ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[CactusFlyr]

All I had to do was fill out a membership card to become a member. Furthermore, if I want to change something I bring it to my reps in the form of a resolution at a council meeting. But my words ring hollow, apparently you have received something other than a membership card???



Seniority resides in our collective bargaining agreement, specifically Section 22. Rest assured that any integration agreement will contain no reference to the flawed Nicolau document, it's that simple. Please check it out since you think my words ring hollow. (scratch that, I will paste it below in an effort to avoid any more disparaging remarks about my character)

Do you also know who holds the certified seniority list? Your Bargaining Agent............. Are you beginning to see how this is going to work?

East Pilot Contract; Section 22

GENERAL

(A) Only those pilots listed on the current US Airways, Inc. Pilots' System Seniority List shall be used on all flights as defined in Section 2(O).

B Pilots' System Seniority List

1. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as an airline pilot in the employ of the Company or its predecessor airline companies whose operations have been taken over by the Company.

2. Seniority of a pilot, and longevity for pay, vacation, sick leave, and retirement purposes shall begin to accrue on the date the pilot first reports to the Company's Pilot Training Program and shall continue to accrue except as otherwise provided in this Agreement. If more than one pilot is assigned to such training on the same day, they will be ranked in order of age, with the oldest pilot receiving the lowest seniority number. Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed. Each pilot shall be notified in writing of his number on this list, as well as the pilot's name and who is next junior to him.

America West Pilot Contract

SECTION 22
SENIORITY

A. GENERAL

1. Seniority of a Pilot shall begin on the Pilot’s Date of Hire.

2. Except as provided in Subsection 22.A.3., when two (2) or more Pilots enter training on the same date, the relative seniority of the Pilots shall be determined by chronological age. The oldest Pilot shall be placed on the seniority list first.

3. New hire Pilots who transfer from another Company department shall be placed on the seniority list above all other new hire Pilots within the training class. In the event that two (2) or more new hire Pilots who transfer from another Company department are in the same training class, the new hire Pilot with the greatest length of continuous employment with the Company shall be placed on the seniority list first.

4. Once established, a Pilot’s relative seniority shall not be changed without the agreement of the Association, except as provided in Subsection 22.C.3.

5. Seniority shall govern all Pilots in case of promotion and demotion, retention in case of reduction in force, assignment or realignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, reemployment after release due to reduction in schedules, reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and choice of vacancies, provided the Pilot can qualify and is able to assume the assignment.

B. SENIORITY LIST

1. All Pilots shall be listed on the America West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List.

2. The America West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List shall be the seniority list published by the Company on May 1, 1995, as amended, and as that list may be modified in accordance with this Section 22.

Seniority at the old USAir and America West obviously goes by DOH. It does not go by DOH when combining carriers, just ask TWA, PanAm, etc.

 

[luvthe9]

First of all it is not my union, never will be. Second, the west is not stupid enough to ever believe that they will have a voice that will override your numbers. You guys outnumber us significantly which is the ONLY reason we are where we are. I refuse to play your game.

So sit back, and the East control your future then.

 

[EastUS]

First of all it is not my union, never will be.

Understood..although the NMB and management both seem to differ with you as to that. Regardless....should you ever have a problem of any sort (while awaiting the supposed devastation/failure/collapse, etc, ad nauseum, of USAPA..the miracle merger with UAL/Alpa/whatever)....."Who ya' gonna' call?"...Ghostbusters?

CactusFlyr:"Seniority at the old USAir and America West obviously goes by DOH. It does not go by DOH when combining carriers, just ask TWA, PanAm, etc. " Hmmm...you didn't see fit to include PSA I see. We got straight DOH, just fyi, and there wasn't any "fight this war to the bloody end" BS of the least sort afterwards....I wonder why? All other employee groups here went DOH it seems..and there's no "Fire in their eyes"...nor any calls for "war"....as utterly amazing as that must seem from your perspective. I AM a bit curious as to that = Why's your pilot group so much more "special" than all the others among our fellow workers?

"Seniority at the old USAir and America West obviously goes by DOH." Ah yes = "obviously", as such a concept's, quite clearly, both fully reasonable and rational....unless it no longer suits your personal ambitions of course. I see now. Sheesh!...The same, tired, old "We're entitled!!/Who cares if all the other groups were done via DOH!?/We're really, REALLY "special"...just ask US!!"....typical tap dancing.

 

[luvthe9]

None of this probably matters anyway between the way Parker is running this place and the price of oil I don't think we will be around to much longer. (hope I'm wrong though)

 

[CactusFlyr]

Understood..although the NMB and management both seem to differ with you as to that. Regardless....should you ever have a problem of any sort (while awaiting the supposed devastation/failure/collapse, etc, ad nauseum, of USAPA..the miracle merger with UAL/Alpa/whatever)....."Who ya' gonna' call?"...Ghostbusters?

I'm still flying, and you guys can go stomp and hold your breath some more- getting blue in the lips yet????

 

[EastUS]

None of this probably matters anyway between the way Parker is running this place and the price of oil I don't think we will be around to much longer. (hope I'm wrong though)

Easilly agreed...more's the pity, and I certainly hope I'm wrong as well.

 

[nostradamus]

My crystal ball shows many DFR lawsuits in USAPA's future (and anyone tied to them). :down:

America West Pilots Protective Alliance (AWAPPA) is an Arizona Limited Liability Corporation created for, and operated and funded by the 1800 airline pilots of the former America West Airlines.

Jeffrey Freund Esq. of Bredhoff & Kaiser P.L.L.C. serves as the AWAPPA legal counsel.

Your Lawyers were involved in a union case below, last year.


Important Agency Fee Cases in First and Second Circuits (July/August 2007)

"On two fronts, Bredhoff & Kaiser, P.L.L.C. attorneys recently turned back “right to workâ€￾ efforts to make it more difficult for unions to collect agency fees from nonmembers whom they represent in collective bargaining. In the First Circuit, firm attorneys won an important decision in Locke v. Karass, 498 F.3d 49 (1st Cir. 2007), decided in August 2007. In that case, the court rejected efforts to create a litigation exception to the Supreme Court’s ruling that state and national unions may calculate their agency fees by pooling expenditures made on behalf of the various bargaining units they represent. Several weeks earlier, in a matter now on appeal to the Second Circuit, a district court decision adopted the firm’s contention that union expenditures for organizing nonunion bargaining units were “chargeableâ€￾ to agency fee objectors. "

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I'm still flying, and you guys can go stomp and hold your breath some more- getting blue in the lips yet????

So am I. Actually my lips are just fine. In fact my / our breathing is doing great. IMO it would seem the flip side is the one having apoplectic fits. Are we having fun yet?

 

[767jetz]

Out of curiosity, why is a UAL pilot involving himself in an internal labor issue of US Airways?

Out of curiosity, I wonder why 'myview' hasn't responded to any of my questions? Is he MIA? :huh:

 

[elixir]

Out of curiosity, I wonder why 'myview' hasn't responded to any of my questions? Is he MIA? :huh:

`Pal, you've been asked about 30 times to butt out...there is a relevent thread for you...the LCC/UAUA thread.

Are you simple? single? lonely?

I don't get it...you're here every time I look at this board. I have to believe you spend at least this much time on YOUR forum too..

WTF?

Nobody owes you any answer on this forum as you have no business here...and yet you persist.

Interestingly disturbing.

 

[checksix]

Seniority at the old USAir and America West obviously goes by DOH. It does not go by DOH when combining carriers, just ask TWA, PanAm, etc.

So it did go that way with US Airways and America West but it won't go that way any more because..............I missed the basis for your conclusion.

 

[checksix]

Not at all. But no surprise that you don't see it that way since it flies in the face of your position. Very typical. Sure. I'd love to. (However I have a feeling the lesson would be lost on you since you tend to dismiss anything that does not conform to your view of the world.)

Just one example off the top of my head. If both groups were to negotiate a new pay scale with raises, but due to disparate original wages, one group ends up with a 5% raise while the other ends up with a 20% increase, this may be seen as a windfall by some. However, since it is not at the expense of the other group, it is perfectly acceptable.

By your definition, altering LOA 93 in order to get pay parity with the West would be a windfall to you and therefore unacceptable. But of course your tune changes when we talk of that subject. Perhaps it would be fair to you if whatever percentage of a raise you get to bring you up to current West rates could also be applied to the West so they will still make more than you? I'm sure you be agreeable to this so that there is no windfall on your part, right?

How about benefits from synergies? Let's say that you have 2 flights per week from PHL to CDG on a 330. But since the merger, the additional feed from PHX has made it possible to support a 3rd flight per week to CDG. Keep in mind this is not a new route, just one additional frequency to an established route. Is this a windfall to the East as a result of the merger? Sure. But it didn't come at the West's expense. The extra connecting traffic pushed the numbers in PHL over the threshold to support the additional flight. Under your definition, this should not be allowed! I'm sure you'd be agreeable to letting the West pilots fly some of these PHL-CDG flights on the A330 so that there is no windfall on your part, right?

You don't understand the definition of windfall, or ALPA merger policy for that matter.

Per ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

Your first example for "windfall" would fall under "Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living. Your second example would fall under "Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status." Neither would qualify for a "windfall." On the contrary, your examples would concur with with ALPA merger policy.

Hope this helps.

 

[checksix]

OK, we'll slow down and go over this again. The requirement to be a rep is no different than the requirements to be a member. Those who inquired about becoming a rep were told they had to uphold the CB&L's including DOH. Those with the integrity to keep such agrements declined. No one who wants to have their name endorsing a flawed concept such as DOH for a the AWA/US integration should agree to membership in USAPA.

That's a standard practice among most organizations or associations. In fact, it is a standard practice in democracy. As an elected official or representative, you are expected or asked to swear to uphold the principles on which the organization/association was founded upon. That is not to say you are denied in any way whatsoever from attempting to change, remove or improve upon those principles by an appropriate process.

 

[elixir]

This argument gets weaker and weaker as time goes by.

You would think that people would get it by now...Sans a merger with a larger APLA carrier, you Westies are toast. It seems that is exactly what you are all betting your career on...a merger with a larger ALPA carrier.

What if that doesn't happen? Do you think your "passive agression" tactic will work long-term?

I'm sorry, but I don't get it...there is a scenario whereby no merger happens, and LCC limps along as-is....is this the way you guys intend to proceed?

Befuddling.

Agree/disagree with USAPA..whatever, but the head-in-the-sand tactic is just silly.

 

[767jetz]

It is "sleigh" of hand and not slight. Unless you are talking about tiny hands.

My oh my. I've been publicly "outed" for missing an "e." Please forgive my sloppy typing oh great one!

Now how about riding off in your "sleigh."

sleigh - toboggan; sled; luge