AAA ALPA Thread 9-14 to 9-21, East ALPA here

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn737s,

You were an EAL pilot and now you spew your garbage. You should be ashamed of your self!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bear96]

"Do I believe in arbitration? I do. But not in arbitration between the lion and the lamb, in which the lamb is in the morning found inside the lion."
Samuel Gompers

Did you even pause to think about this quote and its relevance to the current situation before you posted it?

How was West possibly the lion in your analogy?

 

[electricjet98]

Changing Unions to Change Seniority?
Look Before You Leap

The self-appointed leaders of the movement to establish an independent union for US Airways pilots want East pilots to think that support for their outfit is a one-way ticket to getting the seniority arrangement that they claim that pre-merger US Airways pilots deserve.

These pilots say that, because seniority is part of a contract between labor and management, they can bargain away the results of the Nicolau award, make an agreement with management to change seniority, and put West pilots in their “rightful†place. They even promise to make “date of hire†seniority a part of the new union’s constitution and bylaws.

Do all East pilots believe that? If you think it’s so simple, unwelcome developments await. Why, if it’s that easy, have ALPA pilots just like you repeatedly discussed and decided to retain merger policy and make its results final and binding? Why didn’t they just leave seniority to be bargained like duty rigs, pay rates, benefits?

Here's why:

First, can a new union just bargain away the results of the seniority award?

Virtually everyone agrees that a new union will be bound to honor the existing agreements between ALPA and US Airways/America West—including the Transition Agreement (which requires the parties to implement the results of ALPA Merger Policy in a new, single agreement). So a new union (if it wants to get out of the seniority award) would have to negotiate with management and get management to agree to reject the award.

This means that management would have to be willing to accept years of litigation, legal costs, and substantial risk, knowing full well that there will be instant lawsuits by West pilots. Is it realistic? What if management, instead, refuses to bargain changes to the Transition Agreement? What if management, based on legal grounds and risk, won’t agree to throw out or modify the seniority list and the Nicolau award?

And what are the financial and legal risks to an independent union and those who pay dues to it? There will be years of paying lawyers before the legal dust settles (if it ever does). Will the independent union win in court after spending all that money? Without financial support from West pilots, how much will it cost East pilots to pursue this course?

The supporters of a new union assume that management will agree to a new seniority list and that this agreement will be upheld by the courts. They refer to lawsuits where ALPA successfully defended changes in seniority—for example, the agreement with United that restored the seniority of the Group of 570 (new-hires who honored the United strike in 1985) over the seniority of pilots hired during or immediately after the strike. (Have they told you that United pilots gave up $200 million in contract improvements, according to the court, to get United to put the striking 570 ahead of replacements and others?)

The case the new union leaders point to is Rakestraw v. United Airlines and ALPA, 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992). The Seventh Circuit judges said things in that case that you haven’t been told about:

“[A] union may not take away the seniority of some employees for no reason other than that the losers have too few votes to affect the outcome of an intra-union election. . . .â€
“[A] union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one group of employees over another. The change must rationally promote the aggregate welfare of employees in the bargaining unit.â€
Does it still seem simple, or do these words raise questions about how successful a new union would be?

Other judges considered ALPA Merger Policy when some Air Wisconsin pilots tried to get out of a seniority award in a merger with Mississippi Valley by (unsuccessfully) trying to change unions (Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213, 7th Cir. 1990). These judges said:

“We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool [italics added].â€
Does this sound familiar?

Second, what would happen in the unlikely event that a new union succeeded in changing the seniority list and successfully defended the lawsuits?

This is a classic case of “be careful what you wish for.†The new-union promoters argue that seniority can be changed at will. If the courts somehow agree that the independent union can stick it to the pre-merger America West pilots, then the same union can stick it right back to the remaining pre-merger US Airways pilots—with interest—when West pilots and new-hires outnumber East pilots.

Back and forth it will go while management looks on and exacts its payment for every seniority U-turn. What do your job security and contract look like in that world? Does it still look so easy?

This is why ALPA pilots like you developed merger policy in the first place. The judges in the Air Wisconsin case had it right when they talked about ALPA Merger Policy. They concluded that

“The alternative to placing so much power in the hands of an arbitrator would be to encourage continuing and acrimonious disputes among workers by opening seniority to continual revision.â€

“The reason for the policy [of finality] is not hard to see. If ALPA were free to ignore the merged seniority list, the employees of the post-merger airline would have very little job security; as a concomitant, disputes over seniority would fester—as they have done in this case, in which plaintiffs are indirectly challenging the finality of the merged seniority list.â€

“The system that ALPA has created for determining seniority in a merged workforce is not biased in favor of one group of workers or prejudiced against another. It was as likely to yield an award in favor of Air Wisconsin’s pilots as in favor of Mississippi Valley’s. It is fair, and nothing more is required to comply with the duty of fair representation.â€
So these federal judges got it. If a seniority award means nothing and everyone’s seniority is always on the table, your seniority may be served up as the next course. When will that end? Does it still seem easy?

Third, if you think ALPA policy is a problem now, see what it looks like when you’re outside the union.

The leaders who want a new union know something they’re not telling you. They’ve told you that ALPA Merger Policy doesn’t apply to an independent union. Then what happens when Mr. Parker decides to sell US Airways to another airline—most likely a larger ALPA carrier. Who will protect your seniority then? If East pilots trash the Nicolau award, what will happen in the next seniority integration with another arbitrator? What will stop another ALPA pilot group from trying to impose on you, one way or another, the same outcome that American pilots imposed on TWA pilots? Does the course still seem straightforward?

The questions are difficult but the message is simple: If you think that seniority problems are solved or helped by changing to a different union, you should look very carefully before you leap.

 

[USA320Pilot]

As you know, the US Airways MEC recently passed a resolution “recognizing that US Airways pilots have faced multiple sequential months of 95 hour pay caps and 5 hour flexes for the majority of 2007 and the amount of time away from home that is required to fly such monthly schedules, creating hardships that our pilots' families endure during such high workloads. Since holiday months are traditionally time spent with family and friends, the MEC designates November 2007 as “SAP Awareness Month" so as to offer some relief from the hardships placed on the pilots' families. During November’s "SAP Awareness Month 2007,†the US Airways MEC members, officers, committee members and all ALPA members on AFB status, will limit their scheduled hours to the minimum allowed through SAP and any other legal means.â€

However, I believe it is important to note that SAP’ing down to the Floor does not mean pilots cannot get paid up to their pay cap of 90 or 95 hours. For example, according to the A320 Pilot’s Handbook, 2b.10.5, “Do not start an engine until pushback complete when aircraft is being directed by hand signals only.†And, per the LGA Airport Advisory Page the "New York/New Jersey Port Authority is enforcing A321 taxi speed limits at LGA:

- 15 knots: while taxiing straight on taxiways parallel to runways.
- 15 knots: turning on runways, and
- 5 knots: turning and taxiing at 45 degrees or 90 degrees (to runways) on taxiways."

In my opinion, by strictly adhering to the FOM and not doing other peoples jobs, between the time a trip departs and arrives back at its domicle, this could permit a pilot to obtain the maximum pay cap without flying more than the SAP adjusted minimum obligation (picking up additional trips, which could violate the pay cap).

Furthermore, I want to emphasis the importance of professionalism and the importance to limit scheduled hours to the minimum allowed through SAP and any other legal means,†but this does not mean you cannot obtain full flight pay.

Speaking of "Doug's Fund", please click onto the link below:

See Story

Finally, I believe the East pilots will win the Nicolau Award fight, but the pilots must, must stick together to do so!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Teamwork is the ability to work together toward a common vision. The ability to direct individual accomplishments toward organizational objectives. It is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results. -- Andrew Carnegie

 

[sharktooth]

Did you even pause to think about this quote and its relevance to the current situation before you posted it?

How was West possibly the lion in your analogy?

For those who have problems seeing relationships and attaching simple ideas because they cannot discern context, you may wish to concentrate on the idea that it doesn't matter who ends up in whose stomach, the idea that one ends up consumed by the other renders the idea of arbitration unacceptable to good old Sam, in other words, no windfall.

Excellent quote, BTW. Thanks, nos.

 

[nostradamus]

Did you even pause to think about this quote and its relevance to the current situation before you posted it?

How was West possibly the lion in your analogy?

When Bruce Lakefield and David Bonner arranged for 1.6 billion dollars of fanancing for the merger. The needed someone to launder their money and Doug Parker accepted this.

In the finance business the lion analogy is the one who has the most power and money, they do not have to have a mane and tail, they just have to have the power, predatory instinct and hunger for the almighty dollar.

Try pausing before you post your self interests and camouflage it as educated opinions.

 

[nostradamus]

Changing Unions to Change Seniority?
Look Before You Leap

blah, blah, blah


The questions are difficult but the message is simple: If you think that seniority problems are solved or helped by changing to a different union, you should look very carefully before you leap.

Too long of a post, it needs an enema and that will put it down to a few words

 

[Piedmont1984]

With regard to Just the Facts, Part Deux.

Regarding point one, the East is trying to capture their own attrition. Should years of legal battles ensue, even if we lose in the end, we still succeed in capturing those retirements.

Regarding point two, once the East pilots retire, the yonger West pilots can do what they wish; but by then they will have become the older generation of pilots and they will have lived in a DOH environment for some time. They will by then have something truly invested in length of service - and they may change their minds about the importance of the DOH principle.

Regarding point three, thanks again John Prater, the TWA pilots were ALPA. How did they do Einstein?

 

[USA320Pilot]

In my opinion, ALPA National is scared to death of USAPA, which is why they took the time to write Just the Facts I & II.

ALPA is very concerned on the run on the "Mother Ship" when the US Airways pilots kick ALPA off of the property and a new union is "imposed" on the AWA pilots. Moreover, this could help the UAL pilots in their effort to remove ALPA too.

Meanwhile, the company is scared to death as well, which is why management is now writing letters to USAPA's president. However, the reason for the Company's letter to USAPA is not USAPA's responsibility.

Piedmont1984, your points are dead-on accurate again.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

Finally, I believe the East pilots will win the Nicolau Award fight, but the pilots must, must stick together to do so!

Never happen x2.

 

[Junebug172]

Regarding point one, the East is trying to capture their own attrition. Should years of legal battles ensue, even if we lose in the end, we still succeed in capturing those retirements.

All the while working under LOA93 and AWA pilots making more money.

Bravo, champ!!! Have fun.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

Piedmont1984 said: "Regarding point one, the East is trying to capture their own attrition. Should years of legal battles ensue, even if we lose in the end, we still succeed in capturing those retirements."

Junebug responded: "All the while working under LOA93 and AWA pilots making more money. Bravo, champ!!! Have fun."

USA320Pilot comments: Junebug, this year US Airways East has recalled over 500 pilots and there are over 200 vacant positions in November and December alone. Each bid US Airways F/O's upgrade to Captain, Reserves to Lineholders, and Narrowbody pilots to Widebody pilots. Each of these promotions provide pilots meaningful pay raises and in many cases these attrition based promtions are greater than what is expected in a joint contract with improved quality of life. Furthermore, LOA 93 provides the East pilots with a $70 million in lump sum payments, which is over $20,000 per pilot, and there will be another 500 pilots added to the payroll next year (mostly to the East side of the operation).

Do the US Airways pilots want a pay raise? Yes, of course, but the vast majority of East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93 and continue to capture their attrtion based career expecation, which could include the new A340 flying, by not permitting the Nicolau Award to be implemented. Once the AWA pilots understand that the US Airways pilots will not give up their leverage then the AWA pilots can obtain a pay raise and move up the seniority list.

Finally, I understand the AWA MEC does not have EC support to immediately implement the Nicolau Award and today's Just the Facts clearly shows ALPA's USAPA fear. Interesting, huh?

Speaking of USAPA, according to their website, "We have received a copy of a flier, alleged by the Company to have been posted in US Airways’ workplaces by a US Airways pilot, advocating a “No-Fly Day.â€￾ The flier includes a reference to USAPA. We hereby advise all US Airways pilots that the flier in question was neither published nor authorized by USAPA. In our view, the suggested No-Fly Day would be both a violation of the Railway Labor Act and contrary to the interests of the pilot group. If you want change, then sign and submit the USAPA authorization card found below. Do not participate in an illegal job action that would subject the pilot group to court action and potential sanctions. Instead, change to a labor union whose exclusive mission is to protect the interests of US Airways pilots. Click here for an Authorization Card."

Junebug, the only way out of this mess is for the AWA MEC to negotiate an agreement acceptable to the US Airways pilots including fences, widebody restrictions for current and replacement aircraft, DOH furlough protections, and future merger protections; otherwise this war will continue with AWA union "imposition" likely happening in the near-term.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bear96]

When Bruce Lakefield and David Bonner arranged for 1.6 billion dollars of fanancing for the merger. The needed someone to launder their money and Doug Parker accepted this.

In the finance business the lion analogy is the one who has the most power and money, they do not have to have a mane and tail, they just have to have the power, predatory instinct and hunger for the almighty dollar.

Oh, I see.

Lakefield, Bonner and Parker are West pilots.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Bear96]

Too long of a post, it needs an enema and that will put it down to a few words

Here, I'll dumb it down a bit for you:

A new union will not make the Nicolau decision go away.

 

[prechilill]

otherwise this war will continue with AWA union
Regards,

USA320Pilot

Chip, thanks for your honesty.