AAA ALPA Thread 10/12 to 10/18

[aquagreen73s]

Please,

Let's not forget that the AAA pilots wrote a good portion of the current ALPA merger policy. No one at national did that.

The irony is beautiful.

I've seen a lot of statements from both sides that ALPA will look out for it's best interests. What everyone forgets is that ALPA is the group of pilots that control ALPA. It isn't national. It is UAL and DAL and NWA. And for a while it was AAA.

I guess we need to define what ALPA National is. Essentially, it's run by a select number of pilots who personally enjoy enormous benefits that their former collegues flying the line don't even come close to enjoying. I'm not impugning the character of each National officer, but let's face it - human nature is human nature. The problem we have is a structural problem and although we should leave it to another thread to discuss ALPA National's imperfections, I can at least offer the suggestion that the Association would be run very diiferently if the pilots running it only received their flight pay and nothing else.

On another thread I wrote of the challenge to the merger policy by the regionals about 10 years ago.

I found your post to be very interesting. Once again, I think it boils down to a bad idea being generated by a group of select pilots who pretty much lost touch with what the profession means and how to defend it.

The very reason AAA wants to defect is because of what they themselves wrote into national policy by taking these kinds of issues out of the hands of pilots and putting them into an impartial process.

I suspect a majority of the East pilots know this. AAA#6 and Traderjake are the majority, not the minority.

This is my first merger and having heard the stories from past mergers I continue to say that if this is as bad as it gets then I really don't see what everyone is so upset about. Seems kind of mild mannered to me overall. I was expecting something really bad. I haven't seen bad yet.
Bob

Sheeesh! Not bad???? :blink: :unsure: I guess everything is relative in life. Your perspective is refreshing. Hopefully, this hostility will be over soon and perhaps a better leadership for all LCC pilots will emerge. It's up to the rank and file. Period.

 

[luvn737s]

On a day to day basis....do also consider all that the "Association" has done "for" us over the years. Dunno 'bout you..but I'm still just a bit miffed over them tossing out over a million dollars in retirement that was stolen from me without ANY vote/input/etc from me...aren't you? Now?...A buncha Alpo Notionals are working to take over the contract/seniority issue around campus here, import "foreign" airlines' pilots to do the thinking for us..and, without any input from the line pilots here, once again seek to force what's "best for Alpo" on everyone. Personally? : I'm a little bit past tired of this kind of BS. Alpa National as a negotiator for our futures..Aren't they the very same guys who couldn't even stand up to their secretarial staff not long ago?...said staff now making far more money than an average line FO? This is period of record profits. Why aren't record wages and benefits being sought, nay...DEMANDED? Do you really expect anything "good" from that outfit?

That'd all be "Byegones" if the AWA guys had been hosed by DOH. Classic .

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Also I am no ALPA boy. But what is the better deal to be had. It's easy for USAPA to print stickers, make a website, and make CLAIMS. But where are the GUARANTEES.

There are no guarantees. Luckily the founding fathers of our country didn't look for guarantees either. We know it will be an uphill battle and a lot of hard work to unite this group. But like all challenges you have to start somewhere. With each ALPA blunder year after year, it has taught me one thing, never trust an association that answers to many masters. Where is it written that we have to match the impotent ALPA power base? Look what it has done for us so far.

How many ALPA carriers have quit ALPA, only to come back to ALPA? Why? Because the pilot group couldn't fund it. USAPA will never have deep pockets like ALPA. As much as you hate them, USAPA can never match the power they have.

And what power would that be? To keep the rank and file in line with Nationals wishes? To keep the money flowing in? Our pockets are fine right now and getting better each day. Besides, ALPA may be $170m poorer in the future.

How is USAPA gonna fund the medical examiner, loss of licesne, legal help, staffing of the office, legal counsel, rent, ...etc..etc.
Your kidding me if you think that the minute we go into a merger that we won't be broke, why? Because ALPA has deep pockets and probably a little vengence towards USAPA.

Your kidding, right? What medical examiner would that be? The one you already pay to get your medical? If you mean something along the lines of ALPA Aeromedical, we are in negotiations with a company now. Loss of License? Same thing. Legal? Already have the attorneys. Rent? Check the website, it's cheaper in CLT. Broke? Not again, our dues will go to USAPA, not ALPA. Besides, we're doing quite well on voluntary donations as of now. Merger? Sorry, it's actually better if we're not ALPA.

If some of the USAPA guys stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, maybe I'd listen!!

Did you enjoy your last layover hotel? All USAPA business meetings are to be held at layover hotels. If needed. Meetings will be at domicile airports. Not in MHT or wherever.

Finally, if you have your 30 years as you say you do, then you're one of the protected pilots that AWA is complaining about. My guess is you're afraid of finally having to stand up for something. Hence your guarantee required statement. US East has not been unified for my 20+ years and my guess is you have been a major part of that disunity.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Let's not forget that the AAA pilots wrote a good portion of the current ALPA merger policy. No one at national did that.

Lets also not forget, that no one outside of the "Comittee" voted on it. Or was it the BOD that approved it? Either way, I didn't have the slightest say in any way over such a major policy change. At least you will be given every opportunity to vote with USAPA. It will be up to you to participate.

 

[hp_fa]

Nearly 500 newhires will be coming onto the property over the next twelve months and they are the ones who are most vulnerable to an economic downturn and/or a merger. I can't imagine that any of them are willing to expose themselves to additional risk by supporting USAPA when USAPA simply cannot do anything for them except screw them. Stop and think for a minute...USAPA preaches DOH yet what's the DOH for all the newhires?

OK, I question how how post-merger new hires will realize any difference between ALPA or USAPA. No matter who the bargaining rep is, these folks will clearly be at the bottom of any list, so how does it make a difference to these specific post-merger hires?

There will be a cramdown, the cramdown will arrive prior to Christmas, and the cramdown will be somewhere between the East/West differences . Although anything other than a pure and unadulterated implementation of Nic is what should happen, the reality is otherwise. The East has already benefitted magnificently over the last few months in terms of pilot upgrades and movement on the seniority list and that will continue for the next several months.

I'm not questioning a cramdown, but I am questioning the wisdom in cramming down anything that isn't in the Nicolau award. ALPA National, if they were to cramdown something other then that award would have problems with both the West folks and the rest of their membership. (No matter what happens they already have problems with East.) The West folks would be saying that they negotiated, arbitrated and now ALPA must enforce that arbitration. Pure and simple. The other non-US Airways ALPA members would wonder what kind of union they belong to if National were to do anything but enforce the decision. Why would they ever trust ALPA in the future if ALPA were to break it's own rules and impose a decision other then that arrived at other then by negotiations or, failing that, arbitration. So how do you see ALPA National cramming down anything other then the Nicolau award?

Since this all seems headed for court, ALPA National can't give a court any reason to question the ALPA merger policy or ALPA enforcement of it's own constitution and by-laws.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I guess we need to define what ALPA National is. Essentially, it's run by a select number of pilots who personally enjoy enormous benefits that their former collegues flying the line don't even come close to enjoying. I'm not impugning the character of each National officer, but let's face it - human nature is human nature. The problem we have is a structural problem and although we should leave it to another thread to discuss ALPA National's imperfections, I can at least offer the suggestion that the Association would be run very diiferently if the pilots running it only received their flight pay and nothing else.

Thank you very much. If you accept the premise that ALPA National will not change because of the structure, then you just made a very good case to change to something new. USAPA. Couldn't agree with you more. BTW. USAPA officers will only be allowed flight pay loss up to their monthly earnings. Not double or triple as some ALPA people work the "system".

I found your post to be very interesting. Once again, I think it boils down to a bad idea being generated by a group of select pilots who pretty much lost touch with what the profession means and how to defend it.

Once again I agree with you. See above.

I suspect a majority of the East pilots know this. AAA#6 and Traderjake are the majority, not the minority.

That is where you're wrong. However, It will still be up to each individual to cast a ballot. The campaign to get votes will be very interesting indeed.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

'AAA73Pilot'
Lets also not forget, that no one outside of the "Comittee" voted on it. Or was it the BOD that approved it? Either way, I didn't have the slightest say in any way over such a major policy change.
------------------------------------------------------
It was a BOD vote so every status representative in the Association voted on it just as they did to allow CAL back into ALPA. Duane Woerth had no say but he did do some arm twisting. Some are more vulnerable to that than others.

The notion of letting every member have a vote on all things that need a decision is interesting but will end up with the same criticisms as the concept of representative democracy. The more votes that come down the pike for the membership to have the less they will make themselves familiar with the issues and the less they will vote. That's just human nature. The less familiar the membership is with the issues the more powerful those holding office become in their role as advocates for or against a position. The criticisms of spin and secrecy for withholding needed information to make an informed decision will rise up just as they are now.

Whatever form the proposed union takes the same old problems and frustrations will follow. New day same old union.

Bob

 

[P51Pilot]

By the way how much do those stickers cost?

Not is much is a crappy contract will cost you. It's all your are ever going to see. Oh, yeah threaten a strike for better pay and see what happens. Management will laugh and say be my guest and if ALPA is stupid enough to expect solidarity, oh wait of course they would be that stupid. After all it will be your job, not the cush ALPA one at stake. Just remember when there are no obligations to "fair and equitable", it's each man or woman for himself and you will have no right to complain. i mean why should someone care what a "thief" or an accomplice has to say.

 

[EastUS]

That'd all be "Byegones" if the AWA guys had been hosed by DOH. Classic .

No sir. I assure you that it wouldn't have been any such case for me. I honestly believe that DOH is/was the only rational method for integrating work groups. Without 'standards" that amount to "well...the moon's in capricorn today, and an arbitrator saw his/her shadow upon awakening..so you/I/whomever gets the "senirotiy" that makes for utter chaos, and disunification of pilots throughout the nation's little airline "tribes".

I make no personal claims towards excessive "nobility", but; as utterly inconceivable as this concept may be for one who "thinks" like your postings would indicate: Not all of us live our lives based solely on "What's in it for me, right now?". My issues with Alpo didn't instantly, and magically arise over the Nic fiasco. A thought for future projections of values: What's "classic" for one might just be fully repugnant to another.

 

[EastUS]

I have total compassion for the first officer at US. Just because I don't agree with USAPA doesn't mean I don't understand their pain. Look I don't agree with DP most of the time, that doesn't mean I hate the guy! Please put this stuff in perspective.

Here's the deal. If you are an older FO (55+) under the current contract and want to play hardball by going with USAPA that's fine. But they are losing at least
$35-50K year by not getting a JC, plus there is no way USAPA can guarantee the Nic award being overturned. It's just another group that is mismanaging expectations.

"I have total compassion for the first officer at US. Just because I don't agree with USAPA doesn't mean I don't understand their pain." Yeah...right...Given your apparent time in grade..you qualify as among the group that cheerfully voted in a 5 year "B" scale for newhires in the past.

"But they are losing at least $35-50K year by not getting a JC," And...you KNOW this how?...Where are the "guarantees" you seem to demand that ANY actual contract will be signed off on by Tempe?...Let me guess = because they've "said so"? Puhleeaze. Mr Parker's on record saying that the benefits of full pilot group combining amount to approx 10 million, and that bringing the east up to the west rates represents over 100 million in added expense. You trust them to merrily sign off on a contract?...because they "say" that they will? The only viable reason I can see for them to actually do such would be to package this outfit for a sale/merger...at which time any contract basically becomes so much useless paper with value only as an historical document in any case.

The future's always unknown territory, and there are no "guarantees", nor can there ever be in any aspect of human life. One thing that I earnestly believe comes closest to a "guarantee" in this case is that Alpo will continue surrendering wholesale to airline managements, and that the once wonderfull profession of commercial flying will continue to deteriorate under their stewardship.

 

[EastUS]

'AAA73Pilot'
Whatever form the proposed union takes the same old problems and frustrations will follow. New day same old union.

I see....so..the only proper solution is to attempt nothing new, or different, wallow in despair, and continue to watch the decline of the profession?

 

[prechilill]

The future's always unkown territory, and there are no "guarantees", nor can there ever be in any aspect of human life. One thing that I earnestly believe comes closest to a "guarantee" in this case is that Alpo will continue surrendering wholesale to airline managements, and that the once wonderfull profession of commercial flying will continue to deteriorate under their stewardship.

So, you say the future is always unknown territory with no guarantees. Hmmm. Guess by your own tacit admission you understand why the west pilots will not buy into the east BS of "eventual inheritance" of a job after most of the east pilots retire. You wanted a short-term gain in your bidding opportunities at the expense of my group, didn't achieve that goal and now you appear to be in full blame mode of everyone for your failure. Thanks for your admission my friend of what we in the west suspected you understood all along- there are no guarantees in what tomorrow may bring.
If you and your small minority of angry individuals wish to characterize the west pilots as greedy thieves you are certainly entitled to do so. No matter how the seniority integration unfolded you would have your own opinion of what constitutes fairness, and again that is your right. However, your perceived injustice is not shared by the majority of the piloting profession and you have done little in coherently explaining your injustices with your endless stream of posts.

 

[AAA#6]

Not is much is a crappy contract will cost you. It's all your are ever going to see. Oh, yeah threaten a strike for better pay and see what happens. Management will laugh and say be my guest and if ALPA is stupid enough to expect solidarity, oh wait of course they would be that stupid. After all it will be your job, not the cush ALPA one at stake. Just remember when there are no obligations to "fair and equitable", it's each man or woman for himself and you will have no right to complain. i mean why should someone care what a "thief" or an accomplice has to say.

So while the AWA guys are suing USAPA over Nic and you also want to threaten a strike, the money comes from where?
You must like paying assessments, because you will be paying them year out.

 

[Piedmont1984]

AAA#6

Southwest was not always the bohemoth they are today and they did quite well with their in-house union. The challenge for USAPA will not be to convince AAA pilots of the need to replace ALPA, I think most of us in the East have already reached that conclusion, but to convince both East and West that no worthwhile change ever happened without some risk and uncertainty.

It is the fence sitters and the fearful, such as yourself - who hold to the mantra that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't - who need to be persuaded that the time for ALPA on this property is at an end.

 

[EastUS]

So, you say the future is always unknown territory with no guarantees. Hmmm. Guess by your own tacit admission you understand why the west pilots will not buy into the east BS of "eventual inheritance" of a job after most of the east pilots retire. You wanted a short-term gain in your bidding opportunities at the expense of my group, didn't achieve that goal and now you appear to be in full blame mode of everyone for your failure. Thanks for your admission my friend of what we in the west suspected you understood all along- there are no guarantees in what tomorrow may bring.
If you and your small minority of angry individuals wish to characterize the west pilots as greedy thieves you are certainly entitled to do so. No matter how the seniority integration unfolded you would have your own opinion of what constitutes fairness, and again that is your right. However, your perceived injustice is not shared by the majority of the piloting profession and you have done little in coherently explaining your injustices with your endless stream of posts.

"You wanted a short-term gain in your bidding opportunities at the expense of my group," Wouldn't apply to me in any case, but rant on at your pleasure. Youve some apparent difficulty even seeing that my thinking's that DOH is the only rational method for combining employee groups....period. You may wish to sometimes read what's actually posted. Same thought as per my notions on Alpo's "value" to the profession.

As for the subject of "short term gain" in bidding opportunities? You may wish to consider the fact that exactly that's happening out east as we speak..thanks to the Nic debacle, and the west's repeated issuance of what amounts to "It's over/binding arbitration/no further negotiations/no prisoners!" If you've tear filled eyes over that fact, perhaps you might finally realize that your side would have been better served with issuing a few less "Nyaah, Nyaahs!", and having more of an open mind towards actually fixing this mess via fences/whatever. Given your general postings...one can only assume that your current distress is "entirely the fault of the west MEC/Pilot group/etc"...since you apparently consider the whole east group to have been fully responsible for the few Alpo sorts that made this disaster for us all.

"Thanks for your admission my friend of what we in the west suspected you understood all along- there are no guarantees in what tomorrow may bring." I'll hope that's really no great epiphany for you, and, if it is? = Welcome to life on earth as part of the human race. I must note that the same thoughts apply to what "might have been" had this horrific "merger" not taken place = no one will ever know, and all the "expectations" out west, or east, had zero basis in reality, as has now been shown. All the more reason for some consistent basis for seniority integrations.