AAA ALPA Thread 10/12 to 10/18

[EastUS]

You do realise that the ALPA merger policy only applies when there are two pilot groups who are merging and both groups are ALPA, don't you? For a stapling to occur in that case, then it can only come at the hands of a professional arbitrator because when two ALPA pilot groups merge, they go to arbitration. Remove yourself from ALPA and merge with a much larger pilot group and then see what happens. You think you were mistreated by an arbitrator, well just wait and see what would happen when the larger pilot group cuts a deal with your CEO. Remember how "generous" the APA was with a different union? Suddenly an arbitrator wouldn't look so bad.

I fully trust Alpo to act solely in it's own best interests..and the line pilots be damned.

I'll note that I find Alpo "merger policy" to be a total joke, a rudderless ship, and splintered yardstick for any predictions regarding future mergers.

Consider the following possibility = LCC actually ends up as the acquiring entity, and isn't Alpa at the time of purchase. Would you guys/gals out west feel better or worse working to integrate a larger list of Alpa guys into the picture then? Don't mistake that question for any desire for other than DOH on my part.

Do you assume a virginal innocence and total lack of corruption within Alpo? Is there ANY reason to imagine that backdoor business isn't routinely conducted with managements by them? Why/how would anyone assume that any future merger would be free of such by having both "sides" Alpo?

 

[AAA#6]

Whew!...That's a great point, in that the Alpo "merger policy" will/would definately "protect" us all I'd honestly guess that a better chance for list stapling/tossing all AWA/US under the bus, would come from Alpo than anywhere else.

Yeah I understand the AAA bitterness to ALPA, you don't think the AWA side is bitter with them also. It isn't like they acted promptly defending a decision that was handed down
by the arbitrator. They are playing games in there self interest, every pilot (AAA and AWA knows that). But if you are at least somewhat educated on the ALPA merger policy, you realise there is more security in that than no merger policy at all. Do you really want to be stapled to 5000 UAL pilots, and have your contract delayed even more. Unless of course you are a burn the house down kinda guy. If that is the case this is all wind in your ears.

 

[P51Pilot]

To the AAA guys,

I understand the feelings, the history, and Nic award etc. Why the raw emotion? Do you always dictate your future on raw emotion? How can USAPA really serve us (AAA and AWA) better? What is it they offer? Show us the benefits? How is it more economical? How is it more secure when all our competitors are pretty much ALPA? How will this union work if 1900 pilots out West aren't part of the effort? It's pure madness and nothing more than hot emotions running.

We all know USAPA is nothing more than a transparent attempt to try and change the Nic award, there is absolutely no game plan as to what else they offer.

Gordon Bethune once said he loves to negotiate with airline pilots because they are so emotional, instead of being rational and business like. That is the problem with most pilots (not just AAA), instead of having some business sense, they get tied up in "what is owed to them", " I have been here 30 years", " We built this airline". CEO's don't care, they only care about the bottom line. If you don't do the job, they will get someone else. If you threaten to quit, they will show you the door. In fact they'd love to get a 10-20 year employee off the payscale. Life will go on with or without you. So while it feels good to run on emotion (I agree, it's easy to do), we all need to recognize that most bad decisions are based of nothing else than raw emotion. We as pilots must think of ourselves like a business, like a vendor that deserves to get market rates and terms. T

The AAA guys deserve parity and would most likely get it pretty soon if we negotiate a joint contract, but with USAPA it won't happen. Changing over to USAPA is equivilent to the blue screen of death on windows, get ready to reboot all the time. It's a bad program not thought out. A virus!

If say USAPA were to get voted in (which I don't think it will) here is what going to happen:

1. Seniority Award being will not be overturned. It can't, because it is a binding agreement between two parties (AAA pilots and AWA pilots).
Doug won't do anything, because the first letter written by him and Lakefield talked of no employee groups getting a windfall over another. ALPA merger policy was followed and the AAA union acknowledge no wrong doing, it was a fair process, and that Nic was fair and sane. So USAPA will not get any help from Doug, and would most likely get a lawsuit from the West if they go after the Nic award.

2. The AAA guys will have to pay assessments for mounting lawsuits. While there is a lawsuit over the seniority award, West will probably try to get an injuction on a changeover based on the transparency of the USAPA movement.

3. AWA pilots won't pay USAPA dues, and if they were to be ordered by the court to pay, many would press for hardship and reduced payments. Thus stressing the finances of USAPA. AWA pilots won't pull their effort, because USAPA was not created for their interest.

4. Nobody gets a new contract for probably 4-5 years. Everyone is in limbo, and we will be a beautiful takeover target since we have no solid representation. Fact is if US mergers with another ALPA carrier, we all go to the bottom, and still live in limbo with crappy contracts. Yes guys, other than AAL, everyone else is ALPA, and WE (AWA and AAA) will have NO MERGER POLICY to back us up! And if this should happen, the AAA guys would be the ones to blame, because decisions were made on emotion instead of the real interests at heart.

Even though the AWA guys are the minority, they are still a force to be reckoned with. If you are going to have another union it would be wise to have 1900 on your side. Otherwise USAPA will fail. Anything USAPA tries to do will be met with....what is it.................oh yeah.............EMOTION!, from the AWA side.

So you see USAPA will never work. Because it's movement is bent on the Nic award and that's it. There is no betterment for the AWA pilot. There is no UNITY in the equation.

It's time to be rational...not emotional, and really think about securing your FUTURE interests. If you are in your 50's and an AAA pilot, I hope you think twice.

I'm sorry if you don't find theft emotional. I am sure you would help the robber carry the TV out and give him the keys to the car as long as it was your neighbors. If you want pilots to look at this from a purely Capitalistic point of view, then all bets are off and it's dog eat dog. It seems to be what ALPA wants anyway. Good luck with unity and all that if ALPA wins. If ALPA is ever stupid enough to set up a picket line, you probably see quite a few set emotion aside. They will probably even smile at you on the picket line, that is while they walk past you, in a purely rational, all business sense to reclaim what was stolen.

I say this tongue in cheek, because the Gods honest truth is ALPA will never have any leverage, because their biggest bluff will be informational picketing.(management must be shaking in their boots) Heck of a thing to have a couple 10000+ hour pilots, who revile everything ALPA stands for out there and not be able to predict their behavior. ALPA would be scared $hitless of the consequences of carrying the bluff though, so you know airline management will take advantage of ALPA's weakness.

You clearly have a their is "mine" and "yours" philosphy. Just remember, that as people elect to try and get theirs, and anything goes in the "business world", you will have given up your moral credibility to belly ache about it.

 

[EastUS]

Yeah I understand the AAA bitterness to ALPA, you don't think the AWA side is bitter with them also. It isn't like they acted promptly defending a decision that was handed down
by the arbitrator. They are playing games in there self interest, every pilot (AAA and AWA knows that). But if you are at least somewhat educated on the ALPA merger policy, you realise there is more security in that than no merger policy at all. Do you really want to be stapled to 5000 UAL pilots, and have your contract delayed even more. Unless of course you are a burn the house down kinda guy. If that is the case this is all wind in your ears.

"Do you really want to be stapled to 5000 UAL pilots," If a UAL marriage were to occur, with UAL the acquiring party...what might make you think that said outcome's not a perfectly viable possibility via Alpo? The "Association" would do whatever suits their purposes. What we're seeing transpire around here hardly fills me with any hope that we (US/AWA) wouldn't be fed to the dogs in an Alpo heartbeat. We're currently witnessing Alpo Notional striving to do exactly that with one of the most senior groups of dues payers.

I'll offer the thought again: What if LCC becomes the buyer? Would there truly be ANY predictable advantage to the US/AWA pilot group to have Alpo tend to our fates against a larger group, versus having the split unions scenario?

On a day to day basis....do also consider all that the "Association" has done "for" us over the years. Dunno 'bout you..but I'm still just a bit miffed over them tossing out over a million dollars in retirement that was stolen from me without ANY vote/input/etc from me...aren't you? Now?...A buncha Alpo Notionals are working to take over the contract/seniority issue around campus here, import "foreign" airlines' pilots to do the thinking for us..and, without any input from the line pilots here, once again seek to force what's "best for Alpo" on everyone. Personally? : I'm a little bit past tired of this kind of BS. Alpa National as a negotiator for our futures..Aren't they the very same guys who couldn't even stand up to their secretarial staff not long ago?...said staff now making far more money than an average line FO? This is period of record profits. Why aren't record wages and benefits being sought, nay...DEMANDED? Do you really expect anything "good" from that outfit?

 

[Best_Guess]

Yeah I understand the AAA bitterness to ALPA, you don't think the AWA side is bitter with them also. It isn't like they acted promptly defending a decision that was handed down
by the arbitrator. They are playing games in there self interest, every pilot (AAA and AWA knows that). But if you are at least somewhat educated on the ALPA merger policy, you realise there is more security in that than no merger policy at all. Do you really want to be stapled to 5000 UAL pilots, and have your contract delayed even more. Unless of course you are a burn the house down kinda guy. If that is the case this is all wind in your ears.

AAA#6

Have you been to the USAPA web site yet? Your points are all addressed on the public side of the site.

You say you speak from reason as opposed to emotion. I disagree. It is possible that you are not seriously effected by the Nic award either because you are senior, or a short timer, or AWA. Maybe emotionally you are too invested in your opinion to have it reasonably challenged at the USAPA site.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If a UAL marriage were to occur, with UAL the acquiring party...what might make you think that said outcome's not a perfectly viable possibility via Alpo? The "Association" would do whatever suits their purposes. What we're seeing transpire around here hardly fills me with any hope that we (US/AWA) wouldn't be fed to the dogs in an Alpo heartbeat.

Although I don't doubt for a second that ALPA National's only concern is what is best for ALPA National, and although I don't doubt for a second that what's best for National would largely align with UAL's interests, where your theory falls apart is that the substantive portion of the seniority determination would be completely removed from ALPA's hands thanks to the merger policy. In effect, there isn't any way ALPA could hose us unless they somehow paid off the arbitrator or something else way beyond the bounds of being legal. Clearly, that won't happen. The whole purpose of having a merger policy that speaks only to the process to be followed is to keep ALPA as far away from any colorable claim by one of the participants that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation. Coincidentally, the removal of ALPA from any sunstantive determination of seniority most likely benefits an underdog participant. I can't think of any potential merger where LCC pilots would be anything but an underdog. Therefore if something goes down, I'd far prefer to be under the ALPA merger policy because it absolutely has to go to a third party arbitrator. I'd far prefer to rely on Nicolau, Bloch, or whomever rather than rely on the benevolence of an opposing MEC or the company. With USAPA, all bets are off and I can't think of anything which would prevent ALPA from aggressively representing the ALPA participant in an ALPA-nonALPA merger. Nothing in the RLA mandates that a seniority integration has to go to arbitration. Nothing in the RLA prohibits the company from dictating a seniority result ala AMR-TWA unless, of course, a merger policy applied to both pilot groups. Since ALPA represents every potential merger partner (AMR won't merge with anybody), there's no question that LCC pilots are much better off belonging to ALPA. Believe me, I never thought I'd be better off with ALPA but the circumstances are such that the unexpected is happening.

 

[Piedmont1984]

AAA#6

Your statements concerning USAPA are uninformed, try going to their website. Your attitude, if you are AAA, toward the fellow first officers you have been working with for decades seems to be "I got mine, now pull the ladder up".

 

[EastUS]

the substantive portion of the seniority determination would be completely removed from ALPA's hands thanks to the merger policy. In effect, there isn't any way ALPA could hose us unless they somehow paid off the arbitrator or something else way beyond the bounds of being legal. Clearly, that won't happen.

How would any part of this not be in Alpo's hands?

1) Alpo reps fuss and fidget to no effect.

2) An arbitrator is picked....by these same clowns.

3) None of us are allowed to vote on any portion of the process.

"unless they somehow paid off the arbitrator or something else way beyond the bounds of being legal. Clearly, that won't happen." Sigh...if you say so I've obviously far less faith in the process. Not meaning to be "cute" there. I've observed that human beings under great stress, or tremendous temptation can surprise one at times.

PS: I believe that I understand your reasoning, and do not fully fault it by any means. We differ greatly on what expectable good yield's attainable via Alpo.

 

[AAA#6]

I'm sorry if you don't find theft emotional. I am sure you would help the robber carry the TV out and give him the keys to the car as long as it was your neighbors. If you want pilots to look at this from a purely Capitalistic point of view, then all bets are off and it's dog eat dog. It seems to be what ALPA wants anyway. Good luck with unity and all that if ALPA wins. If ALPA is ever stupid enough to set up a picket line, you probably see quite a few set emotion aside. They will probably even smile at you on the picket line, that is while they walk past you, in a purely rational, all business sense to reclaim what was stolen.

I say this tongue in cheek, because the Gods honest truth is ALPA will never have any leverage, because their biggest bluff will be informational picketing.(management must be shaking in their boots) Heck of a thing to have a couple 10000+ hour pilots, who revile everything ALPA stands for out there and not be able to predict their behavior. ALPA would be scared $hitless of the consequences of carrying the bluff though, so you know airline management will take advantage of ALPA's weakness.

You clearly have a their is "mine" and "yours" philosphy. Just remember, that as people elect to try and get theirs, and anything goes in the "business world", you will have given up your moral credibility to belly ache about it.

You are the typical. Nobody cares how much hours you have. Look at the regionals right now.
Also I am no ALPA boy. But what is the better deal to be had. It's easy for USAPA to print stickers, make a website, and make CLAIMS. But where are the GUARANTEES.
How many ALPA carriers have quit ALPA, only to come back to ALPA? Why? Because the pilot group couldn't fund it. USAPA will never have deep pockets like ALPA. As much as you hate them, USAPA can never match the power they have.

How is USAPA gonna fund the medical examiner, loss of licesne, legal help, staffing of the office, legal counsel, rent, ...etc..etc.
Your kidding me if you think that the minute we go into a merger that we won't be broke, why? Because ALPA has deep pockets and probably a little vengence towards USAPA.

If some of the USAPA guys stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, maybe I'd listen!!

 

[AAA#6]

AAA#6

Your statements concerning USAPA are uninformed, try going to their website. Your attitude, if you are AAA, toward the fellow first officers you have been working with for decades seems to be "I got mine, now pull the ladder up".

I have total compassion for the first officer at US. Just because I don't agree with USAPA doesn't mean I don't understand their pain. Look I don't agree with DP most of the time, that doesn't mean I hate the guy! Please put this stuff in perspective.

I have been furloughed twice (not by US), and neither ALPA and the other union did anything for me. So there is no ALPA love here.

Here's the deal. If you are an older FO (55+) under the current contract and want to play hardball by going with USAPA that's fine. But they are losing at least
$35-50K year by not getting a JC, plus there is no way USAPA can guarantee the Nic award being overturned. It's just another group that is mismanaging expectations.

Again, someone answer this seriously. No emotion please (otherwise your just another grunt with a stick up your A**).

HOW DOES A UNION WORK IF HALF OF THE CULTURE (AWA) IS NOT INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS? You all know that USAPA is about AAA not AWA. If you don't get the AWA guys on board, the union is doomed. All there will be is civil war. That's my take....but seriously I'd like to hear a rational answer to that question.

 

[AAA#6]

Although I don't doubt for a second that ALPA National's only concern is what is best for ALPA National, and although I don't doubt for a second that what's best for National would largely align with UAL's interests, where your theory falls apart is that the substantive portion of the seniority determination would be completely removed from ALPA's hands thanks to the merger policy. In effect, there isn't any way ALPA could hose us unless they somehow paid off the arbitrator or something else way beyond the bounds of being legal. Clearly, that won't happen. The whole purpose of having a merger policy that speaks only to the process to be followed is to keep ALPA as far away from any colorable claim by one of the participants that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation. Coincidentally, the removal of ALPA from any sunstantive determination of seniority most likely benefits an underdog participant. I can't think of any potential merger where LCC pilots would be anything but an underdog. Therefore if something goes down, I'd far prefer to be under the ALPA merger policy because it absolutely has to go to a third party arbitrator. I'd far prefer to rely on Nicolau, Bloch, or whomever rather than rely on the benevolence of an opposing MEC or the company. With USAPA, all bets are off and I can't think of anything which would prevent ALPA from aggressively representing the ALPA participant in an ALPA-nonALPA merger. Nothing in the RLA mandates that a seniority integration has to go to arbitration. Nothing in the RLA prohibits the company from dictating a seniority result ala AMR-TWA unless, of course, a merger policy applied to both pilot groups. Since ALPA represents every potential merger partner (AMR won't merge with anybody), there's no question that LCC pilots are much better off belonging to ALPA. Believe me, I never thought I'd be better off with ALPA but the circumstances are such that the unexpected is happening.

ALPA has to follow the policy that is in place. If they could do what suited them, they would have overturned the Nic award long ago to please AAA, and tell AWA "sorry guys but we can't afford a decertification". United, Delta, etc all have to follow the same rules. The difference is that Delta, United, NW etc will most likely be better prepared in their presentations to an arbitrator versus US. A seniority battle can only be lost by the leaders that didn't execute properly. You need to thank Jack for that! The fact is that Jack tried to hit a home run,and instead hit a foul ball. He was told he could have another try, instead of trying to get on base....he went for the home run....and struck out!

 

[AAA#6]

ALPA has to follow the policy that is in place. If they could do what suited them, they would have overturned the Nic award long ago to please AAA, and tell AWA "sorry guys but we can't afford a decertification". United, Delta, etc all have to follow the same rules. The difference is that Delta, United, NW etc will most likely be better prepared in their presentations to an arbitrator versus US. A seniority battle can only be lost by the leaders that didn't execute properly. You need to thank Jack for that! The fact is that Jack tried to hit a home run,and instead hit a foul ball. He was told he could have another try, instead of trying to get on base....he went for the home run....and struck out!

Sorry aqua i copied your post in error

 

[aquagreen73s]

No worries. Your post is dead on. I think ALPA did make a run on the AWA pilots by pressuring their minions in AWA MEC positions to get Ken Stravers fired on the eve before the arbitration started. That would have been a disaster for AWA pilots and National knew it. Thankfully, the minions were defeated and Stravers did a remarkable job. A lot of the AWA pilots feared the worst because there's no doubt who the underdog was and who had Herndon's ear. That fact is probably one of the reasons that Jack and Co. were way overconfident and it was this overconfidence that ultimately made its way to the arbitrator via the East NC. Even after the Award, however, AAA still enjoys a substantial influence over National as compared to the West - I seriously doubt that AWA could have gotten a Rice Committee appointed. No, Herndon would have just told the West that the policy is the policy and to go pack sand.

 

[AAA#6]

P51 says "I'm sorry if you don't find theft emotional."
Who did the theft? Surely not AWA pilots. They went to arbitration and were awarded what they fought for.

What is it you expect them to do? Be the nice dumb guy and say," Oh geez guys sorry your angry, we'll make it up to and put up some fences up that screw us, were not obligated but we'll be the big guy you want us to be" What fairy tale does that come from!

Face it the AWA guys have NO OBLIGATION to make the AAA guys happy, so this theft crap is getting old. Most of the AAA pilots took the bait Jack put out and viola!, suprise!, we been had! surely not! oh my god! this can't be happening! Thank Jack and gang. AWA didn't do a thing.

AAA ALPA (not National) is responsible for the mess, and I notice that Stephan doesn't even fight against USAPA, which is his job to do as an ALPA officer! Funny isn't it. He may just be getting the soft landing he is looking for (nice exit strategy), and the AAA gang is gonna let him off the hook.

Even though these are my feeling, I am not happy with ALPA, but ALPA is stll the better choice for money and security reasons.

USAPA will be the same chewed meat of people that make great speeches but can't execute or make guarnatees. Sorry I don't buy it.

By the way how much do those stickers cost?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Please,

Let's not forget that the AAA pilots wrote a good portion of the current ALPA merger policy. No one at national did that. I've seen a lot of statements from both sides that ALPA will look out for it's best interests. What everyone forgets is that ALPA is the group of pilots that control ALPA. It isn't national. It is UAL and DAL and NWA. And for a while it was AAA. What the east is complaining about is what they themselves wrote into national policy and pushed through the BOD. The national officers have no choice but to follow that policy. It doesn't matter if it is fair or not or that one side wins or loses. It doesn't matter. Most of the arguments presented by the east are understandable but irrelevant and indefensible. They made sure of that by their hand in helping to write the current policy that is being implemented.

On another thread I wrote of the challenge to the merger policy by the regionals about 10 years ago. A special national merger committee was appointed to address those concerns and that committee was chaired by an AAA Boston captain. The policy was tweaked and reinforced and clarified under AAA direction. And that policy is the one we have today. The very reason AAA wants to defect is because of what they themselves wrote into national policy by taking these kinds of issues out of the hands of pilots and putting them into an impartial process.

Seems awfully ironic and funny to me at least. I don't really care what happens. This is my first merger and having heard the stories from past mergers I continue to say that if this is as bad as it gets then I really don't see what everyone is so upset about. Seems kind of mild mannered to me overall. I was expecting something really bad. I haven't seen bad yet.

Bob