AA employees get 4% raises

NYer said:
 
To get an answer, which hasn't yet been presented.
 
 
If you want to know look it up yourself. 
 
 
 
What difference does it make how many mechanics UPS or WN has?
 
 
 
Isn't it true that prior to BK AA had more Flight Attendants, Pilots and Fleet Service clerks than WN or UPS, or any of the other legacy carriers and AA paid very close to or more than what they pay? And now Our Flight Attendants make more and AA easily has more Flight Attendants than any other carrier but we don't see people saying that because AA has more the APFA should agree to bottom of the industry contracts do we? 
 
 
UPS and WN have never been in the business of overhauling their aircraft, that’s the way it was when we made more than WN and that’s the way it was when we made around the same as UPS. How many mechanics AA has doesn’t lessen the value or liability that each and every mechanic at AA contributes to the operation. Your spin is to treat us as the TWU’s commodity.  According to spinmasters like you we should agree to discount our Labor so the Union can have more people paying dues. That’s not what Union are for. The farmer doesn’t exist for the benefit of the Pigs that become the pork bellies he sells so if he discounts for volume that’s ok , Pork bellies are a commodity, but Unions are supposed to exist for the members that pay dues and the goal is to maximize pay rates and benefits. Most Unions adhere and promote the concept of “Our labor is not a commodity” not “Your labor is now the Unions commodity to sell”.  Even our laws still recognize that , Section 6 of the Clayton Act said “[SIZE=13pt]That the labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce,". [/SIZE]The ILO considers it to be one of the most important concepts of the organization. So enough with feigning that you are simply asking a question that you already know the answer to, nobody cares nor should they, those Unions have done a fairly good job for their members, none of them have been laid off and their pay is considerably higher than their peers. 
 
 
 
UPS and WN are and have always been primarily Line Maintenance. That hasn’t changed, what has changed is that mechanics pay rates at several carriers, especially at AA have plummeted, and on top of that many mechanics have been laid off and the company eliminated roughly 50% of the jobs since 2001, and that decline was orchestrated by not only the carriers but Unions at those carriers.
 
 
 
Under the “more employees means lower wages” logic it’s OK that Walmart doesn’t provide benefits and pays low wages because they employ more people than any other retailer, thus, going by the argument we have seen in the past they should get a discount on labor because they employ more people, the problem with that line of thinking is giving a discount on labor is not what people pay Union dues for. Its the same argument against raising the minimum wage, that if they pay more they will hire less. Another right wing lie because its demand for labor that drives employment, the reason for lower wages is singular-Higher Profits. Pretty sad when people who claim to be Union adopt and promote all the arguments of Union Busters. 
 
The Union didn’t get me this job, I applied and was hired based upon my own qualifications and experience, had I not been hired by AA I would have been hired somewhere else. AA was simply the first to call. There is no shortage of jobs for people with mechanical skills and abilities, we join a Union to maximize our pay and benefits, not to discount our labor so the company will hire more people and the Union gets more dues.  Once again we know what your response will be, the same response Union Busters give when their employees seek a Union, "if you don't like it leave", unfortunately for Union Busters we have other alternatives, we can Unionize, then the struggle is to get a real collective bargaining agent that isn't in the company's pocket and prevent management sympathizers like you from assuming positions of Union Leadership and spinning Union Busting propaganda to justify sell out deals. Just because this Collective Bargaining Agent  was in place before I got here doesn't change the fact that fiduciarily they still work for our collective benefits, not theirs.
 
The fact is that what we do as mechanics at American Airlines is the same exact thing that mechanics at UPS and WN are doing. Same skills, same license requirements and same liability. They are of exactly the same value, the difference is that our Union has not been able to capture that because many of the leaders forget that they aren’t pig farmers, our labor is not their commodity to sell, they are supposed to be Union leaders furthering the interests of the members.  
 
Bob Owens said:
And some will then sit back and complain (behind an alias of course) about the agreements that they(collectively) ratified. 
 
 
I thought during negotations everything is suppose to be "status quo", meaning during a vote like the pilots negotations the company cannot change anything. If the company did, that it could be considered tampering with the vote.
 
Bob Owens said:
 
 

The fact is that what we do as mechanics at American Airlines is the same exact thing that mechanics at UPS and WN are doing. Same skills, same license requirements and same liability. They are of exactly the same value, the difference is that our Union has not been able to capture that because many of the leaders forget that they aren’t pig farmers, our labor is not their commodity to sell, they are supposed to be Union leaders furthering the interests of the members.  

Bob do you ever consider the financials of the companies you constantly site as your barometer of what you should be paid? How much revenue do and can they generate and how much debt do they have on their books? How much is their Market cap? Money doesn't grow on trees and a company needs to make enough money to be able to support the type of wages that WE are looking for.

Because the airline industry is now consolidated, fares are way up and capacity is being restrained, they are finally in the position to start to pay you what you feel you "deserve". Passengers are the ones who pay our salaries and for the longest time they weren't willing to pay what we want because too few passengers for too many seats wasn't generating the revenue for it. (They are now)

Yes you filled out the wrong job application. So did I, I guess since UPS package delivery drivers currently enjoy a top out rate of $28.14 according to their contract. Should we both kick ourselves since we didn't have a crystal ball when we hired on? Nah why do that when it's easier to point fingers because we didn't have the foresight to see what was down the road 20 and 30 years down into our lives.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=UPS+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=LUV+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AAL+Key+Statistics
 
If you want to know look it up yourself. 

 
What difference does it make how many mechanics UPS or WN has?
 
Isn't it true that prior to BK AA had more Flight Attendants, Pilots and Fleet Service clerks than WN or UPS, or any of the other legacy carriers and AA paid very close to or more than what they pay? And now Our Flight Attendants make more and AA easily has more Flight Attendants than any other carrier but we don't see people saying that because AA has more the APFA should agree to bottom of the industry contracts do we? --"And some will then sit back and complain (behind an alias of course) about the agreements that they(collectively) ratified." --Bob Owens.
 
Et tu, Bob.
 
UPS and WN have never been in the business of overhauling their aircraft, that’s the way it was when we made more than WN and that’s the way it was when we made around the same as UPS. How many mechanics AA has doesn’t lessen the value or liability that each and every mechanic at AA contributes to the operation. Your spin is to treat us as the TWU’s commodity.  According to spinmasters like you we should agree to discount our Labor so the Union can have more people paying dues. That’s not what Union are for. --Trying to retain jobs is not what unions are for? I guess it is solely to try and make as much money as possible for those that happen to be left.
 
The farmer doesn’t exist for the benefit of the Pigs that become the pork bellies he sells so if he discounts for volume that’s ok , Pork bellies are a commodity, but Unions are supposed to exist for the members that pay dues and the goal is to maximize pay rates and benefits.--Not try to retain jobs?
 
Most Unions adhere and promote the concept of “Our labor is not a commodity” not “Your labor is now the Unions commodity to sell”.  Even our laws still recognize that , Section 6 of the Clayton Act said “[SIZE=13pt]That the labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce,". [/SIZE]The ILO considers it to be one of the most important concepts of the organization. So enough with feigning that you are simply asking a question that you already know the answer to, nobody cares nor should they, those Unions have done a fairly good job for their members, none of them have been laid off and their pay is considerably higher than their peers. --So pay is paramount above all else.
 
UPS and WN are and have always been primarily Line Maintenance. That hasn’t changed, what has changed is that mechanics pay rates at several carriers, especially at AA have plummeted, and on top of that many mechanics have been laid off and the company eliminated roughly 50% of the jobs since 2001, and that decline was orchestrated by not only the carriers but Unions at those carriers. --At least we can agree that jobs have been clipped at almost every large airline, even a stalwart in AMT unionism has lost about 80% of their Members since their peak of 20,000.
 
Under the “more employees means lower wages” logic it’s OK that Walmart doesn’t provide benefits and pays low wages because they employ more people than any other retailer, thus, going by the argument we have seen in the past they should get a discount on labor because they employ more people, the problem with that line of thinking is giving a discount on labor is not what people pay Union dues for. Its the same argument against raising the minimum wage, that if they pay more they will hire less. Another right wing lie because its demand for labor that drives employment, the reason for lower wages is singular-Higher Profits. Pretty sad when people who claim to be Union adopt and promote all the arguments of Union Busters. --Comparing ourselves to Walmart workers, are we. First, they don't employ many people because they're paying low wages. They employ many people because they have a lot of customers. If you're a competitor of Walmart, can you pay significantly more than Walmart without cutting costs elsewhere? No. That company has grown because they sell cheaper than everyone else, not because they pay low wages.
 
The Union didn’t get me this job, I applied and was hired based upon my own qualifications and experience, had I not been hired by AA I would have been hired somewhere else. AA was simply the first to call. There is no shortage of jobs for people with mechanical skills and abilities, we join a Union to maximize our pay and benefits, not to discount our labor so the company will hire more people and the Union gets more dues.  Once again we know what your response will be, the same response Union Busters give when their employees seek a Union, "if you don't like it leave", unfortunately for Union Busters we have other alternatives, we can Unionize, then the struggle is to get a real collective bargaining agent that isn't in the company's pocket and prevent management sympathizers like you from assuming positions of Union Leadership and spinning Union Busting propaganda to justify sell out deals. Just because this Collective Bargaining Agent  was in place before I got here doesn't change the fact that fiduciarily they still work for our collective benefits, not theirs. --OK. I guess you're forgotten where I have encouraged our colleagues to take this time and get more cards signed. You can go the AMFA route, if that's the organization you are referring to. It might not matter they've lost more Members, by percentage, than any one else. If an alternative is the answer, then start the work to get that alternative in here. It does no good to come on these blogs and complain, unless you're willing to do the foot work and bring the change you seem to imply we need. I know that change won't come internally, because you have been unable to make those inroads and you've been in an elected positions for quite some time now.
 
Let's make the move...talking about it doesn't get it done.
 
The fact is that what we do as mechanics at American Airlines is the same exact thing that mechanics at UPS and WN are doing. Same skills, same license requirements and same liability. They are of exactly the same value, the difference is that our Union has not been able to capture that because many of the leaders forget that they aren’t pig farmers, our labor is not their commodity to sell, they are supposed to be Union leaders furthering the interests of the members. --With that logic then we also do the same as mechanics at MRO's and a myriad of other union and non-union maintenance bases all over the country.
 
...And you are correct, a union is supposed to work towards furthering the interests of the Members. For many of those Members, it means to try and protect their positions or some of their benefits. That tag line doesn't just fit your ideology, it supposed to fit the interests of thousands, not just a few loud ones.
 
WeAAsles said:
Bob do you ever consider the financials of the companies you constantly site as your barometer of what you should be paid? How much revenue do and can they generate and how much debt do they have on their books? How much is their Market cap? Money doesn't grow on trees and a company needs to make enough money to be able to support the type of wages that WE are looking for.

Because the airline industry is now consolidated, fares are way up and capacity is being restrained, they are finally in the position to start to pay you what you feel you "deserve". Passengers are the ones who pay our salaries and for the longest time they weren't willing to pay what we want because too few passengers for too many seats wasn't generating the revenue for it. (They are now)

Yes you filled out the wrong job application. So did I, I guess since UPS package delivery drivers currently enjoy a top out rate of $28.14 according to their contract. Should we both kick ourselves since we didn't have a crystal ball when we hired on? Nah why do that when it's easier to point fingers because we didn't have the foresight to see what was down the road 20 and 30 years down into our lives.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=UPS+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=LUV+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AAL+Key+Statistics
 
 
Looking at the company financials still doesn't explain why the AA AMTs are the only group at AA, that is no where near as close to their industry peers in pay and benefits.
 
Since you're a FSC and still near the top in the industry - in pay and benefits, pretty easy for you to sit back and make excuses for screwing the AMTs.
 
Oh BTW you might want to check the UPS package driver pay rates again cause they make over $32.00ph.  The UPS tractor trailer drivers are over $40.00ph.  Even the PT "on call air" drivers are around $25.00ph.
 
NYer said:
If you want to know look it up yourself. 

 
What difference does it make how many mechanics UPS or WN has?
 
Isn't it true that prior to BK AA had more Flight Attendants, Pilots and Fleet Service clerks than WN or UPS, or any of the other legacy carriers and AA paid very close to or more than what they pay? And now Our Flight Attendants make more and AA easily has more Flight Attendants than any other carrier but we don't see people saying that because AA has more the APFA should agree to bottom of the industry contracts do we? --"And some will then sit back and complain (behind an alias of course) about the agreements that they(collectively) ratified." --Bob Owens.
 
Et tu, Bob.
 
UPS and WN have never been in the business of overhauling their aircraft, that’s the way it was when we made more than WN and that’s the way it was when we made around the same as UPS. How many mechanics AA has doesn’t lessen the value or liability that each and every mechanic at AA contributes to the operation. Your spin is to treat us as the TWU’s commodity.  According to spinmasters like you we should agree to discount our Labor so the Union can have more people paying dues. That’s not what Union are for. --Trying to retain jobs is not what unions are for? I guess it is solely to try and make as much money as possible for those that happen to be left.
 
The farmer doesn’t exist for the benefit of the Pigs that become the pork bellies he sells so if he discounts for volume that’s ok , Pork bellies are a commodity, but Unions are supposed to exist for the members that pay dues and the goal is to maximize pay rates and benefits.--Not try to retain jobs?
 
Most Unions adhere and promote the concept of “Our labor is not a commodity” not “Your labor is now the Unions commodity to sell”.  Even our laws still recognize that , Section 6 of the Clayton Act said “[SIZE=13pt]That the labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce,". [/SIZE]The ILO considers it to be one of the most important concepts of the organization. So enough with feigning that you are simply asking a question that you already know the answer to, nobody cares nor should they, those Unions have done a fairly good job for their members, none of them have been laid off and their pay is considerably higher than their peers. --So pay is paramount above all else.
 
UPS and WN are and have always been primarily Line Maintenance. That hasn’t changed, what has changed is that mechanics pay rates at several carriers, especially at AA have plummeted, and on top of that many mechanics have been laid off and the company eliminated roughly 50% of the jobs since 2001, and that decline was orchestrated by not only the carriers but Unions at those carriers. --At least we can agree that jobs have been clipped at almost every large airline, even a stalwart in AMT unionism has lost about 80% of their Members since their peak of 20,000.
 
Under the “more employees means lower wages” logic it’s OK that Walmart doesn’t provide benefits and pays low wages because they employ more people than any other retailer, thus, going by the argument we have seen in the past they should get a discount on labor because they employ more people, the problem with that line of thinking is giving a discount on labor is not what people pay Union dues for. Its the same argument against raising the minimum wage, that if they pay more they will hire less. Another right wing lie because its demand for labor that drives employment, the reason for lower wages is singular-Higher Profits. Pretty sad when people who claim to be Union adopt and promote all the arguments of Union Busters. --Comparing ourselves to Walmart workers, are we. First, they don't employ many people because they're paying low wages. They employ many people because they have a lot of customers. If you're a competitor of Walmart, can you pay significantly more than Walmart without cutting costs elsewhere? No. That company has grown because they sell cheaper than everyone else, not because they pay low wages.
 
The Union didn’t get me this job, I applied and was hired based upon my own qualifications and experience, had I not been hired by AA I would have been hired somewhere else. AA was simply the first to call. There is no shortage of jobs for people with mechanical skills and abilities, we join a Union to maximize our pay and benefits, not to discount our labor so the company will hire more people and the Union gets more dues.  Once again we know what your response will be, the same response Union Busters give when their employees seek a Union, "if you don't like it leave", unfortunately for Union Busters we have other alternatives, we can Unionize, then the struggle is to get a real collective bargaining agent that isn't in the company's pocket and prevent management sympathizers like you from assuming positions of Union Leadership and spinning Union Busting propaganda to justify sell out deals. Just because this Collective Bargaining Agent  was in place before I got here doesn't change the fact that fiduciarily they still work for our collective benefits, not theirs. --OK. I guess you're forgotten where I have encouraged our colleagues to take this time and get more cards signed. You can go the AMFA route, if that's the organization you are referring to. It might not matter they've lost more Members, by percentage, than any one else. If an alternative is the answer, then start the work to get that alternative in here. It does no good to come on these blogs and complain, unless you're willing to do the foot work and bring the change you seem to imply we need. I know that change won't come internally, because you have been unable to make those inroads and you've been in an elected positions for quite some time now.
 
Let's make the move...talking about it doesn't get it done.
 
The fact is that what we do as mechanics at American Airlines is the same exact thing that mechanics at UPS and WN are doing. Same skills, same license requirements and same liability. They are of exactly the same value, the difference is that our Union has not been able to capture that because many of the leaders forget that they aren’t pig farmers, our labor is not their commodity to sell, they are supposed to be Union leaders furthering the interests of the members. --With that logic then we also do the same as mechanics at MRO's and a myriad of other union and non-union maintenance bases all over the country.
 
...And you are correct, a union is supposed to work towards furthering the interests of the Members. For many of those Members, it means to try and protect their positions or some of their benefits. That tag line doesn't just fit your ideology, it supposed to fit the interests of thousands, not just a few loud ones.
 
 
Said Commissar NYer.
 
Vortilon said:
 
 
Looking at the company financials still doesn't explain why the AA AMTs are the only group at AA, that is no where near as close to their industry peers in pay and benefits.
 
Since you're a FSC and still near the top in the industry - in pay and benefits, pretty easy for you to sit back and make excuses for screwing the AMTs.
 
Oh BTW you might want to check the UPS package driver pay rates again cause they make over $32.00ph.  The UPS tractor trailer drivers are over $40.00ph.  Even the PT "on call air" drivers are around $25.00ph.
 
UPS is Teamsters....start that drive again.
 
Vortilon said:
 
 
Looking at the company financials still doesn't explain why the AA AMTs are the only group at AA, that is no where near as close to their industry peers in pay and benefits.

You have more jobs. You have more jobs. You have more jobs. You have more jobs. You have more jobs. Bet you can't wait to dump those jobs but once again, You have more jobs.
 
 
Since you're a FSC and still near the top in the industry - in pay and benefits, pretty easy for you to sit back and make excuses for screwing the AMTs.

We have about equal jobs, less pay. We have about equal jobs, less pay. We have about equal jobs, less pay. We have about equal jobs, less pay.

Dump the OH jobs and you'll have more pay.

 
 
Oh BTW you might want to check the UPS package driver pay rates again cause they make over $32.00ph.  The UPS tractor trailer drivers are over $40.00ph.  Even the PT "on call air" drivers are around $25.00ph.

So I filled out the wrong application then. Operative word "I"
 
 
 You can go the AMFA route, if that's the organization you are referring to. It might not matter they've lost more Members, by percentage, than any one else. 
 
 
WRONG! The IAM has lost more jobs than anyone else!
Maybe you are too young to recall, but the IAM dominated the airline industry up until the 80's. 
They represented ground workers at airlines I'm sure you don't even know existed.....Northwest, Republic, Eastern, Piedmont, USAIR, TWA, United, Continental and National, just to name a few of carriers. 
Get your facts straight!
 
Oh, and before you reply with...."Oh well. those airlines al went bankrupt and were taken over" let me remind you they got booted out at NWA and UA and Continental.
 
Vortilon said:
 
 
Looking at the company financials still doesn't explain why the AA AMTs are the only group at AA, that is no where near as close to their industry peers in pay and benefits.
 
Since you're a FSC and still near the top in the industry - in pay and benefits, pretty easy for you to sit back and make excuses for screwing the AMTs.
 
Oh BTW you might want to check the UPS package driver pay rates again cause they make over $32.00ph.  The UPS tractor trailer drivers are over $40.00ph.  Even the PT "on call air" drivers are around $25.00ph.
Be afraid,  FSCs like this have been appointed to the TWU ATD.  
 
OldGuy@AA said:
Be afraid,  FSCs like this have been appointed to the TWU ATD.  
Maybe to try and protect old guys who've breathed in just a little too much Jet A in their careers?
 
WeAAsles said:
Maybe to try and protect old guys who've breathed in just a little too much Jet A in their careers?
No the reason is to continue to improve FSC and Stores contracts at the expense of the AMTs.  The 2003 and 2012 contracts are prime examples.  Of course you don't have a problem with any of that since you are FS and your boys are calling the shots. 
 
As far as breathing too much JP 4 fumes, I take drug and alcohol tests all the time.  When's the last time you took one?  I'll answer that for you.  Unless you ran into an airplane with a baggage cart or bag loader, you haven't taken one since you hired in.  Another little thing FSCs don't have to deal with.
 
OldGuy@AA said:
As far as breathing too much JP 4 fumes, I take drug and alcohol tests all the time.  When's the last time you took one?  I'll answer that for you.  Unless you ran into an airplane with a baggage cart or bag loader, you haven't taken one since you hired in.  Another little thing FSCs don't have to deal with.
Yes and at the moment I'm puffing away on a Big Fat spliff while I drink away some Dom Perignon that I have been able to afford by keeping you and your group under my heel. Later on I may even have a Quaalude or two as I laugh all the way to the bank. :p

BTW why do you keep bringing up the drug testing? Still longing for the good old days before you became an aircraft mechanic?
 

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