AA employees get 4% raises

[Bob Owens]

You're forgetting that it's not just 4%. That 4% is in addition to matching the top out rate at Delta and another 3% for keeping Profit sharing out of the formula. Not factoring in ALL of the middle items you guys have or have lost do you know what Delta currently tops out at? How much higher is that than you currently and then add 7% on top of that.
 

You're forgetting about our bottom of the Industry Holiday pay, vacation pay, sick pay, shift differential, medical etc etc. that adds up to a lot more than 7%. 
 
Besides when did Parker say he was willing to pay everyone 7% more than Delta? Is that 7% in the aggregate or just wages? 
 
 

And they don't need the advantage anymore after shedding debt and obligations in Bankruptcy and are poised with lower oil prices continuing on the horizon to rake in tons of profit.
 

Profits that we wont be getting a share of. You just contradicted the point you appeared to be making. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 I really believe that Parker is out for blood on Anderson after they dismissed his overture and mocked him all those years ago. This is personal almost as much as it's about business.

He also by doling out all these raises and citing Delta constantly may help to achieve the one thing they hate the most. ORGANIZE Delta Airlines. He's far from stupid.

I agree, because what he is doing is 'dangling a carrot' and hoping to start a stampede where we end up with even longer term concessions in exchange for a few pennies more now. Delta will end up having to match whatever we get and United get to keep Unions off the property and have to pay Profit Sharing on top.  Parker gets even more for his shareholders at our expense. We will at best see a year with pay rates higher than UAL and Delta and fours year at the bottom again as our wages are matched but we are excluded from Profit sharing like UA, DL and even WN get. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
If it takes years, that will be our collective decision. Now wouldn't it.

No that will be the Internationals and the NMB's decision.
 
 
Before you go on about 2007 to 2012 the reason we were stuck in 5 years of negotiations was because the International refused to push for a release even after a failed TA. Can you show me an example in the airlines where during Sect 6 negotiations after several years of mediated talks and a rejected TA the NMB did not release the parties when requested? 

 

[WeAAsles]

Sad when people who claim to be pro-union don't consider employees to be Assets and instead look at them as liabilities. 
 
 
Sad when so called pro-union people agree and repeat the companies lies that if they choose to run their business by controlling the quality of their product in-house they should get a discount for volume from the workers who perform that work and deliver that quality.
 
What the figures you cite lack is specificity, counted among the number of mechanics are positions that the TWU helped AA put in place that are not staffed by A&Ps or similarly High Skilled workers but rather workers that are paid much less than even many of the Domestic MRO's.  
 
For a long time we have seen Overspeed , NYer and other pretenders cite this same lie now we see FSC's citing it as well. The fact is that if we look at line operations we are likely understaffed compared to our peers in the industry, even WN and UPS. Donnelley tried to spin out the UPS numbers by including airacraft that never operated in the US and were subcontractors around the world that UPS hired. I contacted the Pilots Union to get an accurate number of actual UPS Aircraft and the ratio was much closer than the numbers that Donnelly spun out. (Donnelley now works for WN management, so basically he stopped working for AA management and now works for WN management). 
 
Another thing that you guys leave out is quality. Sure Delta, WN and United outsource a lot of Overhaul, and on paper save money, but what MIT misses is the rework and associated costs that are driving up OT and headcount in the line at those carriers, UAL built a new line maintenance Hangar in EWR to help handle the extra work. As Overspeed finally admitted there are no perfect comparators, AA still had higher maintenance costs because AA operated an older fleet, but on the flip side their cost for Aircraft would be lower since they weren't paying off new aircraft. 
 
Our in house Overhaul put out a quality product which meant less breakdowns when they returned to service. 
 
So you come here and say that quality means nothing, and insinuate that if we want the pay of other carriers we should shed headcount, in other words you are saying we are a liability to the company and should discount our labor. What kind of Union man would say that? 
 
You should be ashamed of yourself. 

Alright Bob I don't know all the particulars of your group and if I was to only go on all the things you've been saying on these forums pages then I would have to agree that yes you guys have been hosed for X number of years?

The problem is Bob is that you wouldn't be considered an expert if you were in negotiations and pulled up your personal charts, graphs and statistics. You'd probably do best to hire your own MIT people to do the research on your behalf to go in after the company during the JCBA negotiations? The company is not going to take your word on it that you are not on the same playing field as the rest of your counterparts in the industry. (And they're not going to count UPS as much as you'd like them too and no matter how many times you say they should)

You keep quoting that it was the last administration in the TWU that screwed you guys. Well you have a new team now that has said they want you to be more autonomous? I think they're saying that they're going to leave you to your own devices. You have new management in AA that maybe will hear you out and compensate you to the level (somewhat) that you feel you should be at?

I should be ashamed of myself? C'mon give me a break. I have friends who are Line Mechanics. Every one of them has said that they think TUL should be burned to the ground and the earth scorched. I actually understand their point of view. Don't agree with them completely but I do understand their point of view. They've also told me that most in their group think I'm overpaid. I've asked them what they think and they've said no, but deep down I know what they think. You yourself haven't done too well hiding your disdain for TUL in many of your postings. You don't come right out and say how you feel but you hint about it quite often. Thankfully I can't recall you hinting about my pay that I remember.

You don't like what I wrote but I'm just repeating like a conduit what your own members say to me multiple times. Too bad most won't say it on here publicly. The rare one's that will I commend them for their honesty at least. Well you guys in Line maintenance may have the numbers now to get what you want so we'll see what happens? I said it yesterday though, I'd rather be disconnected from your negotiations. I don't want us to be held back having to wait for you guys to get a JCBA if you're going to dig in your heels and pull out the guns and knives? And I don't want you to be held back if it wound up being our group who was the surprise heel diggers? 

Sorry if being honest bothers you.

 

[WeAAsles]

So you have nothing against parker using Union Busting tactics? Some Unions get it while others don't? When did Parker announce that this was coming out? Before or after the Unions agreed to support the merger? There is a concept called "notice", that you don't set something in place after the fact and penalize people for something that occurred before notice was given. Parker stated that this was for all employees starting Jan 2015, then stated that only Union employees with a JCBA would get it. Its disingenuous for him to claim he is being fair because he knew when he made this decision that it would be impossible for many Unionized workers to meet that criteria. In our case we have the NMB which has been sitting on this decision for an unheard of long time. 
 
So if the company walked into your break room and picked out two coworkers and decided to pay them more would you be OK with that? If not then why not? 

Sure and why are the NMB sitting on this for so long? Maybe because a certain group of individuals don't want it and have wrote every letter and every factoid they can find to fight against it becoming a reality?

I never said that I agree with Parker's strategy to get us to the table to move things along but as a Chess player I can admire and understand the move.

Try viewing things from outside the box once in awhile Bob.

 

[WeAAsles]

You're forgetting about our bottom of the Industry Holiday pay, vacation pay, sick pay, shift differential, medical etc etc. that adds up to a lot more than 7%. 
 
Besides when did Parker say he was willing to pay everyone 7% more than Delta? Is that 7% in the aggregate or just wages? 
 
 
Profits that we wont be getting a share of. You just contradicted the point you appeared to be making. 

Absolutely NOT forgetting about all of those items and have even been reminding certain individuals that they need to read not only the two contracts in at AA and US but items that are in the UAL and SWA contracts as well. Also reminding them of items that we used to have before 03 like Penalty Hours, Job Protection, Moving Allowance and hell even the $3.00 OT meal allowance.

I personally could care less about the PS if they give me a "decent" exchange for it. I want the company to shore up the foundation and pay down a bunch of that debt and reward the shareholders (of which I am one of them also) I have about 12 years left (give or take) after they get their finances in better shape after a few years maybe then I'd like to see us revisit it or see them in such a strong financial position that I can get GREAT gains for my remaining few years.

You probably don't see it that way because you're almost out the door? Understandable.

 

[WeAAsles]

I agree, because what he is doing is 'dangling a carrot' and hoping to start a stampede where we end up with even longer term concessions in exchange for a few pennies more now. Delta will end up having to match whatever we get and United get to keep Unions off the property and have to pay Profit Sharing on top.  Parker gets even more for his shareholders at our expense. We will at best see a year with pay rates higher than UAL and Delta and fours year at the bottom again as our wages are matched but we are excluded from Profit sharing like UA, DL and even WN get. 

And yet again we are not in Section 6 negotiations and if we put up a thick stone wall at best the company can say "Alrighty then, see you in 2018"

Do you really want to be in the same position that many Unions at UAL find themselves in right now or do you want to grab some of the gravy while we have a chance?

I'm not saying that you should lay down your sword Bob but maybe you should at least think about putting it back in the scabbard for now?

 

[NYer]

No Stores did. And the only Stores thats better paid is WN.
 
They went into negotiations with seven stores clerks, I sat with them as much as I could during Regular negotiations but they didn't have the complications we had in Maintenance, they never split the stores into three groups and played one against the other and they didn't have Fleet Service sitting in and voting which ever way Videtich told them to on the content of the Maintenance contract. 

 
I'll add Stores to the list of the conspirators that have brought down maintenance.
 
I'll give you one thing, and I guess most haven't figure it out (to your credit). All you have to do is promise the path to get to the promised land, that gets you elected...then when it can't be delivered you can just blame everyone else for that failure. That's pretty neat.
 
So we add Stores to Fleet, Fleet Presidents, the lawyers, financial experts, number crunchers, the ATD, the International, TUL, the NMB, Crandall, Carty, Arpey, Horton, Parker, Sharon Levine, Mark Richards, John Donnelly, Videtich, Little, Gless, Drummond, Rosen, Judge Lane, Mediator Kane, Mediator Brown....I'm sure I'm missing some. =/

 

[bigjets]

Locusts, floods, his dog ate his proposal, solar flare......it wasn't bobs fault!!!!!!


As the FAs enjoy their huge raise next month, what advice does bob have for them. What would trice have LG do now that they are paid more then other FAs ?

Anyway thanks for 4% DP, hopefully you won't forget about mechs.

 

[WeAAsles]

Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Both Bushes, Clinton, Obama, Michael Milken, Bernie Madoff, The guy that sold Bob his first Tool Belt and whoever produced the movie Ishtar? God was that bad.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
I'll add Stores to the list of the conspirators that have brought down maintenance.
 
I'll give you one thing, and I guess most haven't figure it out (to your credit). All you have to do is promise the path to get to the promised land, that gets you elected...then when it can't be delivered you can just blame everyone else for that failure. That's pretty neat.
 
So we add Stores to Fleet, Fleet Presidents, the lawyers, financial experts, number crunchers, the ATD, the International, TUL, the NMB, Crandall, Carty, Arpey, Horton, Parker, Sharon Levine, Mark Richards, John Donnelly, Videtich, Little, Gless, Drummond, Rosen, Judge Lane, Mediator Kane, Mediator Brown....I'm sure I'm missing some. =/

Spin away. I've never blamed groups that do better for our demise, I blame people like you who say we have to accept less while other groups make gains. I'm proud of the Stores guys and glad they let me be a part of it all. 
 
Promises? When have you ever seen me promise anything? I observe and report what I see and what I believe. I offer opinions on a path I believe we should take but I have never made promises. Look at you, hiding behind an alias like the coward you are making accusations, twisting facts and simply making things up. Desperately hoping that something sticks.
 
You can add anyone you like to your lists. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Both Bushes, Clinton, Obama, Michael Milken, Bernie Madoff, The guy that sold Bob his first Tool Belt and whoever produced the movie Ishtar? God was that bad.

More and more like them every day ,,,,,. now we know why you hide behind a very suitable alias as well. 

 

[NYer]

No that will be the Internationals and the NMB's decision.
 
 
Before you go on about 2007 to 2012 the reason we were stuck in 5 years of negotiations was because the International refused to push for a release even after a failed TA. Can you show me an example in the airlines where during Sect 6 negotiations after several years of mediated talks and a rejected TA the NMB did not release the parties when requested? 

 
Let's make that easier. Show us where they have and in order for you not to strain yourself in research let's pick a contemporary period such 2000 and beyond and passenger airlines that fly, for the most part, into primary airports.

 

[NYer]

Spin away. I've never blamed groups that do better for our demise, I blame people like you who say we have to accept less while other groups make gains. I'm proud of the Stores guys and glad they let me be a part of it all. 
 
Promises? When have you ever seen me promise anything? I observe and report what I see and what I believe. I offer opinions on a path I believe we should take but I have never made promises. Look at you, hiding behind an alias like the coward you are making accusations, twisting facts and simply making things up. Desperately hoping that something sticks.
 
You can add anyone you like to your lists. 

 
Yes, you have blame other groups. And I haven't uttered the words, "let's accept less," but facts are not really a strong point in your conversations. Your goal is a methodical attempt to place words into the mouths of others in order to slowly give the appearance of the use. Nice try, though.
 
If you want to make accusations of "twisting facts" and "simply making things up," you should probably use example to make your point. I suspect that is more difficult to do, so the hope is just saying it will influence those that read these pages. OK. At least you can try, right.
 
Your little quip about those "hide under an alias" is a "coward" may not go over well with most of the others on these pages that choose to use an "alias" and an avatar.

 

[WeAAsles]

More and more like them every day ,,,,,. now we know why you hide behind a very suitable alias as well. 

Lighten up Francis, it was a joke. Jeez man some of you guys on these pages have zero sense of humor. Hope you weren't all like that when you were kids too?

And I told you my name but again you like to pretend you didn't see it. That was funny. You call me out and two minutes later I post my name to take your ammo away from you and I get "Oh I never noticed" LMAO.

Most people know who I am on here Bob. Do you need me to say my name yet again so you can conveniently ignore it? :blink: