West side hiring pilots for 190?

[exB717Flyer]

This talk about flowback/flowthrough reminds me of the Eagle/AA deal. The Eaglets were happy with the flowthrough, though the numbers weren't what they believe the agreement called for. But when furloughs came and it was time for the flowback, well, all heck broke loose. How dare those never-been-captain-before AA skygods take those hard-earned Eagle-jet left-seats. Shocking, just shocking.

 

[Furloughedagain]

..and therein lies the rub. YOU want to "flow back to the left seat of a PSA aircraft"in the event of furlough while THEY get to flow up into a mainline F/O slot,if indeed you guys are hiring (fat chance at this point).If you want to reach some sort of consensus on flow through it should be flow down to right seat positions only."

Um... sure. That makes sense... and if that is the current line of thinking then perhaps only first officers at PSA should be able to flow to mainline because, after all, they'll be first officers when they get there! Right?

If you upgrade you're no longer eligible for the flow. Sound fair?

Give me a break. I think you've been drinking some bad kool-aid. It doesn't work that way. You are asking the mainline MEC to give you a gift -- a mainline seniority number without an interview. That means that some of you folks who would lack the basic requirements to be hired by a major (like a college degree for example) might have a shot at the "brass ring" (yes, it sounds silly talking about a company with 1000+ furloughs as a "brass ring").

Ok, so what do you offer in return? Simple. Furlough protection. A bidirectional flow limits the economic impact of downsizing by allowing a junior mainline pilot to flow down to a job that pays (theoretically) similar pay rates.

If you want the BENEFIT of the flow, then you take the good with the bad. Flow up when times are good, flow back when times are bad.

The price isn't even paid by you. All you will lose is your left seat -- Your junior pilots who will be furloughed as a result of the flowback truly pay the price.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Everything has its price. The price for the hundreds of replacement jets was J4J (although if you could convince Doug to park the RJs and bring back my DC9 i'll sure be happy to go fly it again!).

You want to flow up to mainline but when times are tough have me flow back to your copilot seat??? Come on. Welcome to aviation kiddo. Read my screen name. It didn't happen by making any different decisions than you would have made.

-FurloughedAgain

 

[Dorf]

Dorf

Are you sure they have 90 yes commitments for the 26 slots? My question is sincere as I am an early 99 hire, I passed on the first group 2 recall because the timing was wrong for me, but now I'm planning to accept a group 2 recall when the 130 recalls from the July bid are called. Do you know the seniority breakdown of the 90 that are going to accept the e-190? I currently plan on passing on the 190 recall(just received the certified mail for that one today) but I need to gather as much info as I can to avoid making the assumption that I'm going to be able to hold a slot in this next group 2 recall. After the most recent recall I have about 450 pilots senior to me on the furlough list (and about 1000 junior to me). Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

B

B
According to a friend that talked to Char. on Tuesday, she had at least 60-70 yes for the 190. She estimated that she had another 30-40 responses that were yet to be tallied(not counting the people who have yet to respond), but figured at a quick glance, she would have at least 20 more yes. She gave no indication of seniority numbers of the yes responses. IMHO, if you only have 450 in front of you, you will probably get a shot in the next round since the classes for group 2 of this round are still not filled. Sorry I can't be of more help, but this is all the intel I have at this point. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.
Dorf

 

[CV580ETOPS]

Um... sure. That makes sense... and if that is the current line of thinking then perhaps only first officers at PSA should be able to flow to mainline because, after all, they'll be first officers when they get there! Right?

If you upgrade you're no longer eligible for the flow. Sound fair?

Give me a break. I think you've been drinking some bad kool-aid. It doesn't work that way. You are asking the mainline MEC to give you a gift -- a mainline seniority number without an interview. That means that some of you folks who would lack the basic requirements to be hired by a major (like a college degree for example) might have a shot at the "brass ring" (yes, it sounds silly talking about a company with 1000+ furloughs as a "brass ring").

Ok, so what do you offer in return? Simple. Furlough protection. A bidirectional flow limits the economic impact of downsizing by allowing a junior mainline pilot to flow down to a job that pays (theoretically) similar pay rates.

If you want the BENEFIT of the flow, then you take the good with the bad. Flow up when times are good, flow back when times are bad.

The price isn't even paid by you. All you will lose is your left seat -- Your junior pilots who will be furloughed as a result of the flowback truly pay the price.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Everything has its price. The price for the hundreds of replacement jets was J4J (although if you could convince Doug to park the RJs and bring back my DC9 i'll sure be happy to go fly it again!).

You want to flow up to mainline but when times are tough have me flow back to your copilot seat??? Come on. Welcome to aviation kiddo. Read my screen name. It didn't happen by making any different decisions than you would have made.

-FurloughedAgain

First off let's set the record straight.I do not work for USAir or any of the W/O regional carriers that have the poor misfortune of being owned by them . I'm just not that stupid. Second off, Check your meds. I said that if there ever was a bi-directional flow through, it should be a two way flow between the mainline company and its wholly owned regional to the respective right seats of each carrier only. Why should you bump some regional pilot out of his left seat just because you got furloughed from your mainline position,especially if he spent more time on that property than you? He sure wasn't holding a gun to your head forcing you to fill out that USAir application.And don't pilots have something called a senority list? Doesn't that violate the sanctity of the regional pilots senority list by leapfrogging over others who were in line to secure a promotion by working their way up THEIR senority list? How would you feel if something like that happened to you? What your looking for is guarenteed employment for yourself at the expense of others and as I'm sure you found out by now, there is no such thing,at least in your chosen field. Sorry you career hasn't progressed as you had hoped for but as you so succinctly phrased it in your last response to me "welcome to aviation,kiddo."

 

[algflyr]

Dorf

Are you sure they have 90 yes commitments for the 26 slots?

Keep in mind that every pilot on the APL was sent that letter. There are almost 100 former CEL pilots on that list that received the letter. I am sure almost all of them will accept a 190 position. That would easily explain 90 yes commitments...

 

[chichi]

This is where the problem starts. The wholly owned pilots don't want you to flow down to a Captain seat, they want you to flow down to a new hire FO seat. That being said, is it any wonder there is no agreement?

Not TRUE. Let it be known that PDT pilots....not our crappy MEC, do not care about the provision for flow down. We want this to be worked out. Its unfortunate that our crappy MEC is screwing all of this for us. Let the MA guys be senior to us, and let the US guys flow down to a CA position. .....That is fine with PDT pilots.....screw our MEC.

 

[Rico]

Just a few thoughts:

1. Furloughedagain: Now you have a small taste of what I was talking about with the negative attitudes towards JFJ pilots. Now place that into a flowdown situation, in which you would supposedly carry more senority (for bidding rights) than the JFJ program provided... And imagine how much fun that would be.

2. PDT: Well IMO no one made a f-ing bit of real effort (when it mattered) to secure the right to return, for what would have been only a handful of furloughed pilots (all of whom had been flying at PDT only a year or two earlier). IMHO I doubt the overall reception would be as frosty as the welcome at PSA (As PDT tends to be a more mature pilot group), but who knows until push came to shove.

Would it be different if instead of being a sinking ship, PDT was in a growth phase with larger aircraft (Q400, CRJ-900)...? Hard to say.

3. I'd say the 90 figure is pretty close, being as a fair number of the people they polled are eager to leave Republic (when allowed), return to flying (if not), or have not secured a better job with another carrier...

Those who declined the offer at this time, may change that selection at a later date once the senority list arbitration is complete (and they have a better idea of where they stand), the pilot contracts are merged (someday), and the issue of longevity pay for time in service is resolved.

But this is why the company made this offer in the first place, to get an idea of what kind of recall rate to expect towads the bottom of the APL list (and AWA hiring pool).

 

[Crzipilot]

Yes, it will be very interesting to see what happens with the issue of longevity pay for time in service..... Where are you guys with that?

 

[Furloughedagain]

First off let's set the record straight.I do not work for USAir or any of the W/O regional carriers that have the poor misfortune of being owned by them . I'm just not that stupid.

Well. Our argument over the politics of flowthrough aside, i'm impressed that your crystal ball has functioned with such clarity.

Mine offered no such vision. Guess I just had to go with old-fashioned metrics when looking at which airline to apply. At US Airways that meant an airline that was hiring 100 pilots per month, had just made a widebody order, and where I would spend the last decade of my career in the top ten on the seniority list.

Maybe you should market yourself as a career counselor and direct poor misguided pilots to airlines that will yield a rich, 30+ year career, and six figure retirement. Like yours I presume? Who was it you said you worked for again?

 

[Dorf]

I said that if there ever was a bi-directional flow through, it should be a two way flow between the mainline company and its wholly owned regional to the respective right seats of each carrier only. Why should you bump some regional pilot out of his left seat just because you got furloughed from your mainline position,especially if he spent more time on that property than you?

CV

Are you saying that pilots who were CAPTAINS for 15+ years at PDT/ALG/PSA, who flow through to mainline, and then get furloughed should go back to the right seat instead of going back to their captain seat? If so, I'm sure those pilots are glad you don't work for U or any WO, we have enough people already that think the way you do, which is the problem instead of a solution.

 

[fr8tmastr]

Any true flow thru essentially makes one seniority list. With the larger aircraft the better paying and senior planes. What this comes down to is the WO pilots are now (with a real flow) junior to the ML pilots. This is why a furloughed ML pilot would be senior at a WO.

Just look at it as one big list

 

[TBONEJ4J]

First off let's set the record straight.I do not work for USAir or any of the W/O regional carriers that have the poor misfortune of being owned by them . I'm just not that stupid.

Therefore, somebody must be stupid to work for USAir or PDT or PSA?

Well, if you have been at the US Air Group for over 6 years or so, things turned out pretty poorly after you got hired. Who knew, it's all a roll of the dice!

But, if you're one of the junior jet jockeys (with great expectations) who got hired at PSA after that, or one of the more humble junior prop jockeys at PDT - well, that might not have been such a smart move.

 

[320driver]

Therefore, somebody must be stupid to work for USAir or PDT or PSA?

Well, if you have been at the US Air Group for over 6 years or so, things turned out pretty poorly after you got hired. Who knew, it's all a roll of the dice!

But, if you're one of the junior jet jockeys (with great expectations) who got hired at PSA after that, or one of the more humble junior prop jockeys at PDT - well, that might not have been such a smart move.

I have a question The post is West side hiring pilots for 190 does these slots come from our bullshit abiriation award or from the East slots.