ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[prechilill]

What we did, in fact, was to vote for a new CBA. The process was legal and the result is now official - in the eyes of the NMB, the management of this company and the majority of this pilot group.

As has been posted countless times, the Nic award was a significant contributing factor, but the list of grievances against ALPA was long as well as long standing. The dam finally broke with the Nic.

There were too many votes for USAPA from the east to attribute the vote results exclusively to the award. Doesn't add up, we don't have that many F/O's. As usual, the reasons are more complicated.

But at least for now, we have killed two birds with one vote, ALPA and Nic. I say for now, because just as all of our past actions have been legal - notwithstanding how they enrage and frustrate an outmaneuvered west - our future actions will also remain within the scope of what is legal and ethical.

Your argument about honoring agreements does not wash. The process-centric, ALPA sanctioned, seniority integration mandated the sequence of events as well as the timeline. Neither side had the option to say no to arbitration. ALPA and it's process failed both sides - and so they were fired.

Arbitration is a legitimate legal process in America. I am sorry you do not recognize it as such. Perhaps you should live in a country where the rule of law is trumped by emotions of a ruling mob. Oh, since it seems your memory is short, your side agreed to arbitration as well as to the seniority integration process as a whole. You may not remember that but the rest of the world does. I know this little detail conflicts with your righteous story line, but as we all know truth is stronger than fiction.

One last point. you can subjectively state ALPA is bad. That is your right. You cannot, however, indict a legal process such as arbitration- that crosses the line and is un-American. This is where your argument against the Nicolau award are so transparent. I really don't think you have a beef with arbitration- you just didn't like the result. Well, tough. Have a nice day!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Arbitration is a legitimate legal process in America. I am sorry you do not recognize it as such. Perhaps you should live in a country where the rule of law is trumped by emotions of a ruling mob. Oh, since it seems your memory is short, your side agreed to arbitration as well as to the seniority integration process as a whole. You may not remember that but the rest of the world does. I know this little detail conflicts with your righteous story line, but as we all know truth is stronger than fiction.

One last point. you can subjectively state ALPA is bad. That is your right. You cannot, however, indict a legal process such as arbitration- that crosses the line and is un-American. This is where your argument against the Nicolau award are so transparent. I really don't think you have a beef with arbitration- you just didn't like the result. Well, tough. Have a nice day!

Again, you miss the point of my post. To take some liberty with geometry - there were two sides on this side. The ALPA faction, which agreed to the ALPA process - and the rest of us, who watched and waited to see if ALPA would provide us with the match.

They did.

 

[nycbusdriver]

As I suspected, the FPL and USAPA pension subjects brought up by one of our westies is a total fabrication. Checked with the union myself and got the scoop. No doubt, though, that the westies will continue their modus operandi and keep shouting the lies long enough and loud enough to see which of the gullible among them will believe it.

The fact is that there has been nothing at all done or discussed about pensions for USAPA officers. This is a new day, and the ALPA "business as usual," i.e. protect the mother ship and our do-nothing union positions, has been flushed down the crapper.

Second, the company has approved FPL for USAPA along the identical lines that ALPA enjoyed. The president is on full FPL, just as the ALPA MEC chairman was. The company also granted a pool of FPL hours available to other USAPA union officials, exactly as they had done for ALPA. Sounds to me like the company is ready to do business with the new union, and vice versa.

So far EVERYTHING the westies predicted or proclaimed has come up false. (Maybe we should give them the Cactus call sign as a pacifier.)

Enjoy the show, all. It's a new day.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Arbitration is a legitimate legal process in America. I am sorry you do not recognize it as such. Perhaps you should live in a country where the rule of law is trumped by emotions of a ruling mob. Oh, since it seems your memory is short, your side agreed to arbitration as well as to the seniority integration process as a whole. You may not remember that but the rest of the world does. I know this little detail conflicts with your righteous story line, but as we all know truth is stronger than fiction.

One last point. you can subjectively state ALPA is bad. That is your right. You cannot, however, indict a legal process such as arbitration- that crosses the line and is un-American. This is where your argument against the Nicolau award are so transparent. I really don't think you have a beef with arbitration- you just didn't like the result. Well, tough. Have a nice day!

The fact that the arbitration did NOT even abide by ALPA guidance that neither side should get a windfall is enought to invalidate it. Plus the fact that they used an incorrect list submitted by the West. If there wasn't a windfall, then why are there so many west opinions so different from those of the east? The whole Nic thing is what it is. ALPA could have fixed it and didn't. Now they're gone. On to the next step. We may see where this is heading real soon.

Go ahead, vent if you need to.

 

[myview]

Ok, let's take a look at the first statement. Do we (west) believe a pilot has a connection with their elected bargaining agent. Well, yes. We do. You guys out east have a monopoly on dishonoring agreements and not following even your own rules. So why do you believe we will not do the same with you all? You see, what goes around comes around, or something like that. We out west have learned quite a bit from you guys and look forward to returning the favors.

So let me understand this, in reality, you do believe the west has a connection with their duly elected bargaining agent....but......you are going to publicly portray that you have no connection and remain silent on any career or representational issues to illustrate your unhappiness with the direction your union will take? Is that correct?

So I will ask again, this form of silent protest that you are utilizing; how effective do you believe it will prove to be in reference to improvements to your career and union representation?

I guess I am simply baffled with your method of protest - silence and non-action, and that you believe this silent protest will somehow teach the majority a lesson........

My prediction is that the pilot majority is simply going to keep on truckin' oblivious of your silent protest. You apparently think otherwise. Time will tell......

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Who's idea was it to demand that any and all members of FUSAPA swear allegiance to the club by disavowing anything to do with the Nicolau Arbitration Finding and accepting the DOH methodology of seniority integration.

Many folks would call this blackmail, coercion, extortion, and dishonorable.

And THAT would certainly be something to mention should the baby union try to have non-paying non-members fired for not wishing to self-castrate themselves.

INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[Piedmont1984]

Who's idea was it to demand that any and all members of FUSAPA swear allegiance to the club by disavowing anything to do with the Nicolau Arbitration Finding and accepting the DOH methodology of seniority integration.

Many folks would call this blackmail, coercion, extortion, and dishonorable.

And THAT would certainly be something to mention should the baby union try to have non-paying non-members fired for not wishing to self-castrate themselves.

INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

DOH methodology happens to be one of the principal tenets of USAPA's constitution and bylaws - so many folks would consider this as simply signing on to the principles your union is founded upon.

SENIORITY MATTERS

 

[myview]

As I suspected, the FPL and USAPA pension subjects brought up by one of our westies is a total fabrication. Checked with the union myself and got the scoop. No doubt, though, that the westies will continue their modus operandi and keep shouting the lies long enough and loud enough to see which of the gullible among them will believe it.

And I don't know why we see these complete fabrications, many times followed with the claim of integrity, continue on and on, it's quite amazing.

Second, the company has approved FPL for USAPA along the identical lines that ALPA enjoyed. The president is on full FPL, just as the ALPA MEC chairman was. The company also granted a pool of FPL hours available to other USAPA union officials, exactly as they had done for ALPA. Sounds to me like the company is ready to do business with the new union, and vice versa.

The fact is, to be effective, you need your key union personnel to utilize FPL, they must be able to focus on the job at hand full time; it's a full time job and then some. In no way am I suggesting an abuse of FPL, only that our key players must be able to perform their job with an absolute commitment.

So far EVERYTHING the westies predicted or proclaimed has come up false. (Maybe we should give them the Cactus call sign as a pacifier.)

That's what so astonishing.........accusation after accusation of wrong doing and/or criticism and the truth always comes out highlighting the fabrications and yet the baseless claims continue unabashed........go figure.

My recommendation would be to get involved with some constructive efforts or get out of the way, but choose one or the other.

 

[myview]

Who's idea was it to demand that any and all members of FUSAPA swear allegiance to the club by disavowing anything to do with the Nicolau Arbitration Finding and accepting the DOH methodology of seniority integration. Many folks would call this blackmail, coercion, extortion, and dishonorable. And THAT would certainly be something to mention should the baby union try to have non-paying non-members fired for not wishing to self-castrate themselves. INTEGRITY MATTERS

Yep, integrity does matter and the irony is, here's another one of these fabrications.

No one is forcing anyone to swear allegiance to something they believe is wrong. If you believe strongly that a position your union has taken is wrong then make an argument to change it. If your argument is valid and strong enough to affect change then that will be the result. ALPA has had numerous changes to the ALPA Admin manual and C&BL over the years. But pilots were never told they cannot become members if they disagreed with every written word embodied within those documents. The same holds true with USAPA, if you don't like it - change it. It's a democratic organization and there is a democratic methodology to affect that change.

If you truly want to change something that you firmly believe is wrong then be constructive and responsible with your actions; get involved. This close your eyes and pretend USAPA doesn't exist is about as ineffective as one can get - the only result you will get with that effort is status quo.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Yep, integrity does matter and the irony is, here's another one of these fabrications.

No one is forcing anyone to swear allegiance to something they believe is wrong. >>>>Snip<<<< if you don't like it - change it. It's a democratic organization and there is a democratic methodology to affect that change.

Sorry, your words ring hollow and you have apparently been in to the koolaide again. In order to become a fusapa member, one needs to agree to comply with the constitution of the organization. And that constitution emphatically states that DOH senority is required. Try reading it sometime.

My earlier statement is and was 100% correct. The fusapa constitiution gives every westy a Hobson's choice. And being farced with that little fact is highly defensible in a court of law.

Change it? Change what? You mean seniority? Didn't you hear Mr. Parker's statement regarding seniority? Where he said he cannot ignore the Nicolau list that he has officially accepted?

You have the advantage of numbers. We have the more powerful advantage of being right.

INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[luvn737s]

No one is forcing anyone to swear allegiance to something they believe is wrong. If you believe strongly that a position your union has taken is wrong then make an argument to change it. If your argument is valid and strong enough to affect change then that will be the result. ALPA has had numerous changes to the ALPA Admin manual and C&BL over the years. But pilots were never told they cannot become members if they disagreed with every written word embodied within those documents. The same holds true with USAPA, if you don't like it - change it. It's a democratic organization and there is a democratic methodology to affect that change.

If it is so democratic, what things have been offered to the membership to vote on? Abandoning DOH? Why wasn't the west permitted to have any say in the crafting of the C&BL's if USAPA was supposedly set up to represent the interests of ALL US pilots? I would think that any founder of a union would do all in their power to get input from all of their constituents, if they truly want something other than the absolute corruption that comes with absolute power.

If there is an allegiance oath requirement, then everything you claim about changing things is false, since you would have to take a false oath in order to be allowed into the process by which change could be made. If there is no requirement to pledge to defend DOH, why not put that issue on the ballot first and see, now that the east pilots have had a chance to sample the effectiveness of USAPA, how many would still be willing to trade the false hope of DOH for the chance to have a progressive, unified pilot group.

Perhaps Bradford will put out a communique confirming or denying the pension issue. Let's check the union bulletin board in the crew room. Nope, still nothing there.

 

[EastUS]

........willing to trade the false hope of DOH for the chance to have a progressive, unified pilot group.

Umm.."the false hope"?...Then...you have nothing to fret over, and zero reasons for having any west panties get all bundled up. That being the case, as you see it: Why not participate?

"Perhaps Bradford will put out a communique confirming or denying the pension issue. " Absolutely!..It's, very naturally, the primary job of all to just waste time in countering the Lie-of-the-Moment, and/or any/all fabricated BS that you wish to imagine. Yeah...that "makes sense"...sigh.

"If there is an allegiance oath requirement.." Yeah = "If"...Sigh again..why don't you get off your arse and find out what's actually true, or is merely more utter BS? Whatever happened to all that "integrity matters" BS you folks so gleefully spew out? Doesn't "integrity matter" whenever your "side" is continuously generating wholesale horsecrap?..especiallywhen based soley upon attitude, and wholesale ignorance of the actual conditions?

 

[myview]

Sorry, your words ring hollow and you have apparently been in to the koolaide again. In order to become a fusapa member, one needs to agree to comply with the constitution of the organization. INTEGRITY MATTERS

All I had to do was fill out a membership card to become a member. Furthermore, if I want to change something I bring it to my reps in the form of a resolution at a council meeting. But my words ring hollow, apparently you have received something other than a membership card???

Change it? Change what? You mean seniority? Didn't you hear Mr. Parker's statement regarding seniority? Where he said he cannot ignore the Nicolau list that he has officially accepted.

Seniority resides in our collective bargaining agreement, specifically Section 22. Rest assured that any integration agreement will contain no reference to the flawed Nicolau document, it's that simple. Please check it out since you think my words ring hollow. (scratch that, I will paste it below in an effort to avoid any more disparaging remarks about my character)

Do you also know who holds the certified seniority list? Your Bargaining Agent............. Are you beginning to see how this is going to work?

East Pilot Contract; Section 22

GENERAL

(A) Only those pilots listed on the current US Airways, Inc. Pilots' System Seniority List shall be used on all flights as defined in Section 2(O).

B Pilots' System Seniority List

1. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as an airline pilot in the employ of the Company or its predecessor airline companies whose operations have been taken over by the Company.

2. Seniority of a pilot, and longevity for pay, vacation, sick leave, and retirement purposes shall begin to accrue on the date the pilot first reports to the Company's Pilot Training Program and shall continue to accrue except as otherwise provided in this Agreement. If more than one pilot is assigned to such training on the same day, they will be ranked in order of age, with the oldest pilot receiving the lowest seniority number. Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed. Each pilot shall be notified in writing of his number on this list, as well as the pilot's name and who is next junior to him.

America West Pilot Contract

SECTION 22
SENIORITY

A. GENERAL

1. Seniority of a Pilot shall begin on the Pilot’s Date of Hire.

2. Except as provided in Subsection 22.A.3., when two (2) or more Pilots enter training on the same date, the relative seniority of the Pilots shall be determined by chronological age. The oldest Pilot shall be placed on the seniority list first.

3. New hire Pilots who transfer from another Company department shall be placed on the seniority list above all other new hire Pilots within the training class. In the event that two (2) or more new hire Pilots who transfer from another Company department are in the same training class, the new hire Pilot with the greatest length of continuous employment with the Company shall be placed on the seniority list first.

4. Once established, a Pilot’s relative seniority shall not be changed without the agreement of the Association, except as provided in Subsection 22.C.3.

5. Seniority shall govern all Pilots in case of promotion and demotion, retention in case of reduction in force, assignment or realignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, reemployment after release due to reduction in schedules, reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and choice of vacancies, provided the Pilot can qualify and is able to assume the assignment.

B. SENIORITY LIST

1. All Pilots shall be listed on the America West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List.

2. The America West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List shall be the seniority list published by the Company on May 1, 1995, as amended, and as that list may be modified in accordance with this Section 22.

 

[myview]

If it is so democratic, what things have been offered to the membership to vote on? Abandoning DOH? Why wasn't the west permitted to have any say in the crafting of the C&BL's if USAPA was supposedly set up to represent the interests of ALL US pilots?

Actually you and every pilot on this property had a say, you voted on whether to accept USAPA or ALPA - both have their own C&BLs.

If there is an allegiance oath requirement, then everything you claim about changing things is false, since you would have to take a false oath in order to be allowed into the process by which change could be made.

Fair enough, I will attach a USAPA Membership Application; please show me where you make this allegiance pledge. I can assure you, this allegiance stuff is just more "integrity matters/words ring hallow/no credibility" stuff..........someone's pulling your chain and you're getting sucked in hook line and sinker. You guys need to stop the silent approach and start asking questions and participating because you will have no one but yourselves to blame with the results.

If there is no requirement to pledge to defend DOH, why not put that issue on the ballot first and see, now that the east pilots have had a chance to sample the effectiveness of USAPA, how many would still be willing to trade the false hope of DOH for the chance to have a progressive, unified pilot group.

Well, if you want to pull DOH out of the C&BL then you'll need to get some PHX or LAS reps to bring it forward in a resolution. Maybe you guys ought to start thinking about getting a few pilots together to represent the few of you that have joined.......? Maybe you should consider joining to give those reps some voting power, it's not going to cost you any more, I can assure you of that.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Perhaps Bradford will put out a communique confirming or denying the pension issue. Let's check the union bulletin board in the crew room. Nope, still nothing there.

I contacted USAPA myself (as you can, also) and was told this pension rumor is unfounded.

Will Bradford have to put out a communique now denying every outlandish lie that you westies can cook up?

What's next?

Bradford has to issue a communique denying he beats his dog?

....talks to space aliens?

....sees UFO's when he flies? (Ooops...little close to home?)

...is in league with the devil?

...hangs out with Osama Bin Laden?



Why should anyone have to answer your lies. Prove what you say is true, then you will be credible. Until then, go pound sand.