AIRBUS CHECKS WHO IS LYING !!!
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On 8/12/2003 4:28:17 AM LavMan wrote:
You just don't get it. Go to the law library and look at labor law, in North Carolina the section of law that covers labor is under master and servent.
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Oh I get it plenty Lavman !! On 8/12/2003 4:28:17 AM LavMan wrote:
You just don't get it. Go to the law library and look at labor law, in North Carolina the section of law that covers labor is under master and servent.
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I just don't have to subscribe to your particular brand of robotic self-indoctrination...and general thrill with arguement. I have asked some direct questions regarding how our contract mirrors that of the former IAM's at UA....and I think N628AU asked something along the same lines? Where did you carry this drama , beyond a silly arguement?.
I would swear I was dealing with an impressionable 18 year old at a Marine Corp Recruitment office when talking and listening to you at times..but you are good at researching your arguements..I'll give you that !! Too bad most of it is wasted motion and symantics..or will most likely be proven to be in short order , Un-less the IAM leadership lets their stones drop and gets our work secured for us. THAT IS THE ONLY POINT HERE !!!
Looking at ancient NC labor laws does not even begin to compare to what we are talking about here. This reply coupled to the stupidity of the comments about calling Dave Seigel " Master" is about as assinine as it gets. I've met the man..and I have gotten replies from e-mails I've sent him ...and Dave aka Mr.(Mister) or Master was never a term used or implied....unless it was in terms of the Mastery of some of our internal flaws and failures as I have seen them un-fold all too often...and when I see flaws...I see them in terms of the red ink-well runningeth over.
I gave Dave a good deal of credit upfront....and I do applaud the fact that we are now out of Chapter 11...and that sword can no longer be used as a tool against labor like it was before...and talk about poor form and demoralizing of the rank and file , he assuridly lost whatever initial support he had with many , by use of these methods....even ALPA whom was the first to align themselves with his invisionment of things found out the hard way....and I damn sure give them more credit for intelligence and savy than I do the IAM. We are dealing with a crafty soul....and that's putting it nicely
Just one more time for the slow learners. I do not buy off on everything..or even portions of what our leaders are doing...nor do I subscribe to the half-hearted efforts being put forth by our union in particular, to combat managements whims that will make more of my actual union friends suffer , should this continue to go un-checked..and un-resolved?.
This airline needs to be run properly...it needs to seek every opprotunity to resolve cost issues , via waste being brought to a halt , damage to Acft being brought into check..and last of all using common sense at all levels.
I can site a number of examples from the last 8 hours alone in a couple of our largest hubs....but shaming people individually , whom most likely don't care to begin with? , is pointless.
I can say that repairs to an active line Acft were delayed last night in a focus city..simply becasue of an out of date license plate on a truck...which would have been illegal to operate as intended on a public highway. The worst part is this...it's not the first , second or third time that I've heard feeble excuses like this from this same station....This has to make somebody ask "Who's minding the store" I know the duty manager wanted to know !!
I have to wonder in this situation , is this the Station Mgr's fault..is this GSE's fault...is it the departments foremans fault...or is it the workers place to be more observant and point these things out like this? Regardless of where the final blame lies....I see a shared responsibility on all of the aboves part...and they should all have to answer up for these kinda oversights.
I know when I have been assigned company vehicles in past jobs...I have always looked for inspection stickers and tags to be in compliance with the laws...because afterall I would be the one being ticketed for such a thing if behind the wheel. Yes a person did check last night...but it was too little too late to rectify a problem before it became one.
Basically a change in our culture...and a sense of ownership of the things that plague us..or hinder us is what's needed....and no single leader...or organized labor group can change this fact until all buy off on the desire to prevent avoidable failures
PITbull
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AOG,
I understand your position, and I am not one to educate you on anything as I know you understand both sides of the coin clearly and have just taken a position. But for those who read your post, I would like to express the "other side of the coin". Personally, even though I live in Pittsburgh I was not brought up in a Union household; my parents owned and operated a family restuarant for 40 years.
Unions are not necessary and almost never get in to a company where there is fair minded, reasonable mangement that respects and rewards their workers, and understands how employee morale effects their bottom line as a business. I am sure in my group their are flight attendants that do not agree with being a part of a union, but when taking the job had to join without their vote. As you know Unions in Pennsylvania is a closed shop an rightfully so. You can't threaten to do "self help" if your in a "right to work state", where folks will come to work if you don't. The law that protects workers rights to "self help" in this type of state is "benign". Unions are about creating a balance in a capitalistic environment. Most unionized employees, whether your a teacher, policemen, state worker, mechanic, flight attendant, ramp,DO NOT become wealthy by wages from a company. Most strive for a wage to live respectably in our society. And that means being able to support a family, save for retirement, pay for health care needs, and educate children. Some unionized workers however, can not, as we sit today with U.
Unions are under attack. Most Executives today think that corporations purpose only is to make money not only to "line the pockets of the investor", but to "line THEIR pockets" as well, as the elite employees. In fact, they look to eliminate workers where they can (get rid of heads) and automate in order to produce more profits. So, you have to ask yourself, how do we equalize the playing field so as not create a two class society in our country? What would happen to America and Americans if there were no "rebuttle" from the unions? Do you believe the answer is to educate everyone in this country with Masters and PHD's? Ok. Then what? Unions are one venue that helps to balance the economy. Presently, there are problems inherent in unions as a business, but you can create the "bylaws" to have checks and balances to right some of the wrongs. You may think unions are not needed. That success in a company and going up the corporate ladder is strictly by "merit", and that being union inhibits your ability to be recognized on merit. In the real world, though, many times folks go up the corporporate ladder for being "in bed" with the senior execs, or nepotism that prevents those who deserve it to move up.
The PIT Pres. will be drafting a letter to Senator Arlin Specter who meets with the Labor Coalition tomorrow regarding the Pittsburgh Hub. It is important to convey to the Republican thinkers that the "balance" is off kilter in the airline industry, and the workers who keep the planes in the air, fly passengers safely to their destinations in one peice and intact, are in jeopardy of survival. WE have saved the Industry as workers, but have traded places with our companies. I do not believe that was our initial idea or intent.
We will be asking for the PA Delegation's assistance in perserving "home-town" jobs, livable wage jobs in Pittsburgh. If my tax dollars are going to save an airport in order to keep U here in PIT, then IT HAS TO BE FOR "livable wage jobs". No McDonald's type of employment if you catch my drift. Pennsylvania workers, through their taxes that are unsheltered, put BACK into the koffers of PA, while U is busy thinking ways to deplete it. I may post the letter on the boards when it is finished depending on how I feel about it and if I want management to read it or not.
The AFA PIT President will present this to the Senator on behalf of the Pittsburgh flight attendants and all employees of our home town.
"Just another view of the "coin".
I understand your position, and I am not one to educate you on anything as I know you understand both sides of the coin clearly and have just taken a position. But for those who read your post, I would like to express the "other side of the coin". Personally, even though I live in Pittsburgh I was not brought up in a Union household; my parents owned and operated a family restuarant for 40 years.
Unions are not necessary and almost never get in to a company where there is fair minded, reasonable mangement that respects and rewards their workers, and understands how employee morale effects their bottom line as a business. I am sure in my group their are flight attendants that do not agree with being a part of a union, but when taking the job had to join without their vote. As you know Unions in Pennsylvania is a closed shop an rightfully so. You can't threaten to do "self help" if your in a "right to work state", where folks will come to work if you don't. The law that protects workers rights to "self help" in this type of state is "benign". Unions are about creating a balance in a capitalistic environment. Most unionized employees, whether your a teacher, policemen, state worker, mechanic, flight attendant, ramp,DO NOT become wealthy by wages from a company. Most strive for a wage to live respectably in our society. And that means being able to support a family, save for retirement, pay for health care needs, and educate children. Some unionized workers however, can not, as we sit today with U.
Unions are under attack. Most Executives today think that corporations purpose only is to make money not only to "line the pockets of the investor", but to "line THEIR pockets" as well, as the elite employees. In fact, they look to eliminate workers where they can (get rid of heads) and automate in order to produce more profits. So, you have to ask yourself, how do we equalize the playing field so as not create a two class society in our country? What would happen to America and Americans if there were no "rebuttle" from the unions? Do you believe the answer is to educate everyone in this country with Masters and PHD's? Ok. Then what? Unions are one venue that helps to balance the economy. Presently, there are problems inherent in unions as a business, but you can create the "bylaws" to have checks and balances to right some of the wrongs. You may think unions are not needed. That success in a company and going up the corporate ladder is strictly by "merit", and that being union inhibits your ability to be recognized on merit. In the real world, though, many times folks go up the corporporate ladder for being "in bed" with the senior execs, or nepotism that prevents those who deserve it to move up.
The PIT Pres. will be drafting a letter to Senator Arlin Specter who meets with the Labor Coalition tomorrow regarding the Pittsburgh Hub. It is important to convey to the Republican thinkers that the "balance" is off kilter in the airline industry, and the workers who keep the planes in the air, fly passengers safely to their destinations in one peice and intact, are in jeopardy of survival. WE have saved the Industry as workers, but have traded places with our companies. I do not believe that was our initial idea or intent.
We will be asking for the PA Delegation's assistance in perserving "home-town" jobs, livable wage jobs in Pittsburgh. If my tax dollars are going to save an airport in order to keep U here in PIT, then IT HAS TO BE FOR "livable wage jobs". No McDonald's type of employment if you catch my drift. Pennsylvania workers, through their taxes that are unsheltered, put BACK into the koffers of PA, while U is busy thinking ways to deplete it. I may post the letter on the boards when it is finished depending on how I feel about it and if I want management to read it or not.
The AFA PIT President will present this to the Senator on behalf of the Pittsburgh flight attendants and all employees of our home town.
"Just another view of the "coin".
Great post Pitbull!
And for AOG and 628, UA's contract language was and is vastly differant then the scope language in regards to overhaul of aircraft.
Preconcessions UAL had the ability to farm out 20% of their maintenance for overhaul.
Post concessions gave UAL the right to farm out more work and close down IND and OAK as heavy maintenance and only leave one main base at SFO for overhaul. The members also got the right for UAL inspectors to be placed at every MRO facility that UAL will contract with for overhaul of their planes.
At US Airways, our scope language in regards to overhaul and farm out has not changed one bit in the two concessionary packages we took.
US Airways/IAM Mechanic and Related Agreement States the Following:
The Company agrees that the following described work, wherever is recognized as coming within the jurisdiction of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and is covered by this Agreement: the making, assembling, erecting, dismantling, and repairing of all machinery, mechanical equipment, engines and motors of all description, including all work involved in dismantling, overhauling, repairing, fabricating, assembling, welding, and erecting all parts of airplanes , airplane engines, avionics equipment, electrical , heating system, and machine tool work in connection therewith, including all maintenance, construction and inpection work in and around all shops, hangars, building, and including the servicing, cleaning and polishing of airplanes and parts thereof, and the servicing and handling of all ground equipment ;erfromed in and about Company shops, Maintenance Bases, Aircraft Base Maintenance and Line Service Stations..
And for AOG and 628, UA's contract language was and is vastly differant then the scope language in regards to overhaul of aircraft.
Preconcessions UAL had the ability to farm out 20% of their maintenance for overhaul.
Post concessions gave UAL the right to farm out more work and close down IND and OAK as heavy maintenance and only leave one main base at SFO for overhaul. The members also got the right for UAL inspectors to be placed at every MRO facility that UAL will contract with for overhaul of their planes.
At US Airways, our scope language in regards to overhaul and farm out has not changed one bit in the two concessionary packages we took.
US Airways/IAM Mechanic and Related Agreement States the Following:
The Company agrees that the following described work, wherever is recognized as coming within the jurisdiction of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and is covered by this Agreement: the making, assembling, erecting, dismantling, and repairing of all machinery, mechanical equipment, engines and motors of all description, including all work involved in dismantling, overhauling, repairing, fabricating, assembling, welding, and erecting all parts of airplanes , airplane engines, avionics equipment, electrical , heating system, and machine tool work in connection therewith, including all maintenance, construction and inpection work in and around all shops, hangars, building, and including the servicing, cleaning and polishing of airplanes and parts thereof, and the servicing and handling of all ground equipment ;erfromed in and about Company shops, Maintenance Bases, Aircraft Base Maintenance and Line Service Stations..
aerosmith
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I couldn't of said it better myself. Excellent post.
blueoceans
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"The Company agrees that the following described work, wherever is recognized as coming within the jurisdiction of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and is covered by this Agreement: the making, assembling, erecting, dismantling, and repairing...."
Sounds like a good attempt at broad coverage, but it's been stated here before that engines, gear and other components are already farmed out. How many loop holes/amendments are there? What would happen if there's no IAM for the jurisdiction to fall under (as often voiced on this board) ?
Sounds like a good attempt at broad coverage, but it's been stated here before that engines, gear and other components are already farmed out. How many loop holes/amendments are there? What would happen if there's no IAM for the jurisdiction to fall under (as often voiced on this board) ?
Lav,
First of all, thank you for posting that even if you only answered half of my request. That language would state that the company oculd not farm out overhaul on aircraft engines (done by GE), Landing gear (I believe the B737 is still wokred in house, but the other fleets are outsourced), avionics (try getting ahold of Thales in the middle of the night when we need an overdue repair order), or the numberous other vendor items there are. Where does the contract allow the company to do that, and what makes any of those cases any different from the company saying we do not have the tooling/facilities/training/expereince/whatever on the Airbus?
The Airbus work MUST STAY IN HOUSE! I wholeheartedly agree with that, and wish more was so we had more positive control over our own inventory. So for the second request on this thread, please post that, or is it just that the IAM did not fight for it before, in which case makes it hard to say we need to keep this and not that. Judges tend to frown on forcibly enforcing contracts which have not been fully enforced previously.
As for your ongoing tit for tat with AOG, everything he says is correct, and I have posted as such since the planner group was "accreted" into the IAM. No vote, not even ratification of the accretion agreement. I can tell you first hand how it feels to pay dues to have a voice in representation and have someone make a decision for you, ala some of the ALPA MEC Ratifications. I have no put in three resumes/COBS for open planning jobs in the past couple of months. Got one interview, and AOG got the position (as he should have been first back). Second COB, no call back, third not closed yet. Why the he!! did I send in a recall card if the job is going to posting online for the general public to look at and I receive no phone call or any type of recall notice from the company. No, I have not moved or changed my phone number. like AOG asked, did you have to interview to move from Stores to Utility? If the ramp feels the IAM treats them as second class citizens, the planner group are definitely the redheaded step children. Asking for respect is not too much to ask.
And please don't bring this "Do you attend any meetings?" nonsense into this. I made repeated requests to represent our group in negotiations as a member of the management team was one of the Company negotiators, and got not so much as a response back from the AGC in charge. Please defend those actions.
First of all, thank you for posting that even if you only answered half of my request. That language would state that the company oculd not farm out overhaul on aircraft engines (done by GE), Landing gear (I believe the B737 is still wokred in house, but the other fleets are outsourced), avionics (try getting ahold of Thales in the middle of the night when we need an overdue repair order), or the numberous other vendor items there are. Where does the contract allow the company to do that, and what makes any of those cases any different from the company saying we do not have the tooling/facilities/training/expereince/whatever on the Airbus?
The Airbus work MUST STAY IN HOUSE! I wholeheartedly agree with that, and wish more was so we had more positive control over our own inventory. So for the second request on this thread, please post that, or is it just that the IAM did not fight for it before, in which case makes it hard to say we need to keep this and not that. Judges tend to frown on forcibly enforcing contracts which have not been fully enforced previously.
As for your ongoing tit for tat with AOG, everything he says is correct, and I have posted as such since the planner group was "accreted" into the IAM. No vote, not even ratification of the accretion agreement. I can tell you first hand how it feels to pay dues to have a voice in representation and have someone make a decision for you, ala some of the ALPA MEC Ratifications. I have no put in three resumes/COBS for open planning jobs in the past couple of months. Got one interview, and AOG got the position (as he should have been first back). Second COB, no call back, third not closed yet. Why the he!! did I send in a recall card if the job is going to posting online for the general public to look at and I receive no phone call or any type of recall notice from the company. No, I have not moved or changed my phone number. like AOG asked, did you have to interview to move from Stores to Utility? If the ramp feels the IAM treats them as second class citizens, the planner group are definitely the redheaded step children. Asking for respect is not too much to ask.
And please don't bring this "Do you attend any meetings?" nonsense into this. I made repeated requests to represent our group in negotiations as a member of the management team was one of the Company negotiators, and got not so much as a response back from the AGC in charge. Please defend those actions.
Thank you Pitbull, N628AU and Lavman,
Pitbull my friend.... I agree with every word you said my friend , USAirways , USAir or even Allegheny did create an atmosphere that makes Unions an absolute must. I agree that without them...employees with this company would be in one hell of a fix. No dispute there..by any stretch of the imagination. Lets just say that we see eye to eye on this subject.
Lavman my friend....now that my good friend N628AU has posed added examples as to why we have a real heartburn with how the IAM has treated us...and continue to take money from us for lack luster representation...and un-equal treatment in regards to position bidding and the alike , hopefully you will just see our point and back off on trying to sell us on how great thou art in regards to this. By the way....thanks for actually trying to awnser our collective question on verbage differences between UA and our present situation. Lets hope that this can be resolved before it destroys not only more union members lives...but possibly the entire airline?
N628AU my friend....You hang in thier my brother , this mess is going to resolve itself before long. The Planning department is coming un-glued in PIT...and CLT has at least one opening in Heavy. Your day is coming....but as I feared , not going north for the winter like I did is likely holding you up. My old man whom was IAM with McDonnell Douglas in the good old days always told me...it's better to be seeking a job while you have a job...or work from withn the confines of the known.
I'm not knocking your choice on accepting furlough over a transfer...cuz I respect your views and your willingness to explore other avenues. I just had a really bad feeling about what it would take to get back in , if you chose the path you did..and we have had this conversation before in person...maybe another bar side chat is due Amigo?. By and large...talent and intelligence always has it's way of winning out...and in respect to you , that winning day is going to come. BTW...call me , I have some bad news regarding a mutual friend to share with you.
Hopefully after a unique four way exchange...we all now understand one anothers position better...and will hopefully respect those positions in kind.
To Pitbull and Lavman only. Friends...in one last parting comment on this thread. I understand exactly why a Union/Unions need to be part of the plan here....and I hope people like you always have a union to represent you...and you both take that active involvement required to make them better for the majority. You can clearly see that better was not part of the game plan..when N628AU and I were taken in....we were no more than added union dues to thier account. The un-equal bidding rights..and un-equal ability to change jobs or rejoin the ranks without going thru "Targeted Selection" like a new hire spells this out clearly. We are not equal , except on how our dues clear the bank.
Pitbull my friend.... I agree with every word you said my friend , USAirways , USAir or even Allegheny did create an atmosphere that makes Unions an absolute must. I agree that without them...employees with this company would be in one hell of a fix. No dispute there..by any stretch of the imagination. Lets just say that we see eye to eye on this subject.
Lavman my friend....now that my good friend N628AU has posed added examples as to why we have a real heartburn with how the IAM has treated us...and continue to take money from us for lack luster representation...and un-equal treatment in regards to position bidding and the alike , hopefully you will just see our point and back off on trying to sell us on how great thou art in regards to this. By the way....thanks for actually trying to awnser our collective question on verbage differences between UA and our present situation. Lets hope that this can be resolved before it destroys not only more union members lives...but possibly the entire airline?
N628AU my friend....You hang in thier my brother , this mess is going to resolve itself before long. The Planning department is coming un-glued in PIT...and CLT has at least one opening in Heavy. Your day is coming....but as I feared , not going north for the winter like I did is likely holding you up. My old man whom was IAM with McDonnell Douglas in the good old days always told me...it's better to be seeking a job while you have a job...or work from withn the confines of the known.
I'm not knocking your choice on accepting furlough over a transfer...cuz I respect your views and your willingness to explore other avenues. I just had a really bad feeling about what it would take to get back in , if you chose the path you did..and we have had this conversation before in person...maybe another bar side chat is due Amigo?. By and large...talent and intelligence always has it's way of winning out...and in respect to you , that winning day is going to come. BTW...call me , I have some bad news regarding a mutual friend to share with you.
Hopefully after a unique four way exchange...we all now understand one anothers position better...and will hopefully respect those positions in kind.
To Pitbull and Lavman only. Friends...in one last parting comment on this thread. I understand exactly why a Union/Unions need to be part of the plan here....and I hope people like you always have a union to represent you...and you both take that active involvement required to make them better for the majority. You can clearly see that better was not part of the game plan..when N628AU and I were taken in....we were no more than added union dues to thier account. The un-equal bidding rights..and un-equal ability to change jobs or rejoin the ranks without going thru "Targeted Selection" like a new hire spells this out clearly. We are not equal , except on how our dues clear the bank.
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On 8/12/2003 3
27 AM AOG-N-IT wrote:
AOG-N-IT replies...had it not been for the union meddling in my career path. I would have not lost out on many things
(1) Two years worth of "Performance Based" raises for one
(2) A promotion to a Senior Position based on performance , attendance and all the other things that seperate good employees from those that have to duck behind the unions skirts when they fail to make muster.
(3) Regarding concessions We took losses in our department in only one respect. We lost three very talented people due to the union lumping job catagories into one basket. I had to take a bite just to fight my way back in based on senority only..merit means nothing...and that negates the individual which I find hard to handle...but then again I have always been a free thinking and speaking person. Try it sometime.
(4) Had I remained an at will employee during this? I would have taken the same bite as all the other MSP folks...and that I can live with...but I would not be paying for shoddy representation on top of it. The IAM made no changes in my income..except downward in all respects..so where's my incentive to work with this garbage?
(5) My quality of life also went into the proverbial toilet. Prior to the union I was working three days one week ...and four days the next. That's kinda rich digs for a single guy employed by an airline don'tcha think? Hard to get happy after you see what your union has cost me isn't it?
(6) I would have never been bumped to PIT without labor group consolidation , thanks to the IAM...and I would have never had to endure targeted selection to return to my job. Did you get bumped to PIT..did you have to interview to go from stores to dumping lavs? I'm willing to bet not !! So before you fire up the cut and paste propaganda machine again....it's best to realize that we all do not have the same issues that drive us.
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On 8/12/2003 3
27 AM AOG-N-IT wrote: AOG-N-IT replies...had it not been for the union meddling in my career path. I would have not lost out on many things
(1) Two years worth of "Performance Based" raises for one
(2) A promotion to a Senior Position based on performance , attendance and all the other things that seperate good employees from those that have to duck behind the unions skirts when they fail to make muster.
(3) Regarding concessions We took losses in our department in only one respect. We lost three very talented people due to the union lumping job catagories into one basket. I had to take a bite just to fight my way back in based on senority only..merit means nothing...and that negates the individual which I find hard to handle...but then again I have always been a free thinking and speaking person. Try it sometime.
(4) Had I remained an at will employee during this? I would have taken the same bite as all the other MSP folks...and that I can live with...but I would not be paying for shoddy representation on top of it. The IAM made no changes in my income..except downward in all respects..so where's my incentive to work with this garbage?
(5) My quality of life also went into the proverbial toilet. Prior to the union I was working three days one week ...and four days the next. That's kinda rich digs for a single guy employed by an airline don'tcha think? Hard to get happy after you see what your union has cost me isn't it?
(6) I would have never been bumped to PIT without labor group consolidation , thanks to the IAM...and I would have never had to endure targeted selection to return to my job. Did you get bumped to PIT..did you have to interview to go from stores to dumping lavs? I'm willing to bet not !! So before you fire up the cut and paste propaganda machine again....it's best to realize that we all do not have the same issues that drive us.
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Preach on!!!!!!
to much time to quit
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On 8/12/2003 10:39:48 AM LavMan wrote:
And for AOG and 628, UA's contract language was and is vastly differant then the scope language in regards to overhaul of aircraft.
Preconcessions UAL had the ability to farm out 20% of their maintenance for overhaul.
Post concessions gave UAL the right to farm out more work and close down IND and OAK as heavy maintenance and only leave one main base at SFO for overhaul. The members also got the right for UAL inspectors to be placed at every MRO facility that UAL will contract with for overhaul of their planes
Lav, lets not sugar coat the real truth about ual's iam negotiated agreement. Post concessions gave the right to farm ALL HEAVY MAINTENANCE AWAY at United. SFO does C-checks only! All their 777's are sitting at timco in GSO awaiting checks that was handed them from the frightened machinists. What a great deal that was, negotiate thousands of jobs away to work out some inspection language at every facility. Thats nothing to brag about. The iam got what it deserved at UAL. The truth is out there so no sense in deceiving the people on this board. Then again you are well trained in deception by the iam. Seeing your so knowledgable about contracts, labor law, and unions how about posting the so called grievances that Lieberger is referring to in his vicious letter about farm out. If indeed a precedence has been set surely you can post a copy of the final ruling concerning future work,pay,etc. Unless of course that information is top secret classified documents that the common dues paying member is not allowed to view.
And for AOG and 628, UA's contract language was and is vastly differant then the scope language in regards to overhaul of aircraft.
Preconcessions UAL had the ability to farm out 20% of their maintenance for overhaul.
Post concessions gave UAL the right to farm out more work and close down IND and OAK as heavy maintenance and only leave one main base at SFO for overhaul. The members also got the right for UAL inspectors to be placed at every MRO facility that UAL will contract with for overhaul of their planes
Lav, lets not sugar coat the real truth about ual's iam negotiated agreement. Post concessions gave the right to farm ALL HEAVY MAINTENANCE AWAY at United. SFO does C-checks only! All their 777's are sitting at timco in GSO awaiting checks that was handed them from the frightened machinists. What a great deal that was, negotiate thousands of jobs away to work out some inspection language at every facility. Thats nothing to brag about. The iam got what it deserved at UAL. The truth is out there so no sense in deceiving the people on this board. Then again you are well trained in deception by the iam. Seeing your so knowledgable about contracts, labor law, and unions how about posting the so called grievances that Lieberger is referring to in his vicious letter about farm out. If indeed a precedence has been set surely you can post a copy of the final ruling concerning future work,pay,etc. Unless of course that information is top secret classified documents that the common dues paying member is not allowed to view.
US or PI never overhauled the GEs, the IAM lost an abritration case in regards to the CFM 56s as all the tooling disapeared from the PSA engine shop, but the case was not a total loss, the aribitor ruled that if the company closes a facility down it does not give them the right to farm out the work.
The 737 gear is done in house, the 767/757 is overhauled by a vendor as the tanks in INT Gear shop is not large enough to encompass that gear and the Airbus narrow body gear is tentativly suppose to be done inhouse as soon as the modify some of the plating tanks in INT.
The 737 gear is done in house, the 767/757 is overhauled by a vendor as the tanks in INT Gear shop is not large enough to encompass that gear and the Airbus narrow body gear is tentativly suppose to be done inhouse as soon as the modify some of the plating tanks in INT.
i must make a comment here that i think many are overlooking....whether you be pro amfa or pro iam.,i see here a lack of faith in the negotiated contract....to my knowledge the iam negotiated agreement to this date has not been violated.am i correct???
when contracts are negotiated,they are, :if i'm correct, subject to the letter of the law....and doesn't this letter of law state unequivecably that the stated work belongs soley to the iam as per the contraact?is there anything in that contract that says anything different than i've stated?please correct me if i am (I AM-NO PUN INTENDED)wrong....and if you closely investigate the agreement between the IAM and the company..i see several references as to AIRBUS TRAINING ,AIRBUS TRAINING BID OUT LIMITATIONS AND SO FORTH....so i think that if the company tries to claim that airbuses weren't covered or mentioned in our last agreement...the term 'boosheet' comes to mind....also i must mention that our officials in 141-m are and will be tasked with defending our contract as agreed by the company in a court of law if need be.....if you take the time to read your scope of the agreement,as lavman has provided,you will see that the company at the time of negotiations let this verbage continue....however and please note:::::all concerned whether PRO AMFAor IAM.....the company had at the time of contract modifications,the opportunity to change this scope of the agreement to rectify this problem(airbus 's'chks) and they apparently let it slide......and now shall we bow down and let them take our contractually guaranteed work?they will only get what YOU and I will let them.....so take heed.
you can bash the IAM all you want...but the bottom line here is they will get what YOU are willing to let go,much as REPEET let go from his work area.
when contracts are negotiated,they are, :if i'm correct, subject to the letter of the law....and doesn't this letter of law state unequivecably that the stated work belongs soley to the iam as per the contraact?is there anything in that contract that says anything different than i've stated?please correct me if i am (I AM-NO PUN INTENDED)wrong....and if you closely investigate the agreement between the IAM and the company..i see several references as to AIRBUS TRAINING ,AIRBUS TRAINING BID OUT LIMITATIONS AND SO FORTH....so i think that if the company tries to claim that airbuses weren't covered or mentioned in our last agreement...the term 'boosheet' comes to mind....also i must mention that our officials in 141-m are and will be tasked with defending our contract as agreed by the company in a court of law if need be.....if you take the time to read your scope of the agreement,as lavman has provided,you will see that the company at the time of negotiations let this verbage continue....however and please note:::::all concerned whether PRO AMFAor IAM.....the company had at the time of contract modifications,the opportunity to change this scope of the agreement to rectify this problem(airbus 's'chks) and they apparently let it slide......and now shall we bow down and let them take our contractually guaranteed work?they will only get what YOU and I will let them.....so take heed.
you can bash the IAM all you want...but the bottom line here is they will get what YOU are willing to let go,much as REPEET let go from his work area.
repeet
Veteran
On Aug.13
delldude said:
"you can bash the IAM all you want...but the bottom line here is they will (only) get what YOU are willing to let go,much as REPEET let go from his work area."
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All right then. I have talked to, and lobbied, the A.G.C.s. I have lobbied, and talked to, the the contract Negotiators. We have presented business cases. We have yelled at management, and we have witten over a hundred grievances. ( all of which our A.G.C.'s came to "an understanding" with the company).
Pray tell, just what can the shop personnel do to stop the farming out of our work, when the A.G.C.'s won't fight for your grievances.
Honestly tell me, so that we can do it!
delldude said:
"you can bash the IAM all you want...but the bottom line here is they will (only) get what YOU are willing to let go,much as REPEET let go from his work area."
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All right then. I have talked to, and lobbied, the A.G.C.s. I have lobbied, and talked to, the the contract Negotiators. We have presented business cases. We have yelled at management, and we have witten over a hundred grievances. ( all of which our A.G.C.'s came to "an understanding" with the company).
Pray tell, just what can the shop personnel do to stop the farming out of our work, when the A.G.C.'s won't fight for your grievances.
Honestly tell me, so that we can do it!
Lav,LavMan said:
Since my last point did not make the transition to the new BB, I must say this. Your postings regarding the gear is exactly the point the company will make regarding the Airbus work. The lack of real fight previously may just come back to haunt the IAM now.
I can tell you, just because we have tooling that has never been used for the Airbus fleet does not mean that tooling is for the S-check. AOG had posted regarding the damaged nose cowl in SEA where we did not have adequate inventory of both the slings and dollys, much less do we have inventory to keep two heavy tracks going (four slings and dollys). I can remember borrowing tooling from NW for an Airbus in DCA, and NW only had it in their DLH maintenance center, as they really only used it overhaul. We had none of this item in inventory.
I shudder to think what a judge would say about this. There seems to be an opening where if the company stance is that they do not have tooling/equipment/facilities/whatever, they can farm it out. I say this not liking that idea one bit. The holy grail of the IAM contract, the scope, may just have as many holes as swiss cheese. If that is the case, the IAM is toast if there is a representation vote between the IAM and AMFA. I am no fan of AMFA either, I think the devil you know is better than the one you don't, but if the IAM cannot secure this work in house (which takes a lot more than a cut and paste of a contract paragraph), what good is having any representation?
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