AAA ALPA Thread 9-14 to 9-21, East ALPA here

[EastUS]

Or perhaps a negotiated equivalent that attempts to equalize the playing field?

The problem with that however is that the time for that type of discussion required foresight rather then hindsight. My point is that this point should have been negotiated and settled before submitting that issue to an arbitrator.

Agreed. There "should have been" an actually functional "union" working the problem..there wasn't. "Should have been" means nothing in real life, as I'm sure you, and most all of us know.

 

[hp_fa]

Agreed. There "should have been" an actually functional "union" working the problem..there wasn't. "Should have been" means nothing in real life, as I'm sure you, and most all of us know.

OK, help me out here. Am I wrong in thinking that the "actually functioning 'union'" you refer to in a sarcastic way is really the East MEC and its committees? ALPA National, if I understand correctly, is neutral in connection with negotiations and/or arbitration between ALPA affiliates. So, if I am correct, doesn't any fault lie locally rather then nationally? Also, doesn't any prospective leadership of USAPA come from the same group of folks who elected the current East ALPA leadership? (I understand that supposedly any current ALPA officer may be barred from leadership at USAPA, but the folks that elected them are some of the folks that would take office if USAPA is ratified as the bargaining agent.)

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Should have been" means nothing in real life, as I'm sure you, and most all of us know.

I must be tripp'n on that stuff Nos reminded us of. I cannot believe I'm gonna agree with EastUS!!! Too bad you easties can't apply this line of thinking to the award.

"Yeah it should have been... But it's not..."

Great post EastUS!!!!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

OK, help me out here. Am I wrong in thinking that the "actually functioning 'union'" you refer to in a sarcastic way is really the East MEC and its committees? ALPA National, if I understand correctly, is neutral in connection with negotiations and/or arbitration between ALPA affiliates. So, if I am correct, doesn't any fault lie locally rather then nationally?

No you are not wrong. Slowly their excuses for their behavior has begun to whittle away.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

OK, help me out here. Am I wrong in thinking that the "actually functioning 'union'" you refer to in a sarcastic way is really the East MEC and its committees? ALPA National, if I understand correctly, is neutral in connection with negotiations and/or arbitration between ALPA affiliates. So, if I am correct, doesn't any fault lie locally rather then nationally? Also, doesn't any prospective leadership of USAPA come from the same group of folks who elected the current East ALPA leadership? (I understand that supposedly any current ALPA officer may be barred from leadership at USAPA, but the folks that elected them are some of the folks that would take office if USAPA is ratified as the bargaining agent.)

We all operate under the banner and direction of Nationals' Constitution and Bylaws. Or as we have learned "guidelines". Sorry about the same group of folks. Many of us have not participated in ALPA politics for many years, for just cause I might add. I have also learned that character assassinations is now a sanctioned "tactic" under those same policies. Current ALPA officers are not permanently barred, just in the short term due to a conflict of interest. Finally, you have what you have, the same folks who hopefully will see the light about ALPA, its politics and a very flawed system in the way it does business. Good questions that you have asked before, but you have to understand that many of us have had enough of ALPA and its time for a change.

 

[EastUS]

I must be tripp'n on that stuff Nos reminded us of. I cannot believe I'm gonna agree with EastUS!!! Too bad you easties can't apply this line of thinking to the award.

"Yeah it should have been... But it's not..."

Great post EastUS!!!!!!

I do apply this thinking to the "award" :blink: If, when driving with a child in the car who's not fastened his/her seatbelt..and it "should have been" fastened...do you blithely continue on?, or pull over and fix the problem?

Much has been made as to the "award"/gift/absurdity being the "fault" of the east. It isn't. It's a product of Alpo at it's finest. The "Association", clearly not to be confused with any actual Union, dropped it's established merger policy in favor of some then politically correct, and ill defined BS that's left us all in this current mess. That these posts continue to resonate with what amounts to verbal warfare over an unworkable scenario, that's fragmented the east/west into hostile antagonists, should serve even the dimmest a wake up call as to just how sad a job Alpo's done/is doing. I think it's far past time to pull over and attend to the Alpo "child"

As for "Slowly their excuses for their behavior has begun to whittle away"? I'll refer you to your opener = "I must be tripp'n on that stuff Nos reminded us of. "

 

[Tiger 1050]

I do apply this thinking to the "award" :blink: If, when driving with a child in the car who's not fastened his/her seatbelt..and it "should have been" fastened...do you blithely continue on?, or pull over and fix the problem?

Much has been made as to the "award"/gift/absurdity being the "fault" of the east. It isn't. It's a product of Alpo at it's finest. The "Association", clearly not to be confused with any actual Union, dropped it's established merger policy in favor of some then politically correct, and ill defined BS that's left us all in this current mess. That these posts continue to resonate with what amounts to verbal warfare over an unworkable scenario, that's fragmented the east/west into hostile antagonists, should serve even the dimmest a wake up call as to just how sad a job Alpo's done/is doing. I think it's far past time to pull over and attend to the Alpo "child"

As for "Slowly their excuses for their behavior has begun to whittle away"? I'll refer you to your opener = "I must be tripp'n on that stuff Nos reminded us of. "

I'll agree ALPO certainly is not making friends. Not out west anyhow... But our reasons for bashing ALPA differ. You feel the seniority integration is flawed. We believe we followed the rules and ALPA is unwilling to follow their own CBL's by not presenting the list all because they are afraid of losing dues... Honestly I believe that if USAPA doesn't find it's way in over this issue it will somewhere down the road. The only reason the west IMO supports ALPA is to prevent USAPA from imposing changes to the Nic award....

 

[EastUS]

I'll agree ALPO certainly is not making friends. Not out west anyhow... But our reasons for bashing ALPA differ. You feel the seniority integration is flawed. We believe we followed the rules and ALPA is unwilling to follow their own CBL's by not presenting the list all because they are afraid of losing dues... Honestly I believe that if USAPA doesn't find it's way in over this issue it will somewhere down the road. The only reason the west IMO supports ALPA is to prevent USAPA from imposing changes to the Nic award....

Understood. Please get that our disgust with Alpo isn't solely based upon the Nic disaster for our two groups getting together...it goes waaay back, and concerns many, many issues.

Do you begin to see just how much the whole, unsavory mess has harmed both our groups? Thanks Alpo...thanks a lot.

Not too flail an already way-past-dead horse, but: If the Nic thing wasn't such a great gift to the west..why would you guys be so adamant about keeping it? That's merely for consideration, and is pretty much rhetorical in nature. I'd like nothing more than to see some workable solution for all of is. Nic ain't it...and I sure as HELL don't see Alpo as being it for ANY flying pilots in the country.

PS: I mean this, amazingly enough, without any inended disrespect: Have you guys out there just NOW started to see that Alpo's emperor has no clothes because of the lack of any Alpo spine to proceed with the "award"? Think that they'd have hesitated an instant to shove whatever down your throats if it suited the eastern majority/major dues base/etc? Please consider, and imagine seeing two+ decades of similar, or worse floundering...all the while listening to Alpo elites telling everyone how "smart they are" Despite any/all fantasies to the contrary, at least 2300+ cards for decertification are on file, and more coming daily. Don't think, for even a moment, that such a flood's based purely upon Nic, nor that the goal of USAPA is to hose over the west. The seniority thing's a bee-yatch to work out..but it can/must be done...if we are actually not about to be sold off piecemeal anyway......Alpo's a different issue.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Not too flail an already way-past-dead horse, but: If the Nic thing wasn't such a great gift to the west..why would you guys be so adamant about keeping it? That's merely for consideration, and is pretty much rhetorical in nature. I'd like nothing more than to see some workable solution for all of is. Nic ain't it...and I sure as HELL don't see Alpo as being it for ANY flying pilots in the country.

Well I can only speak for myself but I think our collective attitude stems from the fact that we were prepared to be hammered. We were told from the start that we should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. As a 3yr F/O I thought I'd end up banished to the bottom of the list for an eternity at best, or furloughed at worst. Neither of which seemed real attractive considering I was happy enough with my career expectations as an AWA pilot. It's fair to say that neither side wanted this but it happened anyhow. So back to the point... When the Nic award came out it proved to provide a much more palatable situation for me. I would essentially be placed right where I was on the AWA list. Nothing gained. Nothing lost. Granted this is my personal situation and I recognize that it won't fit all scenarios... Anyhow so the story goes...

 

[Tiger 1050]

In reading my last post one might conclude that I would support fences. Well I wouldn't actually. I feel the time to negotiate fences has long since passed. We were unable to find a workable solution and that led us to the arbitration. Now I believe we should get on with our lives.

Does Nic hurt the east? Yeah for some I'm sure it does... But I think that should have been thought about long before we brought Nicolau into this...

 

[Junebug172]

...why would you guys be so adamant about keeping it?

That's where your disconnect is.

A great gift to the west would be to have the east butts stapled under Odell.

This list didn't do that. What it did was justly integrate our lists based on relatively seniority. Both sides came in with seniority and it was respected accordingly.

You east guys are pissed because we didn't get stapled.

That's why we're so adamant about keeping it - IT WAS FAIR!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

That's where your disconnect is.

A great gift to the west would be to have the east butts stapled under Odell.

This list didn't do that. What it did was justly integrate our lists based on relatively seniority. Both sides came in with seniority and it was respected accordingly.

You east guys are pissed because we didn't get stapled.

That's why we're so adamant about keeping it - IT WAS FAIR!!

I agree. It was fair as it did repsect the seniority you had walking into this integration...

 

[Junebug172]

Why?

I think, as well as others, that you are, well, bonkers. Humor requires intellect, something you demonstrate time and again that you are incapable of. It really fits in with your comments, that you are indeed dumber than fertilizer. Thanks for pointing that out to us.

"Bonkers" eh? Guess that was a popular word growing up in the 50's, right?

Anyway, kitten, relax. You sound miffed.

Deep breaths.

 

[EastUS]

Well I can only speak for myself but I think our collective attitude stems from the fact that we were prepared to be hammered. We were told from the start that we should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. As a 3yr F/O I thought I'd end up banished to the bottom of the list for an eternity at best, or furloughed at worst. Neither of which seemed real attractive considering I was happy enough with my career expectations as an AWA pilot. It's fair to say that neither side wanted this but it happened anyhow. So back to the point... When the Nic award came out it proved to provide a much more palatable situation for me. I would essentially be placed right where I was on the AWA list. Nothing gained. Nothing lost. Granted this is my personal situation and I recognize that it won't fit all scenarios... Anyhow so the story goes...

Hmm..given that"Doug" is on record noting that, "without the merger..you would be in worse position...as a 3 year FO, you probably wouldn't have a job"

How do you work that one through the amazing lens "clearly" in use out there?

No matter. We've got the current mess to deal with as best as we all can. I'll do everything..that's EVERYTHING possible to keep this atrocity, wherein which you might be able to displace, say, a specific Bro of mine, who's survived a good deal of combat, and has flown professionally since the time you were, at best, in grade school, from EVER taking his seat. I've many more in mind than this one example. On a purely selfish note? = I'd far rather have those guys in the shared cockpit than 3 year sorts. The job's far easier, conversation's fully viable..without having to ask "What do you want to do when you grow up?" In fairness?..I've given up glib answers to that last question long ago

 

[EastUS]

"Bonkers" eh? Guess that was a popular word growing up in the 50's, right?

Anyway, kitten, relax. You sound miffed.

Deep breaths.

Well..you've gotta' admit that all the postings with the designer pics (pickleball/wonderman/etc) do little to enhance your image as other than a rather...confused....something

I'm clearly no venerable object lesson in forum decorum: I've done my share of challenging ranting..but I'm always fine with backing my mouth up. How does one possibly "back up" your BS?