ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[EastUS]

Had cooler heads prevailed, during mediation,....
Now is the time to prepare for the future and it will take a wholesale rejection of the past strategy to make it a future worth pursuing.

"Had cooler heads prevailed..." "If cooler heads had prevailed after Nicolau,.." "Had" and "If" play no actual part in ANY aspect of reality, and we could argue endlessly over the proprtionate numbers of "cooler heads" anywhere, at anytime...much less any you might properly note the utter absence of within the Alpa groups of brilliant "negotiators" from both west and east..who, collectively, couldn't find ANY common ground...or even their arses with a compass/GPS/Field map and months to do it. Spare me any/all fantasies that the same people would have magically delivered the imaginary "Great Contract" within your fantasized time frame...or EVER after Nic.

"divesting the divisive issues like DOH" Hmmm..I can't seem to find any magic wand lying around that makes any immense seniority conflicts dissapear, via uttering the magic word "divesting". What's meant by "divesting" herein? Ah...nevermind = "A pragmatic solution that includes Nicolau and provides some protection for the east"..."Divesting" actually translates to mean: Swallow Nic wholesale, but have...ummm....."some" protection for the east? How very kind.

I'm impressed. This is clearly a very "pragmatic", and fully rational thought provided by "cooler heads".

Ummm...are you/can you possibly be, even remotely serious? :blink:

Nevermind, I see otherwise, and appreciate the intended chuckles contained = "There would have been no Nicolau decision. if USAPA had not used the fear of west integration to wedge itself into power." So...now?..the Nic's actually USAPA's fault???..... :blink: SO (insert much head-scratching)..If I have this right = USAPA, which didn't even exist at the time..and by predominant west "logic", only now exists to thwart Nic..was actually, somehow..magically...responsible FOR Nic!? This just gets "Curiouser and Curiouser" the farther down the west rabbit-hole of "logic" that one travels.

Speaking of "cooler heads" though: I'm fine with wagering that you've not joined USAPA, which is your legal Union, and sought to voice your concerns and feelings.

Have a fine and safe Holiday weekend All...and let's not ever forget all those for whom the Holiday exists/Take Care.

 

[EastUS]

hmmm...20 year FO...thats original.
Like it or not (mostly not..apparently) you have forcibly inherited each other (with the baggage)...and the future you anticipate is influenced by the other...therefore I suggest you work together to prevent you bumping into a (Eastie/Westie) in the unemployment line....

Time to wake up.

Fully agreed.

 

[luvn737s]

The connection between USAPA and the AAAMEC was so obvious that even Prater saw through it and when he could no longer stand the heat, he took some action. I don't think anyone needs a primer on the shenanigans that went on at AAA. The problem started when the pilots in the east decided to pick DOH as their hill to die upon. Unfortunately for them, they were only critically wounded and are left with the scars.

There are folks who have a vested interest in perpetuating the east/west fued; I'm not one of them. Those same people derive their power from the fear they instill in others that a 'villain' (managment, west pilots, boogieman No.3, etc.) is coming to take away something that's theirs. They magnify this threat out of all proportion and then pose as the only one looking out for their interests.

When the time comes for them to actually produce results, they puff them selves up, refuse to meet with lesser mortals and go back to granting themselves a pension as a token of appreciation for all their hard work.

If serving the entire pilot group is really the mission of USAPA, it can only be so if DOH is abandoned and serious fence-mending begins now. For some this will mean giving up some power, but it should be placed on the ballot immediately and without prejudice.

 

[EastUS]

If serving the entire pilot group is really the mission of USAPA, it can only be so if DOH is abandoned and serious fence-mending begins now.

I see. "Serving the entire pilot group" can only be done on your terms...So...to "serve the entire pilot group" we should all bow down to the minority position......what's new there?

Later.

 

[luvn737s]

I see. "Serving the entire pilot group" can only be done on your terms...So...to "serve the entire pilot group" we should all bow down to the minority position......what's new there?

Later.

How's your solution working out?

Thought so.

 

[nycbusdriver]

When the time comes for them to actually produce results, they puff them selves up, refuse to meet with lesser mortals and go back to granting themselves a pension as a token of appreciation for all their hard work.

Who granted themselves pensions? Is this just another illusion that the westies cooked up to rally their troops? Will you say it loud enough and long enough, again, in hopes that it will somehow come true?

I know....some ALPA weenie told you so, and you believed it.

 

[luvn737s]

You can ask Bradford/Theuer, et.al., but I'm sure there is enough transparency in USAPA's finances that that's not necessary, right? You would have voted on something like that, I'm sure. Like you've voted on....? And why would anyone on the west care about the pension of an organization to which they have no connection? Other than to point out the priorities of the "leaders" of a group that holds so much potential.

But they have a tough job and deserve to get all they can. Heck it's been over a month of constant struggle to get a PDF file of their grievance form posted on their website. These men have taken on these types of hurculean tasks.

Do they have FPL forms on the site?

 

[sharktooth]

You can ask Bradford/Theuer, et.al., but I'm sure there is enough transparency in USAPA's finances that that's not necessary, right?

Before you get dismissed as a liar, perhaps you should source that "pension" information. Where did you get the information and from whom, because, other from those who have a bone to pick, I have seen nothing about this?

Since "pensions" take many forms, you may also wish to clarify what it is you are talking about. Could not one say that strengthening this company would be a form of pension?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Before you get dismissed as a liar, perhaps you should source that "pension" information. Where did you get the information and from whom, because, other from those who have a bone to pick, I have seen nothing about this?

Since "pensions" take many forms, you may also wish to clarify what it is you are talking about. Could not one say that strengthening this company would be a form of pension?

Plus, if he had been reading the updates, he'd ALREADY KNOW who and how to contact for a grievance, as well as the less than expeditious manner in which ALPA transferrred the info to continue processing the already filed ones.

 

[sharktooth]

... as well as the less than expeditious manner in which ALPA transferrred the info to continue processing the already filed ones.

We expected ALPA to actually improve?

 

[myview]

Quit calling me a westy. I'am tired of the usapa rhetoric at this point. Show me the money! I want results. I sat on the fence for too long,expecting doh and a new contract by now. Oil is through the roof, I have NO doh and a better contract? A little late for that , don't you think? Am I the only easty getting a little bent? Some of you posters seem to be in the know. Fill me in with facts, and not the usual RA-RA crap I hear on the line. It's getting old, while the industry is getting worse.From what I hear, Parker is basically jerking usapa around. I feel sick being broke and in limbo with ZERO leverage. I heard the west has funded over a million dollars for legal fees to protect themselves from us imposing doh.They call it awapa/lenidas. I can't afford to write you guys checks , to end up in a long,expensive legal battle, and possibly sued.I know what Lee said. I'am trying to be real here people, I don't believe in shirting in one hand and wishing in the other.SHOW ME THE MONEY

To continue to portray a misleading identity would make most people very uncomfortable...............

 

[myview]

How's your solution working out? Thought so.

It would appear that it is far superior to the alternative for at least 2700 other pilots.......

 

[myview]

And why would anyone on the west care about the pension of an organization to which they have no connection?

If I understand you correctly, you do not believe a west pilot has a connection to their duly elected bargaining agent? My question, then, would be how do you think that approach is going to work for you and your career? Do you think it might be more effective to get involved and attempt change through participation or do you believe that you will be better represented by effectively remaining silent?

 

[prechilill]

If I understand you correctly, you do not believe a west pilot has a connection to their duly elected bargaining agent? My question, then, would be how do you think that approach is going to work for you and your career? Do you think it might be more effective to get involved and attempt change through participation or do you believe that you will be better represented by effectively remaining silent?

Ok, let's take a look at the first statement. Do we (west) believe a pilot has a connection with their elected bargaining agent. Well, yes. We do. In fact, we feel a pilot is obligated to follow the policies and procedures outlined by their bargaining agent. We also think agreements should be honored and a union should stand by its word. What you guys out east taught us out west is honor and integrity are transient- they may be dispensed with whenever we feel appropriate (think arbitration). So, do you (insert chuckle here) actually think you can take the moral high road with the west after all the shenanigans the east pilots' have pulled? You guys out east have a monopoly on dishonoring agreements and not following even your own rules. So why do you believe we will not do the same with you all? You see, what goes around comes around, or something like that. We out west have learned quite a bit from you guys and look forward to returning the favors.
Peace.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Ok, let's take a look at the first statement. Do we (west) believe a pilot has a connection with their elected bargaining agent. Well, yes. We do. In fact, we feel a pilot is obligated to follow the policies and procedures outlined by their bargaining agent. We also think agreements should be honored and a union should stand by its word. What you guys out east taught us out west is honor and integrity are transient- they may be dispensed with whenever we feel appropriate (think arbitration). So, do you (insert chuckle here) actually think you can take the moral high road with the west after all the shenanigans the east pilots' have pulled? You guys out east have a monopoly on dishonoring agreements and not following even your own rules. So why do you believe we will not do the same with you all? You see, what goes around comes around, or something like that. We out west have learned quite a bit from you guys and look forward to returning the favors.
Peace.

What we did, in fact, was to vote for a new CBA. The process was legal and the result is now official - in the eyes of the NMB, the management of this company and the majority of this pilot group.

As has been posted countless times, the Nic award was a significant contributing factor, but the list of grievances against ALPA was long as well as long standing. The dam finally broke with the Nic.

There were too many votes for USAPA from the east to attribute the vote results exclusively to the award. Doesn't add up, we don't have that many F/O's. As usual, the reasons are more complicated.

But at least for now, we have killed two birds with one vote, ALPA and Nic. I say for now, because just as all of our past actions have been legal - notwithstanding how they enrage and frustrate an outmaneuvered west - our future actions will also remain within the scope of what is legal and ethical.

Your argument about honoring agreements does not wash. The process-centric, ALPA sanctioned, seniority integration mandated the sequence of events as well as the timeline. Neither side had the option to say no to arbitration. ALPA and it's process failed both sides - and so they were fired.