West side hiring pilots for 190?

[Crzipilot]

IF there was a flow in place....then ALLLLL of the people at MDA could have FLOWED down to PSA, and dumped those new hire f/o's on the street. THAT is a flow down. The 8 that came over came over via the J4J program, and only then did they BACKFILL vacancies which were opened by Previous J4J's that left. AT one time there were 120 or so J4J's at PSA there are now about 70, and 80% of them are held.

My guess is a few of those one here, have been at PSA for a short short time, compared to anyone else, but they see the flow as their god giving right, because they should be flying left seat of the A350, because THEY gave up their seats........I love it....

You gave seats, for the jets, you wanted the jets, you sold out the other WO's for those jets. Then when the JJ's came on property, it was b*8** that b***ch this, along with the scab word and such thrown around. It got even worse with the MDA guys that came here.

Like I said if there was a flow down, then those 1st year f/o's wouldn't be on the property, (well they would 'cause they are so short) but you get the drift. You dealt with 8 MDA guys comeing on property, and now your upgrading 6/month maybe more,

 

[flycrazy77]

Not to burst any bubbles, but J4J has nothing to do with flow-through. J4J is a program that makes 50% of jobs available in an expansion/replacement aircraft to a AAA ALPA Furloughed pilot. AAA ALPA gave scope relief to the company and J4J was the price, among other things. J4J is an employment program, not a flow program. :down:

There is no flow-through. There was only ever flow to MidAtlantic, but since it doesn't exist (and apparently never did, at least as originally conceived) there is no flow.

I recall the restructuring agreement made provision for wholly-owned pilots being eligible for positions at the mainline. Now whether that means you get an application form like everybody else who asks for one, or an interview, I don't know. It's very loose language, because anybody in the universe who meets the hiring mins is eligible. But there is certainly no flow to US Airways and there never was.

You're obviously clueless when it comes to the contract. Flow-through for WO pilots IS, in fact, written in the contract. Don't waste your time addressing forums that you have no clue about. If the contract is ignored, lawyers will be all over this sh*t. Whether it happens this year or next, it will happen. And...in one way or another even the MidAtlantic guys will get put right back where they belong: lined up by their original seniority amongst the current WO pilots. As it should be.

 

[EMBFA]

Why? "MidAtlantic" pilots are no longer "WO'd" pilots, they are simply mainline furloughees now. They have nothing to do with the WOs anymore unless they take a J4J position. They became mainline pilots, were furloughed, and will get the opportunity to come back to mainline.

 

[Sig]

You gave seats, for the jets, you wanted the jets, you sold out the other WO's for those jets.

Don't let facts get in the way. Piedmont and Allegheny were under the impression that the case you state is exactly what happened.

Until, of course, Beebe admitted he and the company engineered the solution (PSA getting the jets) from day one, no matter HOW much in concessions the other two WOs agreed to. This wasn't PSA selling out, it was something much, much worse. An MEC worked in collusion with USAirways to cause harm (concessions) to other ALPA dues-paying members (ie, under the umbra of DFR and the penumbra of common decency), facilitating the lie that PSA sold out.

 

[Crzipilot]

That's a new one

 

[tesgrig]

That's a new one

This is not new at all beebe admitted to this under questioning.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If the contract is ignored, lawyers will be all over this sh*t.

Lawyers are never "all over" anything unless $$$ are involved...for them.

 

[flynomore]

Hawk I don't fly an rj and as for kissing every j4j guy I see, I don't go that way so I guess I will leave it up to you.

==================================================

I'd kiss Yvonne.

 

[Rico]

when was attachment B of the mainline restructuring agreement not signed which provided "flow between carriers"? Also have you read the small jet restructuring agreement? I don't recall an rj exemption agreement could that be something you just made up.

Nice try, but all that was said is that some kind of (bi-directional) flow would eventually be negotiated. Not that one "now" existed (at the time in which the restructuring agreement was signed).

Unless you have been under a rock, you should already know that ongoing "negotiations" have taken place. But you can fake negotiate until you are blue in the face... Unless you finish, with an actual signed agreement (by all parties), then there is nothing to show for it.

The only thing that even comes close is the JFJ program, in which half the open positions in NEW small jets would be made avail to those furloughed AAA pilots on the APL List.

But that's not the same thing as Bi-Directional flow, is it...?

It's just a trade for allowing scope relief in return for half of the positons your new growth would produce. It does not allow your pilots to "move up" into a new job. Just forces you to offer some jobs to those pilots displaced by the transfer of large jet flying to small jets on your certificate.

17 year allegheny pilots going to MDA you are absolutely correct "Nothing is for free kid" it just comes as a $35,000 a year pay cut.... yea shiny jet syndrome at its finest, and i'm not even a doctor.

Really...? Not a single pilot I know of, including myself, thought this when we made our choice to come over.

I saw it as a chance to leave the regionals, start at a major airline, at a 40K/year salary, without probation.

Feel free to browse through the various pilot job websites, see what pay is offered to newhires, and you might start to understand why it had nothing to do with flying a new jet, and everyting to do with moving ahead with my career (in the same way as if I had hired on at say... jetBlue)

I did what I did to get a better job, not fly a new jet. But it was my choice, and I accept the pros and cons of having made that decision.

But thanks for backing up my point with your 2nd reply...

My situation is different from that PSA pilot because I accept responsibility for my decision, he/she does not. I knew that flying the E-170 would mean getting paid less, sitting right seat, and an uncertain future. I sold my new truck, bought a cheaper house, and made it work.

He/She is just upset, that he/she has had to share even a fraction of the windfall the PSA pilot group has reaped. Boo-hoo-hoo that they did not get 100% of the new positions, in larger, better paying, jet aircraft (that doubled their fleet)... He/She decided to work at PSA, and the PSA pilots chose (twice) to agree to the JFJ program. He/She needs to count his/herself lucky for the way it turned out, and stop expecting anything more.

It's the misplaced sense of entitlement that kid has now that I went after, not the understandable choice to play it safe that many of the Wholly Owned pilots made back in 2004/5.

I'm sorry that PDT has withered away since I left, I would never have wished that upon my old co-workers. But the writing was on the wall back then IMO, and that is why I signed up for the first class offered to us.

Hope this helps you better understand the other side of the picture.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The only thing that even comes close is the JFJ program, in which half the open positions in NEW small jets would be made avail to those furloughed AAA pilots on the APL List.

In other words, the regionals were incidental beneficiaries to a contract between AAA pilots and management. Their incidental beneficiary status gave them no rights at all, just a gratuitous benefit which for the most part could be modified or taken away by the contracting parties. There are ways for an incidental beneficiary's rights to vest, but none are likely to be present here. And whatever rights the regionals had with respect to the J4J/Scope agreement, the regionals would have to show that among those vested rights was a flow-up. The only way the J4J regionals could argue there is a flow through was if they were a part of the original agreement. Even if they were contracting parties, then the agreement had better spell out the flow-up provision and it appears there is no language at all concerning a flow-up.

 

[Rico]

Don't let facts get in the way. Piedmont and Allegheny were under the impression that the case you state is exactly what happened.

Until, of course, Beebe admitted he and the company engineered the solution (PSA getting the jets) from day one, no matter HOW much in concessions the other two WOs agreed to. This wasn't PSA selling out, it was something much, much worse. An MEC worked in collusion with USAirways to cause harm (concessions) to other ALPA dues-paying members (ie, under the umbra of DFR and the penumbra of common decency), facilitating the lie that PSA sold out.

So what you are saying, is that you ALL got owned.

Here's an important little tidbit you left out.

The US Airways Master Executive Council DOES NOT REPRESENT YOUR INTERESTS, ONLY THE INTERESTS OF THE US AIRWAYS PILOTS.

If they work with the company to screw you so far into the ground, your feet are all that remains sticking out, then so long as they have acted in the best interests of the Mainline pilots, then they have still done their job.

If you think anything else, then you are naive beyond all reason.

It really doesn't matter if it was more of a case of the PSA MEC being stupid/easily manipulated, rather than grabbing the "prize" before the ALG or PDT MEC's... The end result is exactly the same.

 

[Rico]

In other words, the regionals were incidental beneficiaries to a contract between AAA pilots and management. Their incidental beneficiary status gave them no rights at all, just a gratuitous benefit which for the most part could be modified or taken away by the contracting parties. There are ways for an incidental beneficiary's rights to vest, but none are likely to be present here. And whatever rights the regionals had with respect to the J4J/Scope agreement, the regionals would have to show that among those vested rights was a flow-up. The only way the J4J regionals could argue there is a flow through was if they were a part of the original agreement. Even if they were contracting parties, then the agreement had better spell out the flow-up provision and it appears there is no language at all concerning a flow-up.

Restated in "Lawyer-talk"..., yes.

Basically the company decided to hire internally from the wholly owned subsidiary regionals, rather than start up the tradional "apply/interview/select" pilot hiring process.

The internal canidates were hired onto the mainline property, utilizing the basic outline of what a possible flow through program would have been.

The Mainline's Pilot Union did not object, nor did the Subsidiary Pilot Unions demand that their rights be protected in writing before any internal canidates transferred over to the Mainline.

So a situation existed, at THAT time, that was in the best interests of the Company, Mainline ALPA, and (truth be told) the wholly owned pilots too... But IMHO it was not the same thing as a signed, and enforcable letter of agreement between the various parties.

And that is why you cannot claim there "was" a flow through. Because neither a signed document existed, nor a "flow down" of the recent newhires (to their former positions + senority with their previous employer) occurred...

Simple as that.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Interesting - the process came after the signed agreement. It sounds like nobody knew exactly how the process would work at the time the agreement was signed and it just sort of evolved into the easiest and most convenient way possible for the company. It seems doubtful then that anybody can rely on the fact that a subsequent process resembling a flow-up actually created a right to flow-up. This flow-up idea is a dead issue and probably a waste of bandwith in discussing any further.

 

[Rico]

Interesting - the process came after the signed agreement. It sounds like nobody knew exactly how the process would work at the time the agreement was signed and it just sort of evolved into the easiest and most convenient way possible for the company. It seems doubtful then that anybody can rely on the fact that a subsequent process resembling a flow-up actually created a right to flow-up. This flow-up idea is a dead issue and probably a waste of bandwith in discussing any further.

Well, it is not a total waste, as it is a lesson learned, that if something is not in writing, then it does not mean %^#$.

I agree though, that unique situation, where hiring internal pilot canidates, was in the combinded interests of the various parties is unlikely to reoccur.

As such, there is much to overcome before a future bi-directional flow through agreement is ever signed and made real.

 

[algflyr]

You're obviously clueless when it comes to the contract. Flow-through for WO pilots IS, in fact, written in the contract. Don't waste your time addressing forums that you have no clue about. If the contract is ignored, lawyers will be all over this sh*t. Whether it happens this year or next, it will happen. And...in one way or another even the MidAtlantic guys will get put right back where they belong: lined up by their original seniority amongst the current WO pilots. As it should be.

I wouldn't be to sure about that. You see, yes there is language in LOA 91 that addresses a flow. But the problem is that LOA 91 is attached to the AAA contract. And guess what? That's gonna go away soon. When the new joint contract is in place, LOA 91 will be dead. The only way to make it survive is to add it onto the new joint contract. I doubt you will ever convince management to do that... When a new contract is signed, the lawyers won't be able to help...