on anything until the later part of June at the earliest. Know why yet? You were permitted participate, you chose ALPA and I chose USAPA. So now after the fact, you claim you didn't have input? Pretty far reaching, don't you think? Since the election we do want your input, but alas, you choose to listen to your former ALPA leaders and not participate. I can't do anything about that. But really.....corruption? Is this just another fabrication? Since your last one was so firmly shot down. You really do yourself an injustice putting out false information. But trying to control the conversation to suit your ends just shows a level of integrity (Your word) that I haven't reached yet. Hope I never do.

If there is an allegiance oath requirement, then everything you claim about changing things is false, since you would have to take a false oath in order to be allowed into the process by which change could be made. If there is no requirement to pledge to defend DOH, why not put that issue on the ballot first and see, now that the east pilots have had a chance to sample the effectiveness of USAPA, how many would still be willing to trade the false hope of DOH for the chance to have a progressive, unified pilot group.

Perhaps Bradford will put out a communique confirming or denying the pension issue. Let's check the union bulletin board in the crew room. Nope, still nothing there.

By default, since there is no oath, then everything mentioned must be true. It's going to take someone from the west to propose a change to the C&BL's like you mention. Oh well. Guess that won't be a problem in the near future. Thanks. Effectiveness? Is this a start to the next falsehood? Funny, way too funny.

Perhaps not. I wonder what you will come up with next to entertain the board?

 

[elixir]

Strangely humorous that some people are dreaming up conjecture about individuals in a union that they are in denial of to begin with....voluntarily so. I suggest, with all due respect, that until and unless the West pilots take the time to actually engage in the process and "fact find" for themselves from an informed perspective, the opinions being expressed on such matters are moot.

Further, I submit that the postings and opinions of a UAL habitual lurker (you know who you are) are not only unsolicited, they, in fact, have no bearing whatsoever in the "business" of LCC and it's forums.

I'd think that a UAL employee would have his/her hands full with the problems at UAL, and as such, would be a much better use of said persons' time.

 

[westcoastflyer]

If I'm not mistaken, hasn't EVERY other employee group merged their new seniority lists by date-of-hire? I don't see endless complaining and sniveling from these other groups. They have simply moved on and have gotten better contracts going forward. What makes the pilots so much different? Why don't you guys learn the meaning of compromise and cooperation, move forward yourselves, and improve the lives of all involved?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

If I'm not mistaken, hasn't EVERY other employee group merged their new seniority lists by date-of-hire? I don't see endless complaining and sniveling from these other groups. They have simply moved on and have gotten better contracts going forward. What makes the pilots so much different? Why don't you guys learn the meaning of compromise and cooperation, move forward yourselves, and improve the lives of all involved?

The difference is the Nicolau award. DOH is not the policy of the union I support - ALPA.

You might be interested to know that the DOH award that was given to merge the two Flight Dispatchers groups was so onerous (DOH) that of the 60 dispatchers that were once the entire west team, only 4 continued on with the company in PIT. The other 56 either retired or quit. If thats what you call comprimise, cooperation, and the betterment of lives, you're one sick puppy.

And that's why the west pilots have fire in their eyes and are poised to fight this war to the bloody end - and why we plan to be the group standing tall when all is said and done.

INTEGRITY MATTERS


NLC

 

[nostradamus]

The difference is the Nicolau award. DOH is not the policy of the union I support - ALPA.

You might be interested to know that the DOH award that was given to merge the two Flight Dispatchers groups was so onerous (DOH) that of the 60 dispatchers that were once the entire west team, only 4 continued on with the company in PIT. The other 56 either retired or quit. If thats what you call comprimise, cooperation, and the betterment of lives, you're one sick puppy.

The date of hire award was very interesting in the dispatchers case. The Arbitrator saw things differently than nicholau. This is a very interesting read.

"The America West (hereinafter “AWA”, occasionally) workforce is composed of 37 active Dispatchers "


"the AWA CEO assuming the helm in Phoenix, “the predator king gets to have the top job, to grant fiefs to his chieftains, and to fly the flag over his castle!”22 Rather, what appears from the evidence is that, post-merger, the companies adopted a mixed management team and that, significantly, they adopted the US Airways collective bargaining agreement as applicable to the combined TWU force. Thus, setting aside the respective claims of who came with what, the hard evidence as to what was achieved shows significant parity as between carriers, each of which contributed complementary elements to a combined operation."

What is a Fief?


US Airways, america west dispatchers arbitration.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (westcoastflyer @ May 25 2008, 07:35 PM)
If I'm not mistaken, hasn't EVERY other employee group merged their new seniority lists by date-of-hire? I don't see endless complaining and sniveling from these other groups. They have simply moved on and have gotten better contracts going forward. What makes the pilots so much different? Why don't you guys learn the meaning of compromise and cooperation, move forward yourselves, and improve the lives of all involved?"

The difference is the Nicolau award.

"The difference is the Nicolau award." "And that's why the west pilots have fire in their eyes and are poised to fight this war to the bloody end - and why we plan to be the group standing tall when all is said and done." Yadda, yadda.....yawn....snore.. Yet more "heroic" westie "war"I see.. "poised to fight this war to the bloody end"....even on Memorial Day...Perhaps you've heard of it? = A Day when we do pay proper homage and Honor to people that actually DO, really Fight to the bloody end?...GROW UP!!! or at least, actually start getting "bloody",via taking your heroic, "integrity"-filled, selfish and self-righteous, immature arses to a real war (They're tragically, currently available..just check with your nearest recruiter)....and see how much fun that would truly be....That shouldn't be ANY problem for all those noble, self-ascribed AWA heroes with such "fire in their eyes"...especially when clearly gifted with such selfless "integrity"...Sheesh!... GROW UP!!!

"INTEGRITY MATTERS" As in; your notion of such? =Yeah...Riiiight...Have a White Feather and even a spare kitchen apron or two, as proper gifts to honor your fierce heroics...oh glorious "warrior", so ready to "fight this war to the bloody end".....Pathetic....Truly Pathetic.

PS: I'll merely suggest Visine for that "fire in their eyes".

 

[nycbusdriver]

- and why we plan to be the group standing tall when all is said and done.

You best be standing tall. Very tall. Because you're about to find yourselves in a nose-high cesspool.

 

[sharktooth]

DOH is not the policy of the union I support - ALPA.

You westies are so cute.

1. DOH is the policy of ALPA.

2. For purposes of a merger, DOH is not required to be considered. - ALPA merger policy. (which does not rule out using DOH).

That, my friend, is quite a departure from what you (as well as others of your kindred position) have stated.

The "nic" did not follow ALPA merger policy for the following reasons:

1. The "nic" was based on at least one false list.

2. The "nic" created a windfall to one group to the expense of another. New hires at one group were placed senior (as much as sixteen years senior, based on length of service) to those at another group. It seems you are okay with that but vehemently oppose DOH where a person with six years but furloughed is place senior to a one year new hire. The hypocrisy just drips.

3. The was no "relative" seniority. That would have required that both contracts be equalized in some way, demanding at least 620 pilots be added to the east list to "balance out" the unequal contracts of the pilots. That was not done. Not even contemplated.

Please, at least understand what you are talking about before posting.

 

[luvn737s]

Well, if you want to pull DOH out of the C&BL then you'll need to get some PHX or LAS reps to bring it forward in a resolution. Maybe you guys ought to start thinking about getting a few pilots together to represent the few of you that have joined.......? Maybe you should consider joining to give those reps some voting power, it's not going to cost you any more, I can assure you of that.

<-sigh-> (I hope that's not copywritten)

OK, we'll slow down and go over this again. The requirement to be a rep is no different than the requirements to be a member. Those who inquired about becoming a rep were told they had to uphold the CB&L's including DOH. Those with the integrity to keep such agrements declined. No one who wants to have their name endorsing a flawed concept such as DOH for a the AWA/US integration should agree to membership in USAPA.

I believe that a pilot can have as much if not more influence over the course of events from outside USAPA than from within. The fact that Bradford refuses to communicate with anything other than threats and rhetoric proves what the west side has known all along. While some here may claim to have spoken directly to the almighty F/O himself, he refuses to come out himself and specifically deny that he and the other officers of USAPA have not granted themselves pensions. Are you USAPA members permitted to go to CLT and look at the books? Just how much monkey business (if any should be found) would you be willing to ignore, just to keep USAPA intact?

If continued stalemate is acceptable, then I wouldn't change a thing. Let the USAPA pigs feed at the FPL trough while the average line pilots earning power erodes. But if you expected and still demand better, tell Bradford to do whatever is necessary to ignore the vocal minority extremists and unify the pilot groups so that the next economic opportunity is not missed. Better yet dump Bradford (about the only real benefit of USAPA membership I can see would be that vote - but then again no one seems to get to vote on much at USAPA) and elect real leaders who can move beyond fear and rhetoric.