West side hiring pilots for 190?

[N823js]

I wouldn't be to sure about that. You see, yes there is language in LOA 91 that addresses a flow. But the problem is that LOA 91 is attached to the AAA contract. And guess what? That's gonna go away soon. When the new joint contract is in place, LOA 91 will be dead. The only way to make it survive is to add it onto the new joint contract. I doubt you will ever convince management to do that... When a new contract is signed, the lawyers won't be able to help...

Yea right. You guys are going to get a new contract straight away. Doogie is all over it.

LOA 91 will be in effect long after all the 190's are on the property.

From LOA 91.

Flows between Carriers
• Following the recall of all furloughed US
Airways pilots, pilots employed by a
Participating Wholly Owned Carrier shall be
eligible to flow through to any new-hire US
Airways pilot positions in order of their
seniority position on the integrated seniority
list of pilots of Wholly Owned Carriers
(“Wholly Owned Pilot Seniority List”).

• Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly
Owned Carrier who become MDA pilots or
US Airways pilots under this Attachment B,
may flow back to their respective
Participating Wholly Owned Carriers. US
Airways pilots employed by MDA, if
furloughed from MDA, may displace into
positions at Participating Wholly Owned
Carriers in order of their seniority as US
Airways pilots in accordance with the Flow
Through Letter of Agreement (LOA #___)
to be agreed to by the Company and the
Association.

 

[N823js]

The US Airways Master Executive Council DOES NOT REPRESENT YOUR INTERESTS, ONLY THE INTERESTS OF THE US AIRWAYS PILOTS.

If they work with the company to screw you so far into the ground, your feet are all that remains sticking out, then so long as they have acted in the best interests of the Mainline pilots, then they have still done their job

This statement represents everything that's wrong with ALPA.

I can not fathom why some people on this board have it in for the wholey owned pilots.

What is it going to cost any mainline pilot to allow a wholey owned pilot to flow into an EMB190 position?

As long as you buy into the idea that the wholey owned pilots are not part of US Airways. Management will always have the upper hand.

Yes, The US Airways MEC represents only the interests of the US Airways pilots and of course "the wholey owned pilots are not US Air."

Whatever. Just don't be giving me any of that ALPA brother crap.

The next time you wonder what happened to that good airline job with a pension and benefits you aspired to. Look in the mirror.

 

[tesgrig]

rico you sure do use the term IMHO alot could it be because you dont speak the true facts, only your OPPINION.

 

[fr8tmastr]

From LOA 91.

Flows between Carriers
• Following the recall of all furloughed US
Airways pilots, pilots employed by a
Participating Wholly Owned Carrier shall be
eligible to flow through to any new-hire US
Airways pilot positions in order of their
seniority position on the integrated seniority
list of pilots of Wholly Owned Carriers
(“Wholly Owned Pilot Seniority Listâ€￾).

• Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly
Owned Carrier who become MDA pilots or
US Airways pilots under this Attachment B,
may flow back to their respective
Participating Wholly Owned Carriers. US
Airways pilots employed by MDA, if
furloughed from MDA, may displace into
positions at Participating Wholly Owned
Carriers in order of their seniority as US
Airways pilots in accordance with the Flow
Through Letter of Agreement (LOA #___)
to be agreed to by the Company and the
Association.

One word in that first paragraph that needs to be recognized is the word ELIGIBLE. Who defines what that means exactly?

 

[Rico]

This statement represents everything that's wrong with ALPA.

I can not fathom why some people on this board have it in for the wholey owned pilots.

What is it going to cost any mainline pilot to allow a wholey owned pilot to flow into an EMB190 position?

As long as you buy into the idea that the wholey owned pilots are not part of US Airways. Management will always have the upper hand.

Yes, The US Airways MEC represents only the interests of the US Airways pilots and of course "the wholey owned pilots are not US Air."

Whatever. Just don't be giving me any of that ALPA brother crap.

The next time you wonder what happened to that good airline job with a pension and benefits you aspired to. Look in the mirror.

Hmmm, where to start...

1. I stated the fact that Bebe, and any other US Airways MEC Officer's only duty is to the pilots he/she represents, as a counter statement to the assertion that they have some sort of legal responsibility to further/or protect the interests of the subsidiary pilots. That is dead wrong.

2. It does not mean that they are out to "get you", but it does mean that in most cases they will look at anything to do with your pilot groups, with a "what's in it for me" filter...

3. Some people on this board are quite upset at at the actions (and inactions) of a small number of Wholly Owned pilots (and they know who they are), that does not mean that we are upset at all of them.

But one thing is for sure, we DONT want to hear some junior PSA pilot crying about how screwed he/she is because a handful of furloughed mainline pilots turned his super-fast upgrade into only a fast upgrade. <_<

4. If you want a better perspective on how you are viewed by mainline pilots, the best example is how you view the other Wholly Owned. You might be part of the same overall organization, but you are not in the same company. Otherwise you would gain when they gain, and lose when they lose. You would share common goals, and reap common benefits.

You talk the brotherhood talk, but do you walk the walk...?

Do you think the PDT pilots are thrilled that PSA got all the jets, and they have shrunk...? Do you think that the PSA pilots would be happy to see the PDT pilots get 50 new DHC-8/Q400's, if it meant that PSA would have to park all of their 50 seat RJ fleet...?

5. Face it, it does not cost a mainline pilot anything to have a wholly owned pilot flow into the right seat of the E-190. Take my word for it, that they were very welcoming to us when we joined them in the E-170's cockpit, and when they saw that we were not willing to screw them when offfered the first Republic positions, we then stuck together and fought for one another right up to this very day.

But in many of the mainline pilot's opinion's (mine included), there is nothing to gain from having the wholly owned pilots flow up into the E-190 either.

Take a look back at this thread and you might see the reason why. Do you think that the active pilots have not noticed what has happened to those of us that were furloughed...?

Heard the comments about furloughed "scabs" taking JFJ jobs from your pilots...

Talked about how it seems that the wholly owneds are super cool with flowing up, but when the prospect of having to displace for, or allow a new JFJ positon to go to the former wholly owned pilots recently furloughed from the E-170 ----> That all we got (and still get) was static... :down:

Well, it makes us realize that the mainline pilots have gotten better treatment from the Affiliate Carriers than from the wholly owneds. Guess who wants a newhire job, vs. who is "demanding" a flow through...?

5. The next time you wonder what happened to that flow through you aspired to. Look in the mirror.

rico you sure do use the term IMHO alot could it be because you dont speak the true facts, only your OPPINION.

No, it is because I am not a lawyer, and I am only offering an opinion on an internet chat board.

That does not mean that I am wrong, it just means that I do not feel like opening myself up to become liable for stating anything other than my opinion.

I suggest you do the same.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

What is it going to cost any mainline pilot to allow a wholey owned pilot to flow into an EMB190 position?

And how is it going to benefit any mainline pilot to allow a flow-through?

Like any negotiation, if you have nothing to give, don't expect to get anything.

Forget about the non-existent Flow-Through. If you really want a shot at the 190, then get preferential hiring from management. No ALPA required.

In a time of pilot shortage, particularly in regard to the highly experienced PDT/ALG guys (clearly the Dash is going away), US Airways would have a ready supply of highly experienced new hires.

Preferential hiring is the way to go.

Not sure how much experience the children at PSA have, but once the ALG/PDT guys get on, then they can have a shot at it too. 😛

 

[livinthedream]

Thats been the issue of the wholly owned since the begining. We have nothing to offer, you want to fly the the oldest Dash8 in service in the country???? Our management has nothing to offer either, they are just middle management collecting a pay check by squeezing everything they can our of our operation and our paychecks.

But we do have a signed agreement in LOA 91. The flow back was NEVER finished, why, because just like the flow up, NO ONE ever thought it would happen. Our guys sit around and wait for ML ALPA to call us so we can finish the flow back. Our managment sits around and waits for Tempe to make a decsion about us. We get it...Your in charge!!!

So here we are going at it on some web board, while Doug Parker just gave himself another bonus and announced another VP for Airways. Just what we need more chiefs, less indians!!!

As far as Beebe goes, If I remember correctly he was also a national ALPA officer, and in that role he had at least some moral obligation not to let management dangle a carrot that did not exist. Maybe he saw the J4J program as a way of protecting us because of the flow through, I don't know. But at this point, all PDT has going for it is flow through.

As for the benefit of having WO pilots flow through, it seems simple to me, last I checked, we are all ALPA. And no matter how much you hate those "commuters", we carry alot of people. And if we are all just "doing our job" and acted unifed and not divided, I would think the message to Tempe would be even louder. I think between the two WO there are about 1,000 pilots. You ever see the news when the truck drivers in Europe are pissed. They shut it down, and hard!!!!

You guys want things to get better, and so do we. So can't we just hold hands and sing Kumbyya(sp)

 

[Elevation]

What about Air Wisconsin? They put some serious money into AAA when they need to stay alive ($125m which is more than WO bring to the bottom line in 5yrs+), they are also ALPA, have a seat on the board and own about 13% of LCC. Pref hiring for them or flow through?

 

[Rico]

You guys want things to get better, and so do we. So can't we just hold hands and sing Kumbyya(sp)

IMO most Mainline pilots see little reason in having a flow through, because the Wholly Owned pilots have created the impression that they are unwilling to accept a flow back.

Sure, they have "said" they are cool with a flow back, but recent actions/inactions have spoken louder than words.

Take for example the PSA grievence against allowing furloughed E-170 pilots their right to bid into open JFJ RJ positions at PSA.

Or the many stories of open resentment, poor treatment, and hostile attitudes for the other furloughed mainline pilots at PSA...

How do you think the average mainline pilot views that...?


I'll tell ya.


Who gives a crap about having a flow back, if you have to endure a hostile working enviorment, and attitudes of entitlement from your new co-workers...? :angry:

Ask yourself this. would you want to go work at the other Wholly Owned if you had to put up with that...?

If JFJ at PSA was such a bad experience for many of our pilots, what makes you think the mainline pilots want to do a flow back into a wholly owned instead...?

So it makes the idea of a flow through seem one sided, "flow up only"... <_<

That's why most IMO many Mainline pilots have gone from neutral/positive, to against/unwilling to have a so called bi-directional flow.

 

[Furloughedagain]

I was hired in early 99 and furloughed in early 2002...

I never participated in J4J...

I have no immediate intention to accept recall to US Airways...

But i'll tell you this:

I will be first in line to accept recall to US Airways if a bidirectional flowthrough is signed.

The ultimate furlough protection - A flowback to the left-seat of PSA aircraft. Hundreds of wholly-owned "furlough insurance" positions acting as a cushion should mainline downsize, or I be the victim of another multi-year training float.

Sign me up.

 

[ItsJustAJob]

This is where the problem starts. The wholly owned pilots don't want you to flow down to a Captain seat, they want you to flow down to a new hire FO seat. That being said, is it any wonder there is no agreement?

 

[livinthedream]

Resentment...Can't speak for PSA, don't work there. But the J4J program had that written all over it, especially at the WO where the pilot group numbers have been stagnant or gone down by half(PDT/ALG).

I voted against J4J because I thought it was a bad idea. But 56% at ALG thought it was a good idea, so here we are.

I guess we'll see what happens after most of the furloughed guys turn down the E190 FO slots. They will have fill those slots somehow, and if it is from the street, then I will gladly pay my assesment for the ensuing lawsuit.

 

[Dorf]

I guess we'll see what happens after most of the furloughed guys turn down the E190 FO slots. They will have fill those slots somehow, and if it is from the street, then I will gladly pay my assesment for the ensuing lawsuit.

You won't have to pay anytime soon....they have received over 90 yes commitments for the 26 slots.

 

[kie8nunu]

You won't have to pay anytime soon....they have received over 90 yes commitments for the 26 slots.

Dorf

Are you sure they have 90 yes commitments for the 26 slots? My question is sincere as I am an early 99 hire, I passed on the first group 2 recall because the timing was wrong for me, but now I'm planning to accept a group 2 recall when the 130 recalls from the July bid are called. Do you know the seniority breakdown of the 90 that are going to accept the e-190? I currently plan on passing on the 190 recall(just received the certified mail for that one today) but I need to gather as much info as I can to avoid making the assumption that I'm going to be able to hold a slot in this next group 2 recall. After the most recent recall I have about 450 pilots senior to me on the furlough list (and about 1000 junior to me). Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

B

 

[CV580ETOPS]

I was hired in early 99 and furloughed in early 2002...

I never participated in J4J...

I have no immediate intention to accept recall to US Airways...

But i'll tell you this:

I will be first in line to accept recall to US Airways if a bidirectional flowthrough is signed.

The ultimate furlough protection - A flowback to the left-seat of PSA aircraft. Hundreds of wholly-owned "furlough insurance" positions acting as a cushion should mainline downsize, or I be the victim of another multi-year training float.

Sign me up.

..and therein lies the rub. YOU want to "flow back to the left seat of a PSA aircraft"in the event of furlough while THEY get to flow up into a mainline F/O slot,if indeed you guys are hiring (fat chance at this point).If you want to reach some sort of consensus on flow through it should be flow down to right seat positions only. After all isn't that the seat you were offering to the W/O guys and gals who were interested in flow through at one time? Right seat positions? Why should they be restricted to right seat positions only at your airline when you get left seat positions at their's? With that kind of thinking I can understand why the J4J guys are despised by some of the PSA pilots. Can't say I blame them.