AIRBUS CHECKS WHO IS LYING !!!
- Thread starter cat 111
- Start date
Dell,
That's my point. It seems the company is holding more cards in it's hand than the IAM is in their's. If the judge asks the company that, they only need to say something like we had the finances to begin ramping up work then, and we don't now, or the cost disparity is too large now, it was not then, or who knows what. Remember, I want this work in house, I just think it is not as easy as one may think getting it to stay.
That's my point. It seems the company is holding more cards in it's hand than the IAM is in their's. If the judge asks the company that, they only need to say something like we had the finances to begin ramping up work then, and we don't now, or the cost disparity is too large now, it was not then, or who knows what. Remember, I want this work in house, I just think it is not as easy as one may think getting it to stay.
Bob you are 100% incorrect, there is nothing to arbitrate, the UNION, not the company requests arbitration. You need to understand that their is no issue to arbitrate. The scope language is the IAM Mechanic and Related Agreement with US Airways has not changed in either round of concessions. If the company chooses to violate our contract and the courts consider it a major dispute we will STRIKE and shut this place down. If the court rules it a minor dispute, then we will take matters into our own hands and work exactly by the book.
Since 1949 we have flown many types of airplanes and when we got into the jet age, and the 737s. DC-9s, MD-80s, F100s, 757 and 767 came due for thier overhaul it was done by IAM members at US Airways, not a vendor.
We have 54 years of experience behind us, it is plain and simple, it is our work, no and if or buts, the company did not request any relief in two rounds of concessions, Chris Chiames even posted on this board that it is IAM work and the company will not vendor it out.
So when the executives at US lie through their teeth it just shows us none of them have any morals or scruples and they are nothing but a band of liars and thieves.
This is a fact, if the work is vendored out, we will shut this place down.
To 628, finances have nothing to do with the scope language, scope language is the language that makes your work exclusive, if finances were factors the company would vendor out all our jobs, which they do not have the right to do under our scope language. The only thing the judge or arbitrator can rule on is the contract language, which in our case there is no finances mentioned.
LavMan,
If you have followed some of the recent Labor Disputes at COMAIr and DELTA you willnotice that Federal Judges are quick to put an order against anything that resembles a work action and declare it illegal. COMAIR pilots simply started to ensure all discrepencies were noted in teh Log Can and a judge placed an order against them. At Delta the pilots attempted the same thing UAL pilots did in 2000 by not accepting open time which was theri contractual right and the court ruled against them as well. How willing is the IAM to suffer a contempt of court charge and a 40 million dollar fine?
If you have followed some of the recent Labor Disputes at COMAIr and DELTA you willnotice that Federal Judges are quick to put an order against anything that resembles a work action and declare it illegal. COMAIR pilots simply started to ensure all discrepencies were noted in teh Log Can and a judge placed an order against them. At Delta the pilots attempted the same thing UAL pilots did in 2000 by not accepting open time which was theri contractual right and the court ruled against them as well. How willing is the IAM to suffer a contempt of court charge and a 40 million dollar fine?
Dave and his band of thieves will be the cause of the shut down, they had thier opportunity to get concessions twice, if it causes US Airways to become another Eastern so be it. Becuase if we let them vendor out the airbus, what is to stop them from vendoring out the rest of the airplanes?
Dave has been warned over and over again.
Dave has been warned over and over again.
Comair was shut down by their striking pilots, a court never ordered them back to work nor did they impose a fine, Delta has only one organized group which is their pilots who have done nothing and was not taken to court.AM49AAA said:
And if you work exactly like the company's rules and regulations their is nothing anyone can do. AA's pilots represented by APA did a sick out which was a violation of the RLA.
I want to see proof of what you say DL and Comair did becuase they did not.
LavMan,
Prior to the COMAIR strike the pilots started writing up aircraft. All though the wrie-ups were legitimate the number was an increase of over 100%. Comair took the union to court and a Federal judge decided that it was an illegal organized work action because it so deviated from the previous norm of writeups and issue a cease and desist order against ALPA. This was during negotiations prior to the strike. The Delta issue was the same. The sudden refusal of picking up opentime during negotiations was deem an illegal work action even though their contractual rights allowed for it. Delta/ALPA appealed and the the appelate court upheld in the company's favor. If a judge ruled it a minor dispute and U/IAM engaged in activity that deviated from the historic norms the judge would likely determine it an illegal work action and issue a cease and desist order. Defying it would likely bring on contemp charges. You were way off on your facts in both cases.
Prior to the COMAIR strike the pilots started writing up aircraft. All though the wrie-ups were legitimate the number was an increase of over 100%. Comair took the union to court and a Federal judge decided that it was an illegal organized work action because it so deviated from the previous norm of writeups and issue a cease and desist order against ALPA. This was during negotiations prior to the strike. The Delta issue was the same. The sudden refusal of picking up opentime during negotiations was deem an illegal work action even though their contractual rights allowed for it. Delta/ALPA appealed and the the appelate court upheld in the company's favor. If a judge ruled it a minor dispute and U/IAM engaged in activity that deviated from the historic norms the judge would likely determine it an illegal work action and issue a cease and desist order. Defying it would likely bring on contemp charges. You were way off on your facts in both cases.
where is the proof?
Delta to appeal judge's refusal to issue injunction against pilots
Here is proof that Delta lost
http://edition.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/12/delta.pilots/
Delta to appeal judge's refusal to issue injunction against pilots
Here is proof that Delta lost
http://edition.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/12/delta.pilots/
The Railway Labor Act of 1926: A Case Study of an Antiquated, Broken Law
In April 1998 Comair and its pilots began a series of labor negotiations that did not end until June 2001,
38 months later. The protracted negotiations, including an 89-day strike, illustrate the need to modernize the
Railway Labor Act of 1926 to assure uninterrupted airline service.
June
Strike
endsvii
April
Negotiations begini
July
Mediation begins
under the
National Mediation
Board (NMB)ii
December
Pilot slowdowns ground 900 flights
and more than 23,000 passengersiii
December
Federal judge
prohibits pilot
illegal work
disruptionsiv
March
Pilots
strike,
ground
airlinev
May
Pilots reject NMB’s
proposed settlementvi
1998 1999 2000 2001
Protracted Airline Labor Negotiations
In nine sets of negotiations since 1994, including Comair, the average length of labor negotiations was three years.
One lasted 58 months—or four years and ten months.
Economic impact of strike:
• The Greater Cincinnati economy lost approximately $2 million per day during the strike due to lost spending by
pilots and passengers.viii
• As a result of the strike, more than 2,500 jobs were lost in the Kentucky region in the 1st half of 2001.ix
• The closure of Concourse C of the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport resulted in 152 layoffs and
lost concession sales exceeding $3 million.x
Airline/Union Years Duration Presidential Emergency Board Strike
United/IAM 1999-2002 27 months
Delta/ALPA 1999-2001 17 months
Comair/ALPA 1998-2001 38 months
Continental/IACP 1997-1998 14 months
Northwest IAM/AMFA 1996-2001 56 months
Northwest ALPA 1996-1998 25 months
USAir/AFA 1996-2000 47 months
American Airlines/APFA 1994-1997 35 months
FedEx/ALPA and FPA 1994-1999 58 months
Abbreviations:
AFA Association of Flight Attendants
ALPA Air Line Pilots Association
AMFA Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
APFA Association of Professional Flight Attendants
FPA FedEx Pilots Association
IACP International Association of Continental Pilots
IAM International Association of Machinists
i, ii “Comair pilots and management jointly request mediation,†July 20, 1999, PR Newswire
iii, iv “Court orders pilots to halt delays,†December 22, 1999, AP Newswires
v, vi, vii “Comair pilots strike at a glance,†June 23, 2001, Cincinnati Enquirer
viii, “Comair, pilots settle,†6/15/01, Cincinnati Enquirer
ix Mills, Jeffrey and Zinn, Thomas. “Estimating the Employment Effects of Strikes to Regional
Economies: The Economic Impact of the Comair Strike, University of Cincinnati, 2002
x “Airport vendors get rent credit,†6/26/
The Comair Strike
In April 1998 Comair and its pilots began a series of labor negotiations that did not end until June 2001,
38 months later. The protracted negotiations, including an 89-day strike, illustrate the need to modernize the
Railway Labor Act of 1926 to assure uninterrupted airline service.
June
Strike
endsvii
April
Negotiations begini
July
Mediation begins
under the
National Mediation
Board (NMB)ii
December
Pilot slowdowns ground 900 flights
and more than 23,000 passengersiii
December
Federal judge
prohibits pilot
illegal work
disruptionsiv
March
Pilots
strike,
ground
airlinev
May
Pilots reject NMB’s
proposed settlementvi
1998 1999 2000 2001
Protracted Airline Labor Negotiations
In nine sets of negotiations since 1994, including Comair, the average length of labor negotiations was three years.
One lasted 58 months—or four years and ten months.
Economic impact of strike:
• The Greater Cincinnati economy lost approximately $2 million per day during the strike due to lost spending by
pilots and passengers.viii
• As a result of the strike, more than 2,500 jobs were lost in the Kentucky region in the 1st half of 2001.ix
• The closure of Concourse C of the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport resulted in 152 layoffs and
lost concession sales exceeding $3 million.x
Airline/Union Years Duration Presidential Emergency Board Strike
United/IAM 1999-2002 27 months
Delta/ALPA 1999-2001 17 months
Comair/ALPA 1998-2001 38 months
Continental/IACP 1997-1998 14 months
Northwest IAM/AMFA 1996-2001 56 months
Northwest ALPA 1996-1998 25 months
USAir/AFA 1996-2000 47 months
American Airlines/APFA 1994-1997 35 months
FedEx/ALPA and FPA 1994-1999 58 months
Abbreviations:
AFA Association of Flight Attendants
ALPA Air Line Pilots Association
AMFA Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
APFA Association of Professional Flight Attendants
FPA FedEx Pilots Association
IACP International Association of Continental Pilots
IAM International Association of Machinists
i, ii “Comair pilots and management jointly request mediation,†July 20, 1999, PR Newswire
iii, iv “Court orders pilots to halt delays,†December 22, 1999, AP Newswires
v, vi, vii “Comair pilots strike at a glance,†June 23, 2001, Cincinnati Enquirer
viii, “Comair, pilots settle,†6/15/01, Cincinnati Enquirer
ix Mills, Jeffrey and Zinn, Thomas. “Estimating the Employment Effects of Strikes to Regional
Economies: The Economic Impact of the Comair Strike, University of Cincinnati, 2002
x “Airport vendors get rent credit,†6/26/
The Comair Strike
As you can see this articl is a couple of months later. There is your proof.
LATEST NEWS
February 15, 2001
Union asks pilots to accept overtime
The union representing Delta Air Lines pilots asked its members to follow a federal court injunction and halt a no-overtime work campaign.
The injunction, which was issued by the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia in Atlanta, bars members of the union from refusing to fly overtime hours and engaging in other actions that disrupt Delta operations.
The union said violators of the injunction may be subject to union discipline, employer discipline or contempt of court. Delta Air Lines pilots recently voted to authorize a strike if ongoing contract negotiations with Delta are unsuccessful. The pilots have been working to get a new contract since September 1999. Atlanta-based Delta operates its second-largest hub from the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
LATEST NEWS
February 15, 2001
Union asks pilots to accept overtime
The union representing Delta Air Lines pilots asked its members to follow a federal court injunction and halt a no-overtime work campaign.
The injunction, which was issued by the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia in Atlanta, bars members of the union from refusing to fly overtime hours and engaging in other actions that disrupt Delta operations.
The union said violators of the injunction may be subject to union discipline, employer discipline or contempt of court. Delta Air Lines pilots recently voted to authorize a strike if ongoing contract negotiations with Delta are unsuccessful. The pilots have been working to get a new contract since September 1999. Atlanta-based Delta operates its second-largest hub from the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Folks,
This issue Is nothing short of "monumental". This is a MAJOR class action and needs to be decided in the courts. I realize it will go through the arabitration course as we must exhaust the grievance process.
BUT, THERE MUST BE DAMAGES SOUGHT FOR THE MECHANICS AND RELATED IN MILLIONS given to the workers! AFA United received such an award in 2001 for $48 million right after 9/11 and was a wage arbitration award.
Mechanics must take this management to task.
What management doesn't realize yet is that they have "burned down all their bridges". They have abused ALL labor contracts and will not get support from any group. All employees are battling mangement. Who ever is giving management advice is only looking at one side of the equation.
There is a "chess game" going on and there is about to be a "check mate"!
This issue Is nothing short of "monumental". This is a MAJOR class action and needs to be decided in the courts. I realize it will go through the arabitration course as we must exhaust the grievance process.
BUT, THERE MUST BE DAMAGES SOUGHT FOR THE MECHANICS AND RELATED IN MILLIONS given to the workers! AFA United received such an award in 2001 for $48 million right after 9/11 and was a wage arbitration award.
Mechanics must take this management to task.
What management doesn't realize yet is that they have "burned down all their bridges". They have abused ALL labor contracts and will not get support from any group. All employees are battling mangement. Who ever is giving management advice is only looking at one side of the equation.
There is a "chess game" going on and there is about to be a "check mate"!
Remember the first bus S-Checks (aircraft 700-701-702) are due to be worked in 6-8 weeks. Something has to happen soon with either a third party contract awarded or the appropriate tooling and staffing will have to be put into place to get the work done.
If the company decides to farm it out, PineyBob is right. The company would every means necessary to delay and stall any potential ruling one way or the other, and with appeals it would likely drag on for years, most likely taking enough time to get the majority of the S-Checks done outside the company. I am sure if the company loses an initial ruling, they would appeal and find a judge to issue an injunction barring a "self-help" action until the matter is fully adjudicated.
While saying that, I think there will be a resolution somewhere in the middle between the work being done in house and farmed out. There is too much to lose for each side for them to not come to an agreement somewhere.
If the company decides to farm it out, PineyBob is right. The company would every means necessary to delay and stall any potential ruling one way or the other, and with appeals it would likely drag on for years, most likely taking enough time to get the majority of the S-Checks done outside the company. I am sure if the company loses an initial ruling, they would appeal and find a judge to issue an injunction barring a "self-help" action until the matter is fully adjudicated.
While saying that, I think there will be a resolution somewhere in the middle between the work being done in house and farmed out. There is too much to lose for each side for them to not come to an agreement somewhere.
Bob, there is no compromise, no middle ground. The work is exclusive to the IAM mechanic and related members at US Airways. Can you not understand the same statment that has been made over and over? The company had two rounds of concessions, they did not seek nor gain the ability to farmout the heavy maintenance of any airplane we fly. The company does not have the abrogation threat anymore as we are out of bankruptcy.
This is plain and simple, if they vendor it out, we will strike, numerous other unionized groups will be asked to support it and we will shut this place down, no blinking no bluffing.
Better go get some insurance for all your dividend miles, cause this place will no longer exist if Dave and his gang of thieves steal our work!
This is plain and simple, if they vendor it out, we will strike, numerous other unionized groups will be asked to support it and we will shut this place down, no blinking no bluffing.
Better go get some insurance for all your dividend miles, cause this place will no longer exist if Dave and his gang of thieves steal our work!
I agree with Pitbull...(Hope you were sitting down for that one Pitbull!!) The only way to stop actions such as this is to hit the parties in the pocketbook but as Piney has said be careful....the finances are much worse than anyone can imagine. My biggest concern is the IAM leadership. They don't want to lose U to AMFA and to show strength they very well may overplay this and lose the whole kit and kabootle.PITbull said:
On a side note. Rumor has it Chaimes and Dave were in GSO yesterday. Wonder if they were golfing with execs from Timco?? :angry: Rumor also has it their return flt to DCA was delayed due to.....drumroll please!! MTC!! Coincidence?
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