No Deal Reached Between APFA and AA After 4 Days of Talks

[Hopeful]

What I posted was not a joke. I was right on target. 2011, we will see the recall list cleared. This will probably happen before the middle of the year, and New Hire training will follow. AA is ready to expand and will do so.........

Same goes for MX....They are now in the process of upgrading other classifications into mechanic. there are no more recalls. They will be hiring next. They wanted the TA badly for that reason to address the new hire issue.
My hunch is that there will be a new TA which will satisfy current mechanics but maintain the no-pension,no-retiree medical and starting salary for new hires.

 

[FWAAA]

Yes no joke at all..... You were right on....
And I think you're right on with this info as well. I just heard from a pilot coming back from training that AA will be purchasing 33-35 777-300 and delivery will start in 2012.. So that surely will require new hires.
Also I think the F/A group will see a contract in the first quarter os 2011.

Nearly three dozen 777-300s? There are pilots out there who just like to yank FAs' chains. It must be a game for them: "Let's feed them some outlandish rumours and let the galley gossip fly."

 

[MCI transplant]

Same goes for MX....They are now in the process of upgrading other classifications into mechanic. there are no more recalls. They will be hiring next. They wanted the TA badly for that reason to address the new hire issue.
My hunch is that there will be a new TA which will satisfy current mechanics but maintain the no-pension,no-retiree medical and starting salary for new hires.

So what would be the incentive to go to work for AA? ------ Oh, they'd get the newbies straight out of school, but experienced AMT's? At least not for any length of time! AA will train the newbies, and as soon as AA teaches them one wrench from another, they'll be going on down the road! AA's turnover rate would go through the ceiling! Believe me, I've seen it in the past! --------But than again, maybe this doesn't concern the big boys at AA!?

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip
... and as soon as AA teaches them one wrench from another, they'll be going on down the road! AA's turnover rate would go through the ceiling! Believe me, I've seen it in the past! --------But than again, maybe this doesn't concern the big boys at AA!?

Hell no, it wouldn't matter to the execs.

GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) only addresses intangible things like "goodwill" and can't address things like time and money spent on a mechanic's training just to watch that mechanic push his/her toolbox to a competitor's hanger.

Those at the top are accountants, not businesspeople.

 

[Hopeful]

So what would be the incentive to go to work for AA? ------ Oh, they'd get the newbies straight out of school, but experienced AMT's? At least not for any length of time! AA will train the newbies, and as soon as AA teaches them one wrench from another, they'll be going on down the road! AA's turnover rate would go through the ceiling! Believe me, I've seen it in the past! --------But than again, maybe this doesn't concern the big boys at AA!?

I think AA's goal is to pay new hires what every other airline is paying with similar benefits. As for experience, we were all inexperienced when we started in this industry. And once they hit the floor and are fleet qualified, they will be part of the headcount.

 

[eolesen]

Once they're experienced, where else do you think they are going to go, MCI?

Every other airline seems to have a recall list, unless they're terminating recall rights after X years (which I don't think anyone other than the APFA has done since 2001). The few that UPS and WN will hire are bringing years of experience, not months. Regional airlines? Who would leave AA to go work for Skywest (unless they really, really want to live in Utah)?...

 

[Bob Owens]

Once they're experienced, where else do you think they are going to go, MCI?

Every other airline seems to have a recall list, unless they're terminating recall rights after X years (which I don't think anyone other than the APFA has done since 2001). The few that UPS and WN will hire are bringing years of experience, not months. Regional airlines? Who would leave AA to go work for Skywest (unless they really, really want to live in Utah)?...

Those recall lists are being exhausted very quickly, guess you missed the articles about how AAR was looking for 100 mechs in OKC and 200 in Indianappolis. You must of also missed how the FAA has only been issuing around 6000 new certs a year, it takes two to be an A&P. Thats at the most 3000 A&Ps a year, less than one mechanic per airport and the airlines are just one part of the industry, a part thats become less and appealing since most of those jobs are in densely populated areas where costs are higher. Even Tulsa would be considered expensive compared to rural areas. AA is looking to add around 900 heads next year, mostly A&Ps. Southwest will be adding another oh line because the purchase of Airtran brings their fleet up to a number that triggers another heavy check in house. I've heard that in Dallas there are guys who have nearly a thousand hours of OT for the year. Boeing has made a lot of promises to deliver a lot of airplanes. Attrition rates will likely accellerate over the next few years due to the fact that the Vietnam era guys are hitting that age, guys my age are jumping ship into other industries while they still can and the average age is higher due to nearly a decade of very little new blood.


Despite 15 million unemployed people are continueing to leave this industry faster than they are coming in, nearly all of them by choice. The only thing saving the airlines is OT and guys working at two carriers. When is the last time you saw a large sclae layoff of mechanics? When did you ever see mergers where the airlines didnt layoff mechanics? Well we have seen four mergers in the last few years where the combined carriers kept all their mechanics, NWA/Delta, USAIR./America West, United/CAL and now SWA/Airtran. It could be argued that one of the motives for these mergers was to aquire labor capital. All those carriers, and AA will be hiring off the street in 2011. The shrinking labor pool was fine when the carriers were reducing capacity, but now that capacity has been stabilized, actually its starting to increase, they need for the bleeding to stop, and it isnt. The large reserves of furloughs that the big boys had is turing out to be dry, mechanics arent coming back in large numbers,they were either hired by the legacies so called "low cost competitors" (who continued to grow after 9-11) where they make more, or left the industry.

They have plenty of places to go, not only in the industry but out of it as well.The fact is A&Ps can go any where airplanes go, which is pretty much everywhere, and the skillsets we have can carry over into other industries as well.

 

[Hopeful]

The funny thing is that pro-corporate defenders like to cite "MARKET DEMAND" when it comes to executive compensation..Ya know.....to hire and retain the key "talent."....
But now that there is the beginnings of a mechanic's shortage, that same "MARKET DEMAND" argument no longer applies...
Why is that? Why because the chosen elite at the top do not wish anyone in the lower ranks to raise their standards of living.
This is why the company, and airlines in general, is pushing for a lower classification of mechanic to staff the overhaul bases. This will alleviate some of the pressure of compensating full A&P's.
Instead of raising compensation for mechanics and luring them back into this once great career field, airlines are increasing downward pressure to further destroy the mechanic. Eventually they will cry and run to the government screaming, kicking and hollering...."WE CAN'T FIND ANY MECHANICS TO FIX OUR AIRCRAFT, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND,,,,,,WE NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO ELIMINATE THE A&P REQUIREMENT SO WE CAN HIRE ANYONE TO DO THE JOB.....
"OH AND BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU ELIMINATE THE A&P REQUIREMENT, WE ASK THAT YOU EXEMPT THE AIRLINES FROM ANY WRONGDOING AND GO AFTER THE INDIVIDUAL WHO WORKED ON THAT AIRCRAFT THAT CRASHED OR WAS FORCED INTO AN EMERGENCY LANDING.....OK FEDS?

 

[Frank Szabo]

The funny thing is that pro-corporate defenders like to cite "MARKET DEMAND" when it comes to executive compensation..Ya know.....to hire and retain the key "talent."....
But now that there is the beginnings of a mechanic's shortage, that same "MARKET DEMAND" argument no longer applies...
Why is that? Why because the chosen elite at the top do not wish anyone in the lower ranks to raise their standards of living.
This is why the company, and airlines in general, is pushing for a lower classification of mechanic to staff the overhaul bases. This will alleviate some of the pressure of compensating full A&P's.
Instead of raising compensation for mechanics and luring them back into this once great career field, airlines are increasing downward pressure to further destroy the mechanic. Eventually they will cry and run to the government screaming, kicking and hollering...."WE CAN'T FIND ANY MECHANICS TO FIX OUR AIRCRAFT, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND,,,,,,WE NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO ELIMINATE THE A&P REQUIREMENT SO WE CAN HIRE ANYONE TO DO THE JOB.....
"OH AND BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU ELIMINATE THE A&P REQUIREMENT, WE ASK THAT YOU EXEMPT THE AIRLINES FROM ANY WRONGDOING AND GO AFTER THE INDIVIDUAL WHO WORKED ON THAT AIRCRAFT THAT CRASHED OR WAS FORCED INTO AN EMERGENCY LANDING.....OK FEDS?

If memory serves me correctly, there is no FAA requirement for A&Ps to do anything but return an aircraft to service. I believe there is already a ratio in place as to the number of non-A&P mechanics (12:1, I think) that can do maintenance under the "leadership of one certificated mechanic.

 

[Maark767]

Nearly three dozen 777-300s? There are pilots out there who just like to yank FAs' chains. It must be a game for them: "Let's feed them some outlandish rumours and let the galley gossip fly."

Just wait and see..... 33 new A/C in a fleet of nearly 600 ...... small number to me.

 

[Hopeful]

If memory serves me correctly, there is no FAA requirement for A&Ps to do anything but return an aircraft to service. I believe there is already a ratio in place as to the number of non-A&P mechanics (12:1, I think) that can do maintenance under the "leadership of one certificated mechanic.

Which points to "liability."
Airlines have no problem with feeding a mechanic to the wolves when he or she screws up. But eliminate the A&P and the airlines will have to assume liability and pay the price for each non-licensed screw up. You think they're willing to begin paying for individuals workers screw ups?
I will never sign for a non-licensed worker's work!!!! Will you?

 

[FWAAA]

I thought this was a thread about the APFA. And yet, like nearly every other thread, the discussion has veered toward maintenance. Do FAs now have to maintain the aircraft on downline turns?

 

[Maark767]

I thought this was a thread about the APFA. And yet, like nearly every other thread, the discussion has veered toward maintenance. Do FAs now have to maintain the aircraft on downline turns?

where did that come from???

 

[FWAAA]

Just wait and see..... 33 new A/C in a fleet of nearly 600 ...... small number to me.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about 33 new 738s. But 33 twin-engined 747-sized widebodies? That's huge (and costly). 777-300s are substantially larger than the 34 grounded and retired AB6 fleet. Delivery of 33 777-300s would take two or three years and would require substantial hiring of pilots and FAs. AA would also need a lot of new destinations - where would all those huge planes be flown? Or if they replaced 777-200s, where would all those planes be flown? 777-300s make good replacements for airlines flying older 747s (like JAL and CX, which are buying 777-300s and grounding older 747s) but I don't see AA all of a sudden deciding that it needs very large planes when it's gone decades without planes of that size.

Anything's possible - I just don't think there's a realistic probability that AA buys a single 777-300, let alone as many as 33 of them. But if it does happen - FAs (among others) should be ecstatic.

 

[FWAAA]

where did that come from???

I was just joking about Hopeful and Bob Owens and others discussing the plight of the TWU and AMTs in the past several posts. Sorry about that. Happy Holidays!