AAA ALPA Thread 9-14 to 9-21, East ALPA here

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Here, I'll dumb it down a bit for you:

A new union will not make the Nicolau decision go away.

Herndon must be listening to you...

Changing Unions to Change Seniority?
Look Before You Leap

The self-appointed leaders of the movement to establish an independent union for US Airways pilots want East pilots to think that support for their outfit is a one-way ticket to getting the seniority arrangement that they claim that pre-merger US Airways pilots deserve.

These pilots say that, because seniority is part of a contract between labor and management, they can bargain away the results of the Nicolau award, make an agreement with management to change seniority, and put West pilots in their “rightful†place. They even promise to make “date of hire†seniority a part of the new union’s constitution and bylaws.

Do all East pilots believe that? If you think it’s so simple, unwelcome developments await. Why, if it’s that easy, have ALPA pilots just like you repeatedly discussed and decided to retain merger policy and make its results final and binding? Why didn’t they just leave seniority to be bargained like duty rigs, pay rates, benefits?

Here's why:

First, can a new union just bargain away the results of the seniority award?

Virtually everyone agrees that a new union will be bound to honor the existing agreements between ALPA and US Airways/America West—including the Transition Agreement (which requires the parties to implement the results of ALPA Merger Policy in a new, single agreement). So a new union (if it wants to get out of the seniority award) would have to negotiate with management and get management to agree to reject the award.

This means that management would have to be willing to accept years of litigation, legal costs, and substantial risk, knowing full well that there will be instant lawsuits by West pilots. Is it realistic? What if management, instead, refuses to bargain changes to the Transition Agreement? What if management, based on legal grounds and risk, won’t agree to throw out or modify the seniority list and the Nicolau award?

And what are the financial and legal risks to an independent union and those who pay dues to it? There will be years of paying lawyers before the legal dust settles (if it ever does). Will the independent union win in court after spending all that money? Without financial support from West pilots, how much will it cost East pilots to pursue this course?

The supporters of a new union assume that management will agree to a new seniority list and that this agreement will be upheld by the courts. They refer to lawsuits where ALPA successfully defended changes in seniority—for example, the agreement with United that restored the seniority of the Group of 570 (new-hires who honored the United strike in 1985) over the seniority of pilots hired during or immediately after the strike. (Have they told you that United pilots gave up $200 million in contract improvements, according to the court, to get United to put the striking 570 ahead of replacements and others?)

The case the new union leaders point to is Rakestraw v. United Airlines and ALPA, 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992). The Seventh Circuit judges said things in that case that you haven’t been told about:

“[A] union may not take away the seniority of some employees for no reason other than that the losers have too few votes to affect the outcome of an intra-union election. . . .â€
“[A] union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one group of employees over another. The change must rationally promote the aggregate welfare of employees in the bargaining unit.â€
Does it still seem simple, or do these words raise questions about how successful a new union would be?

Other judges considered ALPA Merger Policy when some Air Wisconsin pilots tried to get out of a seniority award in a merger with Mississippi Valley by (unsuccessfully) trying to change unions (Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213, 7th Cir. 1990). These judges said:

“We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool [italics added].â€
Does this sound familiar?

Second, what would happen in the unlikely event that a new union succeeded in changing the seniority list and successfully defended the lawsuits?

This is a classic case of “be careful what you wish for.†The new-union promoters argue that seniority can be changed at will. If the courts somehow agree that the independent union can stick it to the pre-merger America West pilots, then the same union can stick it right back to the remaining pre-merger US Airways pilots—with interest—when West pilots and new-hires outnumber East pilots.

Back and forth it will go while management looks on and exacts its payment for every seniority U-turn. What do your job security and contract look like in that world? Does it still look so easy?

This is why ALPA pilots like you developed merger policy in the first place. The judges in the Air Wisconsin case had it right when they talked about ALPA Merger Policy. They concluded that

“The alternative to placing so much power in the hands of an arbitrator would be to encourage continuing and acrimonious disputes among workers by opening seniority to continual revision.â€

“The reason for the policy [of finality] is not hard to see. If ALPA were free to ignore the merged seniority list, the employees of the post-merger airline would have very little job security; as a concomitant, disputes over seniority would fester—as they have done in this case, in which plaintiffs are indirectly challenging the finality of the merged seniority list.â€

“The system that ALPA has created for determining seniority in a merged workforce is not biased in favor of one group of workers or prejudiced against another. It was as likely to yield an award in favor of Air Wisconsin’s pilots as in favor of Mississippi Valley’s. It is fair, and nothing more is required to comply with the duty of fair representation.â€
So these federal judges got it. If a seniority award means nothing and everyone’s seniority is always on the table, your seniority may be served up as the next course. When will that end? Does it still seem easy?

Third, if you think ALPA policy is a problem now, see what it looks like when you’re outside the union.

The leaders who want a new union know something they’re not telling you. They’ve told you that ALPA Merger Policy doesn’t apply to an independent union. Then what happens when Mr. Parker decides to sell US Airways to another airline—most likely a larger ALPA carrier. Who will protect your seniority then? If East pilots trash the Nicolau award, what will happen in the next seniority integration with another arbitrator? What will stop another ALPA pilot group from trying to impose on you, one way or another, the same outcome that American pilots imposed on TWA pilots? Does the course still seem straightforward?

The questions are difficult but the message is simple: If you think that seniority problems are solved or helped by changing to a different union, you should look very carefully before you leap.
 
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Prechillill,

Do you always violate rules? And, what does that say about your character? You're just like Junebug, who not only represents -- he flat out lies.

Meanwhile, when the AWA pilots realize they cannot force the US Airways pilots to agree to a joint contract, the lausuit will continue for many, many years, and by that time USAPA will replace ALPA then maybe a compromise to this mess can be obtained.

Furthermore, now that we know that "ALPA’s last Wilson poll number showed them that 60% of west pilots would take a small raise for giving the east up to a 6-year fence and a new ratio to get us out of this mess. They already know that for a given price, the majority of the AWA pilots will trade Doogie Dollars for Prater Positions. Now Herndon needs to know how much of a “small raiseâ€￾ it would take to get that 50% + 1. Now back to that Small Raise…the top hourly numbers being thrown around are $160 for B757 and $150 for A320, B737 15 year Captains."

"For the East, it looks like a bribe to back off their opposition to the Nicolau Award. For the West, it looks like legal extortion, threatening no action on the presentation of the Nicolau Award without some give in the award’s language."

Prechillill, the AWA pilots have no leverage and the US Airways pilots control whether or not there will be a seniority integratation because the East pilots can veto any joint contract and they have the majority of votes for a new union. With the recent Wilson Poll results the US Airways pilots know the AWA pilots have no will or resolve and they will "cave".

It's game, set, and match! Now, if the AWA MEC was smart they would cut a deal now so the AWA pilots can get a seniority improvement and a pay raise.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
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  • #78
Prechillill,

The ALPA Just the Facts II was anticipated by USAPA. ALPA is fighting back in an attempt to try to prevent ALPA from being "kicked off" of the East property and USAPA imposed on the West pilots. This clearly shows ALPA's fear is clearly evident, otherwise why would ALPA have written the document? The ALPA Just the Facts has just increased the East pilot result to never, ever let the current Nicolau Award stand.

It's game, set, and match!

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
Here, I'll dumb it down a bit for you:

A new union will not make the Nicolau decision go away.

You can't dumb something down for dummies!! They just keep on missing the facts don't they?? Well the worst is now yet to come. I've been told that a large group of West pilots have collected funds and hired a law firm out of St Louis. Web site coming soon too. This is what I was afraid of, it's going to get personal and assets are going to be lost, I can just feel it...
 
You can't dumb something down for dummies!! They just keep on missing the facts don't they?? Well the worst is now yet to come. I've been told that a large group of West pilots have collected funds and hired a law firm out of St Louis. Web site coming soon too. This is what I was afraid of, it's going to get personal and assets are going to be lost, I can just feel it...

There is nothing to really be afraid of. I think you have a good title for a new book: Arbitration 101 for dummies. This could be required reading for all the east pilots!
 
Prechillill,

The ALPA Just the Facts II was anticipated by USAPA. ALPA is fighting back in an attempt to try to prevent ALPA from being "kicked off" of the East property and USAPA imposed on the West pilots. This clearly shows ALPA's fear is clearly evident, otherwise why would ALPA have written the document? The ALPA Just the Facts has just increased the East pilot result to never, ever let the current Nicolau Award stand.

It's game, set, and match!

Regards,

USA320Pilot


Hahaha you're killing me!! You ain't gonna impose jack on us!! I suggest you ready yourself for EAL, CAL part two. No one in the west will pay dues, no one in the west will support your efforts in fact I can assure you that the west will do the exact opposite of all you do. Most of you will retire under that bankruptcy contract called LOA 93 plus you will be sued both personally and as a whole USAPA!! Now keep in mind, I don't care how I get my money as long as I get it. If it means that some of your children will have to for go college or you have to sell your homes to pay I could care less but pay you will and dearly. We have been somewhat nice up to now but your garbage is getting old the air up here on the high road is getting a bit stale. Translation? We are coming down and will get right in the gutter with you on this thing...
 
Hahaha you're killing me!! You ain't gonna impose jack on us!! I suggest you ready yourself for EAL, CAL part two. No one in the west will pay dues, no one in the west will support your efforts in fact I can assure you that the west will do the exact opposite of all you do. Most of you will retire under that bankruptcy contract called LOA 93 plus you will be sued both personally and as a whole USAPA!! Now keep in mind, I don't care how I get my money as long as I get it. If it means that some of your children will have to for go college or you have to sell your homes to pay I could care less but pay you will and dearly. We have been somewhat nice up to now but your garbage is getting old the air up here on the high road is getting a bit stale. Translation? We are coming down and will get right in the gutter with you on this thing...


Maybe they can all author a book "How to Succeed in Arbitration" or "How I got Ahead in Aviation". It would make millions of yen, possibly even pesos. Who knows, they could even start a reality TV show like "Career Idle" or something like that! Wow. The sky is the limit!
 
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  • #85
AWA320,

AWA320 said: "Hahaha you're killing me!! You ain't gonna impose jack on us!! I suggest you ready yourself for EAL, CAL part two. No one in the west will pay dues, no one in the west will support your efforts in fact I can assure you that the west will do the exact opposite of all you do."

USA320Pilot comments: Unnion members are required to pay dues and assesments and if they do not they are placed in bad standing. However, the company is still required to withhold a portion of your dues, which will be forwarded to USAPA. And, if a pilot does not pay their remaining dues then USAPA can request the company begin termination proceedings, which the company is required to do.

Therefore, do not pay your USAPA dues and get fired, which I'm sure is o.k. with the majority of East pilots. By the way, will you take Prechillill, Junebug, and Luvn737s with you? I believe Virgin America and JetBlue are accepting applications.

As I said, the last Wilson Poll has shown that the majority of West pilots would take a small raise for giving the east up to a 6-year fence, a new seniority integration, and widebody (current and replacement) freezes. After that when DOH furlough protection and future merger protections are incorporated into a joint contract and then the parties can negotiate the rest of the joint contract beginning on September 24. Otherwise, the West pilots will likely feel union "imposition" if there is not a compromise.

I found it interesting that both ALPA and the Company have clearly shown their USAPA fear with their recent letters, especially ALPA's begging the East pilots to not decertify. Don't you agree that if USAPA ws not a threat there would be no need for both the Company and ALAP to write letters, two days before the EC meeting with the two MEC's?

By the way, today US Airways East (not West) had another Furlough Indoc class with about 70 pilots scheduled to attend. Everybody knows that not all 70 will report, but CLT Training personel will report to USAPA who attended and who resigned. This will permit USAPA to verify the exact authorization count validty for these 70 pilots, and, with just one more Furlough Indoc scheduled in early October, then USAPA will know the exact number of cards necessary to force an election and then the NMB Form 1 can be filed.

I can't wait to see "Just the Facts III"...

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
Now keep in mind, I don't care how I get my money as long as I get it.


Spoken like a true "Brother Pilot" from the ranks of AWA :lol: I assume that such "honor" enabled your feeble attempt at defending the AWA/UAL scum that went down under with the Ansett shame. Once more, you demonstrate the proper morals of the AWA "Righeous Position" that we all know to be noble and honorable :rolleyes: No surprise that you're a big proponent of Alpo ;)

Feel free to make a grab for my property. Bring friends..(plural by way of charitably assuming that you have at least two) and full meals for a long time.

You little puppies become more ridiculously funny by each passing moment :lol: I shouldn't really laugh though..it seems that you're entering the downright pathetic phase lately.

"We are coming down and will get right in the gutter with you on this thing..." When did you ever fantasize that your efforts to steal from others to have ever been otherwise located than "right in the gutter"? ;) Your variable, and very interesting "thought" and general sentiments bespeak to me of a person who would need a sizeable ladder to climb up to gutter level ;)

Do keep up the great postings...but, you really should charge for this sort of grins-producing material. ;)
 
AWA320,
Everybody knows that not all 70 will report, but CLT Training personel will report to USAPA who attended and who resigned. This will permit USAPA to verify the exact authorization count validty for these 70 pilots, and, with just one more Furlough Indoc scheduled in early October, then USAPA will know the exact number of cards necessary to force an election and then the NMB Form 1 can be filed.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
I cant wait till the company hammers employees for releasing confidential information to non-parites.

Dig your grave a little deeper with each post.
 
You can't dumb something down for dummies!! They just keep on missing the facts don't they?? Well the worst is now yet to come. I've been told that a large group of West pilots have collected funds and hired a law firm out of St Louis. Web site coming soon too. This is what I was afraid of, it's going to get personal and assets are going to be lost, I can just feel it...

"You can't dumb something down for dummies!!" Do you parse like this intentionally?..or just for the chuckles I/others get from Yogi Berra speech?..Thanks in either case :lol:

"I can just feel it..." Sounds like it has become a "personal" problem...Suggested protocal = See a doctor and get rid of it. :lol:
 
I cant wait till the company hammers employees for releasing confidential information to non-parites.

Dig your grave a little deeper with each post.


"I cant wait till the company hammers employees" Hmm..so much for you being the slightest sort of actual Unionist :lol:
 
I cant wait till the company hammers employees for releasing confidential information to non-parites.

Dig your grave a little deeper with each post.
At least we did not release our body fluids into passenger and pilot luggage like your peers did in 1992 when you were having problems with company negotiations.
 
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