Pilots propose a 30.5% pay raise on May 1, 2008

[eolesen]

Geisha dreams? Please. I'd be satisfied with simply getting a second pass of the bread basket or a drink refill after the meal service without having to walk into the galley to ask for one...

BA, AF, and any number of other European carriers have their fair share of senior mamas as well, and the service is almost always a few notches above AA's. Again, it's the service mentality vs. "we're here for your safety" and serving drinks is just something we do to pass the time between the demo and reading Cosmo or People...


Sorry, ILS, but if you really think you'll see snap backs at those levels, just look at what happened when UAL caved in after the Summer of Love and gave ALPA their pre-ESOP snapback and then some. Perhaps AA won't be filing for bankruptcy quite as quickly as UAL did, but expecting management to write checks that will wind up bouncing is foolhardy at best.

You're still better off going after stock, which is how the long-time LUV and JBLU employees have made their paper fortunes. The only real impact with giving employees options is potential dilution of the common stock, but there can be a tremendous upside if you hold onto it.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

The APA has 'loaned' this company close to 700 million dollars a year since 2003. The 30.5% figure doesn't even come close to an increase in salary, adjusted for inflation. The 30.5% isn't a raise, it's the old payscales adjusted for the CPI.

Every title group feels the same

Now it will be a cut throat cat fight to see who can get the most out of the company and who will get the left over scraps.

:angry:

 

[Hopeful]

Every title group feels the same

Now it will be a cut throat cat fight to see who can get the most out of the company and who will get the left over scraps.

:angry:

And since the pilots contract comes first.....?

 

[MiAAmi]

Geisha dreams? Please. I'd be satisfied with simply getting a second pass of the bread basket or a drink refill after the meal service without having to walk into the galley to ask for one...

BA, AF, and any number of other European carriers have their fair share of senior mamas as well, and the service is almost always a few notches above AA's. Again, it's the service mentality vs. "we're here for your safety" and serving drinks is just something we do to pass the time between the demo and reading Cosmo or People...

I have to agree. Although there are lots of people that I work with that care about great service, many f/a's can't wait to head to that last row of seats they cleared pax out of to watch the movie or get back to their people magazine. I hate to say it but check rides may not be such a bad idea.

 

[AAStew]

I have to agree. Although there are lots of people that I work with that care about great service, many f/a's can't wait to head to that last row of seats they cleared pax out of to watch the movie or get back to their people magazine. I hate to say it but check rides may not be such a bad idea.

I seriously do not know what flights you are flying. Working business and first we keep offering bread wine etc...You won't see us in the back row, in fact we haven't a clear back row in almost a year!
And isn't that the flight attendant mentality, let's have checkrides!! Why not encourage your fellow workers to get off their ass if that is what they are doing? This is why the company treats us as children, because we can't govern ourselves as adults.

 

[mjk]

How many pages is this thread gonna go before we stop talking about flight attendant's figures and work habits?

Pilots are just high balling and negotiating thru the media, as if Joe Six-pack is gonna feel sorry for them.

 

[Mach85ER]

How many pages is this thread gonna go before we stop talking about flight attendant's figures and work habits?

Pilots are just high balling and negotiating thru the media, as if Joe Six-pack is gonna feel sorry for them.

High balling?

30.5 is low ball. In fact, with APA's statement of offsetting bonus and pay raises with productivity, the AA negotiators are ready to move in for a kill.

No pilot with any sanity or common sense will think that negotiating with the public or the media will rssult in anything of value.

 

[formeraa]

Sweetie, every year these guys and gals have to do exactly that, go through an overwing exit on a Super 80. If they can't get through, well they just don't pass EPT's.
I realize that our profession evolved into a sensual, sexist, thing in the 60's and 70's/ With National's Fly Me and Braniff's We'll strip for you. And it would be so nice if we were all Stepford F/A's. But those days of discrimination are gone, legally anyways. Just keep on having your geisha dreams.

AAStew --

You forgot Continental's "We Move Our Tails for You". I really liked the slow motion on one commercial "We Really Moooove Our Tails for You...We Make Every Wish Come True...On Continental Aiiiirlllines...We Really Move Our Tails for You!" Nothing like being a pre-teen boy in those good old 70's!

Oh, and how about "United Airlines...Where You're The Boss!". United dropped that campaign after only a few months.

 

[ArtTang]

I can't let some of the Asian service observations go without comment...

In Asia and many other parts of the world, it's still OK to be a service professional. And the service you receive is far more thoughtful and delivered with consistency. That's not a function of age or subserviency.

The fact that North American cabin crews go to great lengths to promote themselves as "safety professionals" as opposed to "service professionals" says it all...

On my last flight with AA, the onboard service was indifferent at best from the entire crew, regardless of their body-size or age. There were, however, two FA's who couldn't have possibly met the old "height and weight in proportion" guidelines that were finally abolished a decade or so ago.

Do I think that AA should go back to weigh-in's? Nope. But there comes a point where if you can't fit thru the overwing exit on an MD80, you probably need to hang up your wings...
Back on topic...

I'm sure AA would consider variable/at-risk compensation up to 30%, which is what the senior management bonuses amounted to. But that's the difference -- the execs' compensation is at-risk, and APA is trying to get non-variable increases on that level.

Nice try, guys, but it ain't gonna happen.

Here I go off topic again, but...eolesen writes, "[On Asian carriers] [...] the service you receive is far more thoughtful and delivered with consistency."

I agree. And this is one of the main reasons for which AA is not in the same "class" as carriers such as Thai or Singapore. We have no consistency. We claim to offer such-and-such amenities to our customers, yet on any given flight, these promised items are quickly exhausted or not even catered, or the passenger's audio is broken, or her seat fails to recline, or...well, you get the picture.

So many maintenance items are repeatedly deferred that flight attendants (and passengers) see the exact same broken seat flying around the system for weeks on end. As for the inflight "service"...give me a break. Consider the last 'buy on board' flight I worked: On an oversold 757 from San Juan to Philadelphia, I sold all of the 33 sandwiches with which we were catered before I arrived at row 20 (yup, that's 33 sandwiches to offer to 189 passengers). The passengers sitting aft of row 20 were livid. So, what consistency is there in our service? The passengers are told there will be sandwiches on board for purchase, yet when they ask to buy one, the flight attendant is obligated to apologize for AA's poor service.

So, eolesen, you are correct! The Asian carriers offer more consistent service. Maybe our bean counters can learn from them.

Oh yes, one more thing. Contrary to your assessment, the FAA and US government seem to think flight attendants fall into the category of safety-related professionals; this is why we are certified.
Read: "In the fall of 2003, Congress established a flight attendant certification requirement under the Vision 100-Century of Aviation Reauthorization Act (the Act). Although flight attendants perform safety- and security-related functions, they previously had never been certificated like pilots, mechanics, aircraft dispatchers, parachute riggers, and others whom Congress calls airmen, collectively. Congress acknowledged that flight attendants perform vital crewmember functions onboard air carrier aircraft, including emergency functions for aircraft evacuations, firefighting, first aid, and response to security threats. Flight attendants are considered safety-sensitive employees subject to FAA drug and alcohol testing requirements and flight time limitations."


Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[ozcobber]

And to put it in perspective. On a Singapore Air flight from Hong Kong to Singapore, 747, I asked a F/A how many F/A's on board. "17 and a Chief Senior Purser" she said. And what does he do, I asked. A demure smile, "Nothing".

 

[flyhigh]

...sorry to try to get back on topic here, but I found this interesting.

As part of their openning request, the APA stated that AA could afford the 30% pay increase with a small ticket price increase...well folks, here's just one recent example of how well that would work:

"American Airlines, the nation's largest carrier, had matched Continental's increase but also retreated on most routes. US Airways Group Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. did the same, and Southwest Airlines Co. never started raises, officials who track air fares said."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070507/airline_fares.html?.v=1

In an industry where you don't have a real estate advantage (all airlines serve the same airport whereas one grocery store might be closer to your house thus allowing for a "convenience fee") and your prices are transparent to the customer (just about every website lays out all the available fares starting on the low end on the same page...the customer has to work to bias the system) it's very difficult to charge a true premium. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of customer shop based on price (including corporate premium customers who pre-shop on price through their contracts) and you have a no win situation. If NW is seeing softness, all the other kids in the playground have to suffer.

I think eolesen hit the nail on the head in saying you should go for payback through stock...much like the execs did. You can share in the upside they experienced then.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

From the APA website:

"30.5% is not a raise. If we receive 30.5%, we will be making our 1997 wages, not adjusted for inflation."


Do you know anyone outside the airline industry who's making 30.5% less than they were 10 years ago for performing the same job?

I wouldn't mind having a portion of my income in stock, if it were on the EXACT SAME terms as managements program; if the stock was exercisable immediately after received, if it were enough to make me whole for the past 10 years, and if it were pensionalbe.

 

[Bear96]

From the APA website:

"30.5% is not a raise. If we receive 30.5%, we will be making our 1997 wages, not adjusted for inflation."
Do you know anyone outside the airline industry who's making 30.5% less than they were 10 years ago for performing the same job?

How is that relevant? Outside the airline industry, if an employer cuts pay by 30%, the employees leave and find other jobs. This provides the employer with a great incentive to not cut pay that much.

In the airline industry, by contrast, an employer can apparently cut pay by 30% for some positions, and the employees in those positions actually STAY! Go figure! Therefore there is not much of an incentive for the employer to keep wages up.

 

[AAStew]

How is that relevant? Outside the airline industry, if an employer cuts pay by 30%, the employees leave and find other jobs. This provides the employer with a great incentive to not cut pay that much.

In the airline industry, by contrast, an employer can apparently cut pay by 30% for some positions, and the employees in those positions actually STAY! Go figure! Therefore there is not much of an incentive for the employer to keep wages up.

In another industry, if there was a mass exodus, they could probably replace those workers easily and train them to do the job. In the pilot industry, yes you may be able to replace them fairly quickly, but training is expensive, and finding the caliber of pilots we have gone for in the past may be difficult. How will that change the public's perception of safety in the air?
More and more military pilots are staying in the military. Pay is beginning to match private industry, job is secure and pension is safe. Unfortunately it bodes badly for the future of the pilot profession as standards will be lowered. It may be eventually reduced to the status of a bus driver, do you really want to fly with pilots like that? I don't, our pilots are highly qualified, mostly ex-military. Delta airlines is the only other major with as high a percentage of military pilots as we do. No offense to the pilots who went the civilian route, but I feel very safe with our cockpits.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Therefore there is not much of an incentive for the employer to keep wages up.

Nor is there much incentive for the employee to do anything more than the bare minimum