West side hiring pilots for 190?
- Thread starter flycrazy77
- Start date
Elevation
Veteran
- Oct 21, 2002
- 869
- 32
Begging for a job is so unbecoming...on second thought, you'll fit right in at USAir.
Are you refering to the J4J program?
livinthedream
Newbie
- Aug 20, 2006
- 8
- 0
I think thats the point, Midatlantic was operated on the Mainline certificate. And about 100 or so "flowed up" to to Midatlantic, therefore Mainline. If it existed back then, it sure does now, nothing has changed.
Where are the 100 now? Did they flow down? If there is indeed a flow-through, then there must have been a flow down when US Airways furloughed all the Embraer Division pilots in 2005 and 2006?
I don't know of anybody who flowed down to a wholly owned carrier. If somebody did, then the wholly-owneds need to make some noise because that would definitely indicate a flow-through exists.
The restructuring intended a flow to MDA only. As it turned out MDA was in fact only a mainline fleet type, not a separate operation. Now it's not even a separate fleet type.
The '100 or so' were hired at mainline in 2004. They were 'eligible' for mainline positions and were hired to fly the Embraer Division aircraft. If you think otherwise, see the arbitration briefs for the seniority integration with arbitrator Nicolau. This is the position of US Airways and AAA ALPA.
There is no MDA, there is no flow-through.
Hawkhunter
Veteran
- Jul 11, 2005
- 577
- 521
If it wasnt for the J4J you wouldnt of gotten the Replacement Jet. Like idiots we gave up our scope protection so you could get Replacement Jets and take our jobs. As a result mainline parked over a hundred jets. You guys should kiss every J4J guys a$$ you see.
Elevation
Veteran
- Oct 21, 2002
- 869
- 32
8 of them are at PSA right now!! so I guess flow does exist.
tesgrig: I will agree with you. Scope should have never been given up by the mainline carriers. If everything that had more than 50 seats or a turbofan engine on it was flown by the mainline carrier, then alot of this would be a mute point. However what is done is done and we can not go back and change the past.
Lets set a few things straight.
There was no flow thru.No document, means no actual flow. The best way to describe what actually happened is that US Airways hired internal pilot canidates from a subsidiary. That's it.
It was not the "traditional" manner in which new hires are screened and brought onboard, but that's what happened.
In IMO the company decided it was not worth the cost and effort to resurrect the hiring apparatus only to staff co-pilots for the E-170. IMO They had gone through the APL, and had decided that it would no longer provide enough furloughees willing (or able, if held at a JFJ position) to return for what the E-170 right seat payed.
So the company took it upon themselves to hire internal canidates from it's regional subsidiaries. They took it upon themselves to utilize the basic outline of what WOULD have been a Flow Thru (if it had been signed). IMO this was done because it was easy, quick, and provided adequate F/O staffing for what was a high aircraft delivery rate. But it did not put them under any obligation to continue since nothing was in writing
The truth of the matter is that when push came to shove, the reality of the situation was that there was no real procedure in place, no real agreement, and no bi-directional flow. The proof of this was is that when it was not in the company's interest to allow a flow back (causing displacement + incurring training costs), then the sham of there being a flow was uncovered.
So the best way to think of the situation is that those internal canidates that came over to fly the E-170 from PDT/ALG were "2004/2005 mainline newhires"... On the AAA Senority List, furloughed onto the APL list, and eligible for recall to the mainline.
But just like a mainline newhire (formerly at a wholly owned) from the previous "off the street" hiring, these pilots have no rights to return to their old position (outside of the negotiated JFJ positions availiable to APL pilots).
Clear...?
Before you say "well, why not now...?", understand that it is a totally different situation.
First off, there is not an excess of subsidiary pilots (like there was when ALG was put to pasture). Taking pilots from the subsidiaries now will require those pilots to be replaced (read = $$$).
Second, the mainline will require the pilot hiring machine to be turned back on for all positions in the near future anyways, so nothing is saved on this by using subsidiary pilots (again).
Third, if an actual flow agreement IS signed this time, that opens the company up to having to allow a possible flow back someday (read = $$$).
And Fourth, the E-190 delivery rate has been far slower than the E-170's were brought onto the property. There is not such a urgent demand for E-190 First Officers (as there was for the E-170 back in '04). They only estimate a need for an addition 26 for the rest of this year...
Basically the "window of opportunity" came and went, as it was a strange and rare occurance of the planets all lining up to create what happened in 2004 and 2005. US Airways has changed, and I seriously doubt that the company will ever see it in their interests again to hire internally (when "off the street" is now considered a cheaper and easier option)...
Cold Hard Financial Reality
There was no flow thru.
It was not the "traditional" manner in which new hires are screened and brought onboard, but that's what happened.
In IMO the company decided it was not worth the cost and effort to resurrect the hiring apparatus only to staff co-pilots for the E-170. IMO They had gone through the APL, and had decided that it would no longer provide enough furloughees willing (or able, if held at a JFJ position) to return for what the E-170 right seat payed.
So the company took it upon themselves to hire internal canidates from it's regional subsidiaries. They took it upon themselves to utilize the basic outline of what WOULD have been a Flow Thru (if it had been signed). IMO this was done because it was easy, quick, and provided adequate F/O staffing for what was a high aircraft delivery rate. But it did not put them under any obligation to continue since nothing was in writing
The truth of the matter is that when push came to shove, the reality of the situation was that there was no real procedure in place, no real agreement, and no bi-directional flow. The proof of this was is that when it was not in the company's interest to allow a flow back (causing displacement + incurring training costs), then the sham of there being a flow was uncovered.
So the best way to think of the situation is that those internal canidates that came over to fly the E-170 from PDT/ALG were "2004/2005 mainline newhires"... On the AAA Senority List, furloughed onto the APL list, and eligible for recall to the mainline.
But just like a mainline newhire (formerly at a wholly owned) from the previous "off the street" hiring, these pilots have no rights to return to their old position (outside of the negotiated JFJ positions availiable to APL pilots).
Clear...?
Before you say "well, why not now...?", understand that it is a totally different situation.
First off, there is not an excess of subsidiary pilots (like there was when ALG was put to pasture). Taking pilots from the subsidiaries now will require those pilots to be replaced (read = $$$).
Second, the mainline will require the pilot hiring machine to be turned back on for all positions in the near future anyways, so nothing is saved on this by using subsidiary pilots (again).
Third, if an actual flow agreement IS signed this time, that opens the company up to having to allow a possible flow back someday (read = $$$).
And Fourth, the E-190 delivery rate has been far slower than the E-170's were brought onto the property. There is not such a urgent demand for E-190 First Officers (as there was for the E-170 back in '04). They only estimate a need for an addition 26 for the rest of this year...
Basically the "window of opportunity" came and went, as it was a strange and rare occurance of the planets all lining up to create what happened in 2004 and 2005. US Airways has changed, and I seriously doubt that the company will ever see it in their interests again to hire internally (when "off the street" is now considered a cheaper and easier option)...
Cold Hard Financial Reality
That is J4J, not a flow. Big difference
I'm guessing you don't understand the all important difference between having an actual signed agreeement (JFJ) in place, vs. not having a signed agreement (flow thru)...
Like I said, those pilots newhired to the Mainline in 2004/5 are eligible for the same rights as any other former ALG/PDT/PSA pilot (that was able to get a pilot position when US Airways last hired off the street).
They are both on the AAA senority list, both placed on the APL List when furloughed from the Mainline, and both are eligble for avail. JFJ positions.
Deal with it.
I think the source of your misunderstanding is that you forget HALF of ALL of those RJ positions belong to the Mainline pilots, not you.
Only when the mainline pilots no longer want, nor need those positions do they become avail to your pilot group, and ONLY then. Stop assuming they "belong" to you.
As long as you operate those planes (under the exemption the Mainline pilots gave you) those seats belong to us. If yet another future furlough occurs, those pilots hiring on to the mainline (in the near future) will have the same right to your future open positions too (if they are furloughed from mainline).
That's just the way it is. Nothing is for free in this world Kid, esp. shiny new jets...
Get used to it.
Hawk I don't fly an rj and as for kissing every j4j guy I see, I don't go that way so I guess I will leave it up to you.
Well, I'll be.......
If they flowed down, then there is a flow-through.
Aibus and Boeing seats for everybody! (But 1600 or so are reserved right now, so give it a few years eh)
when was attachment B of the mainline restructuring agreement not signed which provided "flow between carriers"? Also have you read the small jet restructuring agreement? I don't recall an rj exemption agreement could that be something you just made up.
17 year allegheny pilots going to MDA you are absolutely correct "Nothing is for free kid" it just comes as a $35,000 a year pay cut.... yea shiny jet syndrome at its finest, and i'm not even a doctor.
